Our uniqueness

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Enlightened2B
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by Enlightened2B » Fri May 22, 2020 1:39 am

axetenuz wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:46 am
When the pronoun "you" starts getting used too much, usually with pointy fingers, it is that unpleasant reaction one was speaking about earlier. Reactions that most likely come out of dogmatism and cognitive dissonance (inability to meet the new because the eyes are the old), which is why one tries to avoid using the pronoun "I" as you might have noticed, unless linguistic meaning requires its usage. It takes away some of that sting/separation between the "you and the "i". One has never been too interested in pointy fingers but more in discussing over serious issues as one would with a friend even though they might have never met. This is a most basic requirement in the art of having a dialogue.
Just a friendly observation here

Relationships have been my greatest teachers. Yes, conflict is going to happen on this forum. But, who is the one that says...."that's not ok?"

Rather than avoiding the conversation when there is a disagreement, or even a mis-understanding, the greatest expansion and growth for me happens when two people can be intimate and open with each other in a conversation about what came up for each of them internally during conversation. Even if one or both are triggered in some way. It's just part of being human my friend and it's ok.

I shared an open somewhat vulnerable experience of myself in the comment above and my perspective on uniqueness, and instead of responding to that, you chose to question my experience of terms like presence or Awareness that I was using, which had nothing to do with our conversation? You went into guru mode and I don't know why explaining where inquiry needed to happen. But, I was not asking for that. But, I was merely sharing what uniqueness feels like to me.

Naturally that's going to irritate me as it did, because I feel mis-attuned. Nor was I asking the other person to play the role of guru, but simply asking them to meet me. But, what I do love is vulnerability. When someone is vulnerable, it makes it easier for me to be vulnerable :)

Part of being human is sharing in vulnerability. Using human brain logic to bypass vulnerability only creates more separation and is quite the opposite of true non-duality.

Spirituality has largely become an embodied process for me. True non-duality has been the experience of embracing, and holding the internal ones who feel hurt for me, which has helped me to share more openly with others vulnerably, because I was able to meet the pain inside. I'm still working with this and am not perfect.

None of us are perfect. But, the willingness to say...."this irritates me!" can go a long way sometimes, as opposed to pretending we're too enlightened and pretending we don't get emotionally triggered....via avoiding saying terms like "I" or "you". That doesn't sound very healthy or nourishing to me.

Nor is that going to make for good conversation on this forum going forward just as a pointer. Compassion, understanding and a willingness to meet someone....on the other hand will go a long way in enhancing conversation even if there is grave disagreement.

This was supposed to be a fun, playful thread to explore possibilities beyond human logic and not take it all so seriously. That's all.

Thanks for your contributions to the conversation

axetenuz
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by axetenuz » Fri May 22, 2020 2:07 am

Early on when one became a member one'had stated one's astonishment at how posters here have taken it upon themselves to act the guru and go around giving advice. This can be seen in one's posting history. One has always prefaced his response to any questions asking for advice, that one is not giving advice and the reader should accept it with a grain of salt. This can also be seen in one's posting history. Therefore your latest "guru" argument also falls flat, similar to other arguments.

As should be obvious, one does have the capacity to destroy any disagreement easily, but does not go that way as there is no joy in that. There is only conflict. One has a distaste for conflict and finds it toxic.

"Humanity" isn't guaranteed by biology, it is grown into. Usually a person is born a reptile (reptilian tendencies) and at best a mammal.....but humanity is grown into. Like the word 'humane'.

One has said this to other posters and also said it to you, i find it challenging or rather do not find particular personal specifics/claims about anyone relevant while discussing topics that concern humanity at large. But understand the frailty/insecurities of human character at the base of these actions, and that is why had pointed to it earlier on. One also does not participate in playing patty cakes or scratching backs as it continues the neurosis of self deception.

I apologize, i wasn't playing. These are serious things that concern our lives. A dialogue isn't an entertainment for me, though many use it for that purpose.

Edit: As far as the progression of the discussion, one understands that it requires sight to be able to identify them, but just to highlight a few: one discussed the true nature of uniqueness, the difference between the known and the unknown, memory/programming, inquiring into the etymological meaning of words to understand their true meaning, dogmatism, passion, and few others. In short one adequately responded to everything you threw at me.
Last edited by axetenuz on Fri May 22, 2020 11:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by smiileyjen101 » Fri May 22, 2020 6:12 am

HI there E2B - must have heard you calling ;)
I'd like an intelligent discussion on incorporating the possibilities of.......what if there is a uniqueness to us that lives on beyond the body?
Maybe I'll come at it from the other end - before 'you' were, all of the 'unique' possibilities of you were already there ... yes?

Energy just knits together into temporary form, be that a thought, a sigh, a finger, a leg, a building, all and everything, a wave, a drop of water none of it is permanent but all of it exists eternally.

Next thought?
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

Enlightened2B
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by Enlightened2B » Fri May 22, 2020 5:19 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:12 am
HI there E2B - must have heard you calling ;)
Seriously! Ring ring :)
Maybe I'll come at it from the other end - before 'you' were, all of the 'unique' possibilities of you were already there ... yes?

Energy just knits together into temporary form, be that a thought, a sigh, a finger, a leg, a building, all and everything, a wave, a drop of water none of it is permanent but all of it exists eternally.

Next thought?
My brain loves the black and white meanings to things. It's just how I've always compartmentalized things throughout my life. And you've always been that breath of fresh air on this forum, to shake that shit up in me :)

Ok, but, I'll ask this.....
before 'you' were, all of the 'unique' possibilities of you were already there ... yes?
I'd be curious to know, maybe just for conversation purposes.....which 'you', this references? Meaning, is there actually a "before I am"?

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Webwanderer
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by Webwanderer » Fri May 22, 2020 9:13 pm

What comes to mind in the recent part of this discussion is the seemingly abuse of the word 'one'. What I get is an attempt at avoiding an acknowledgement of self. Or maybe I'm just not getting the point. I have often asserted that there is a distinction between the identification of what 'one' thinks he or she is, and the underlying self that is aware of that thinking. When one hears the often made suggestion to watch one's thoughts, what then is doing the watching?

Consider that thinking is the birth of identification in this world, and for that matter of ego. Take all that thought construction away and there is still awareness unique in its own perspective. While many assert the view that 'you' don't exist, it's hard to make that case when one considers self aware consciousness beyond any temporary identifiers.

WW

axetenuz
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by axetenuz » Fri May 22, 2020 10:53 pm

I thought the use of 'one' instead of the pronouns 'I' and 'you' was explained before but guess it requires attention to identify.

There are many ways by which violence expresses. The more obvious physical ways, and the many subtle ways. One of the subtle expression of violence especially during the use of language is excessive usage of the "I" and the "you" , usually accompanied with pointy fingers. I am not even mentioning the ugly emphasis on the separation/division by such usage. Therefore one tries to use the two pronouns as little as possible. Hope this clarifies.

Edit: From the progression of the discussion so far what comes to mind is the predictability of the shift from the points being discussed, to the person. This unhealthy fixation on people rather than the points they have brought to the table, perhaps indicates a deep conditioning towards subtle violence if the perception is one of 'losing'. One wonders how deep is this conditioning of competitiveness?

Enlightened2B
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by Enlightened2B » Fri May 22, 2020 11:52 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:13 pm
What comes to mind in the recent part of this discussion is the seemingly abuse of the word 'one'. What I get is an attempt at avoiding an acknowledgement of self. Or maybe I'm just not getting the point. I have often asserted that there is a distinction between the identification of what 'one' thinks he or she is, and the underlying self that is aware of that thinking. When one hears the often made suggestion to watch one's thoughts, what then is doing the watching?

Consider that thinking is the birth of identification in this world, and for that matter of ego. Take all that thought construction away and there is still awareness unique in its own perspective. While many assert the view that 'you' don't exist, it's hard to make that case when one considers self aware consciousness beyond any temporary identifiers.

WW
Thanks WW. I always love your perspective on this.

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Webwanderer
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by Webwanderer » Sat May 23, 2020 3:08 am

axetenuz wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:53 pm
There are many ways by which violence expresses. The more obvious physical ways, and the many subtle ways. One of the subtle expression of violence especially during the use of language is excessive usage of the "I" and the "you" , usually accompanied with pointy fingers. I am not even mentioning the ugly emphasis on the separation/division by such usage. Therefore one tries to use the two pronouns as little as possible. Hope this clarifies.
The problem I see with this is that it just creates another problem. Rather than dance around the obvious when avoiding certain pronouns in order to avoid appearing aggressive, or 'violent', why not just endeavor to have discussions without such underlying sentiments? It seems unlikely that you are going to get much support for an overuse of non self-referencing terms. After all, most anyone would recognize the avoidance and feel the underlying aggression if it should be present. One could just as easily use 'one' aggressively as 'I'. It's all in the word salad and context one might use.

Aggressive interactions are likely to happen in any case from time to time. It's common when people express differences in their world views. I see these as opportunities in self-reflection for all parties concerned as to what ever emotion arises along with the thoughts they birthed. It doesn't seem particularly beneficial to lay on another layer of wordage to wade through.

WW

axetenuz
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by axetenuz » Sat May 23, 2020 4:40 am

One does not recall asking you for advice.

Violence and its many expressions isn't a "sentiment", they are facts of our daily living. One should be self accountable towards this. But i do understand when we are buried in theories and ideas we will inevitably lose sight of facts and live in ideas. Then the idea will be of primary importance, and facts secondary.

The Point isn't about "appearing" ......one leaves the keeping of appearances to the superficial and the insecure. Likewise one isn't too concerned about any "support" and leaves it to the weak that seek such support...this should be obvious, right?

However the point is that one is integrous to one's insight as any lover of wisdom should be. There should not be a discrepancy between wisdom and conduct or between claims and conduct......but sadly we see evidence of such discrepancies all around us, don't we?

Again, one isn't interested in discussing people.

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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by Webwanderer » Sat May 23, 2020 6:25 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 11:52 pm
Thanks WW. I always love your perspective on this.
Thanks to you too E2B. Good to see you posting with us again.

WW

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by smiileyjen101 » Tue May 26, 2020 2:36 am

E2B said:Ok, but, I'll ask this.....
Jen said "before 'you' were, all of the 'unique' possibilities of you were already there ... yes?"

I'd be curious to know, maybe just for conversation purposes.....which 'you', this references?
Meaning, is there actually a "before I am"?
Whichever 'you' is asking the question. :wink:

And at the time you wrote it and at the time that you are reading this, each of those present-ations of 'you' will be unique, and uniquely you at the same time.

As energy arises to form anything of matter, it attracts and joins with recognisable energies that will merge to be 'that'. So yes, the elements have always been and will always be; and no, that unique combination of form will not have come into existence ever before nor ever will again in all of eternity. But, it doesn't go anywhere, because it now 'is'.

It's the same with each thought, each action, each breath, each interaction, each conception, each present-ation of anything in>to matter/form. Once created it can never be un-created, it 'is' and forever will be unique.

Re-cognising awareness of all that is, has been and will be, accepts that both the temporary and eternal nature of everything is coexisting as energy in motion.

Being is the formation of those energies. We do this with or without awareness.

When we slow our awareness to experience the being more acutely, it allow us to identify and experience the cumulative effects of that particular combination, and when we widen our perspective we can also see unique elements of the energies that have combined to form it. It's kind of like having an experience of both the micro and the macro and everything in between all at once, but the elements and the totality is still unique, always.
This state is the wordless because of its unique perfection, blended into equilibrium.

:idea: What is maybe in question is not the uniqueness of 'you', but the perception of it (?)

If that's the consideration, how aware in any moment can you bring yourself to this level of awareness about anything?

It's doable, but with the limitations of physicality appearing suspended in time, by the time you become aware of an element of energy - it's gone. By the time you identify 'you' 'you' has changed even just with the thought of it and whatever perception you bring into being.

I can only refer to my own extended capacity in awareness in the light, it doesn't actually 'go' anywhere, it just 'is'. This 'is'-ness is both personal and impersonal at the same time, it's both infinite and acutely finite, exponential and minutiae in detail, and absolutely, eternally unique.

I'm feeling like we haven't reached the ultimate question yet, but we're heading in that direction. :?:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by smiileyjen101 » Tue May 26, 2020 2:53 am

Re: ^^ post above -
I realised it was 'me' who had not re-cognised the 'ultimate' question and in order to go forward after the journeying of this topic I had to go back :wink:
E2B said in the OP: Which then begs the question.....could the one who is pointing to it, and realizing in the moment that there is a choice, possibly be a unique, but not separate "focus" of that Primordial Awareness that incarnates into the body.....forgets its true nature....identifies with the biological human organism, and then wakes up and serves as almost a creative navigator of the body? Aka....the soul?
Yes. :lol:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

Enlightened2B
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by Enlightened2B » Thu May 28, 2020 10:53 pm

When we slow our awareness to experience the being more acutely, it allow us to identify and experience the cumulative effects of that particular combination, and when we widen our perspective we can also see unique elements of the energies that have combined to form it. It's kind of like having an experience of both the micro and the macro and everything in between all at once, but the elements and the totality is still unique, always.
This state is the wordless because of its unique perfection, blended into equilibrium.
Thank you Jen. Yes, this makes a lot of sense. I have more I want to share on this topic, in a follow up...

Enlightened2B
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by Enlightened2B » Fri May 29, 2020 11:54 pm

Ultimately all the same Source.....with each unique, but non separate expressions. The One Light and its unique colorful rays.

Image

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Our uniqueness

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat May 30, 2020 12:03 am

Yum yum yum E2B. Bravo!
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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