It's All In The Brain, Even Source

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snowheight
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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by snowheight » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:27 pm

Sighclone wrote:Oh dear, Colin Drake is debunking my little throught-train
... but only with the same assumption based in mystical overlay that you started out with ... I can put on my "Andy's-advocate" hat and argue that it leads him to an unsupported conclusion.

Here is the overlay:
Colin Drake wrote:The universe is the manifestation of cosmic energy, which is motion in consciousness, for energy is synonymous with motion and consciousness is the substratum in (and from) which all things arise, in which they exist and back into which they subside. Another name for consciousness, when it is still, is awareness; for by definition consciousness is conscious and thus aware of everything occurring in it. Dark energy and matter are contained within this, but only become detectable when they manifest by being set into motion.
First off, before I start, this is beautiful. Sublime. To carve this up with the mind is sacrilegious ... profane ... but if we're asked to read such text with the mind, where beliefs live, then such cutting is inevitable. Note that this is a conditional (... and conditioned?...) inevitability in that we could just read what Colin wrote without applying any logic. Just let it lie for what it is. Stop reading if you have no interest in reason, and the only reason to have interest in reason is if there is some competition between beliefs going on in the mind.

So this being said, I identify Colin's assumption to be of a "Universal consciousness thus aware of everything occurring in it" -- note that the "Universal" is taken from the context of the paragraph (supported by the reference to "cosmic energy") and I've given emphasis to "everything" to draw attention to the crux of the assumption, that of a unitive awareness that contains all that ever has been, is, could be and will be within its scope. This is the God assumption. This is mysticism. Show me this God before I follow along with your line of reasoning.

(completely parenthetically I'll note that Colin's assumption is inherently dualistic -- "cosmic energy is motion in consciousness, for energy is synonymous with motion and consciousness is the substratum in (and from) which all things arise" -- the duality being motion and the backdrop against which this motion is perceived ... if there is something "contained within it" then there is something "outside of it" ... this is not what the shadow concept of a non-dual whole points toward, and here the limits of language and conception are seen to be reached and the lens for the seeing is that of sophistry)

This assumption actually leads him to a statement that is easily challenged, even by a state-school engineering schmoe with no post-grad credentials:
Colin Drake wrote:However, if you are one of those who thinks that awareness (or consciousness) is a by-product of (and requires) a brain, at the level of 'becoming conscious of something' it is easy to demonstrate that this does not necessarily require a brain; for all living things rely on awareness of their environment to exist and their behavior is directly affected by this. This does show some ability to process incoming data and act (or react) according to this, but does not imply a ‘brain’ in the normal definition of the word [2] … At the level of living cells and above this is self-evident, but it has been shown that even electrons change their behaviour when (aware of) being observed! Thus this awareness exists at a deeper level than body/mind (and matter/energy[3]).
Here Colin actually plays the Quantum card in drawing a conclusion based in another duality, that of life/non-life, and tries to settle an old question about whether life without a brain is “conscious” or “aware”.

… but his play is flawed, because how has:
Colin Drake wrote:electrons change their behaviour when (aware of) being observed!
this behavior ever been observed? This goes to the heart of the question of who or what the Quantum Observer is. Colin first assumes an answer to this (the unity Consciousness) and only then, based on this assumption, does he draw the conclusion that electrons dance whether or not the dance moves are ever appreciated by a brain somewhere.

Back up and be cognizant of the assumption and ask again, how, if not with a brain, has such a dance ever been observed? How would we test such a premise? How would it be communicated, one to another? What experiment could we set up to explain to a brain that something happened regardless of whether a brain was involved?

The question about life/non-life doesn’t go away so easily. The detectors at the slits in the Quantum laboratory are non-life, and they do not make the electron dance … only when their signals are watched by life does the music play.

So would an amoeba force the electron to pick a lane and go left or right? That question reaches the limit of my knowledge on the subject. If a single-cell organism qualifies as a Quantum Observer then Colin’s conclusion is at least partially verified, but only insofar as “becoming conscious” would then not require a brain, but still there would be this issue of an agent of living perspective … that is an issue that emerges from the direct result of the modification of the experiment where the slits are monitored.

But still ... the amoeba has no voice to tell us of the electron dancing ... not a direct voice anyway ... scientists are a clever bunch of folk though ... :D
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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SandyJoy
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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by SandyJoy » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:07 pm

William Samuel has a wonderful way (in words) of connecting, bridging, the world of images/limited light, with the Unseen Infinite Light/Mind.

He takes us leaps and bounds out of the narrowness of "Absolutey-ville" up and above and including and expanding far and wide the understanding of both the subjective and the objective view.

Here is another little bite you might find revealing, he seems to be 'seeing' what the CERN and Fermilab are now finding, confirming and proving:


" Making sense of this world of appearances has much to do with understanding the nature of Light/light, space, energy and time. Especially time."

TIME AND COSMOLOGY
"A new clock is soon to be turned on in the world of time and space:" said old Han, talking to the group at the pond. "There is something that must be understood about time. The metaphysician's insistence that matter isn't what it seems to be and that time isn't real is only half right. I think that time is to be understood very soon.”

A JOURNAL MUSING
Godhead existed before time and space. The Ineffable still exists, infinite and eternal.
Then what are time and space about?
They exist for an essential purpose: that mortals might eventually come to understand and know the scope of the Ineffable source of themselves. When space has been traversed and the mysteries of time calculated, man will find he has touched only the edges of Ineffability. He will find himself like one who has counted all the grains of sand that cover the earth, measured all the leaves in all the forests of his dreams, and then awakens to find he knows nothing of the Dreamer as whom he exists."


Wow! Beautiful stuff Mr. Samuel, thank you!

Sandy Joy
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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by Sighclone » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:03 pm

Sandy -

William Samuel is a favorite - thanks for his reminders!

Snowheight -

Yes, yes and yes -- CD is on shaky ground with all of his stuff in that essay...I did not buy in, just copied it here for reference, his broadcast email came yesterday.

The beauty of QM, Copenhagen interpretation, double-slit, teleportation, non-locality etc. is that they ask more questions than they answer today. Which is why I have phrased all of this post as "What if?" speculations. What is the relative "consciousness" of an electron, a stone, a leaf, a cat, a monkey or a human, and how is that measured? Yup, that is a real tough question, and neither CD nor I have that answer. William Samuel and others who give sweeping non-scientific answers make statements which might resonate strongly and intuitively with me, but still lack support from hard measurable data...I think that will be coming over time, and that a TOE may emerge. If so, it will be a small piece in the puzzle, really. Small, because, while we may someday have a grand design theory which is increasingly supported by experimental results, that tidy little theory is only so useful for the general population if it points the way to waking up quickly, in my opinion.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by unbornawakened » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:09 pm

Reminded of a quote from H.P. Lovecraft: as the sphere of knowledge grows, so does it contact with the unknown :D

In other words, the more we know ... the less we know in some sense ... nice paradox !
Sighclone wrote:S
The beauty of QM, Copenhagen interpretation, double-slit, teleportation, non-locality etc. is that they ask more questions than they answer today.

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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:00 am

AH!!! no coincidences... I was writing this below while you were typing about the relative consciousness of an electron, a stone, a leaf, a cat, ... I actually deleted a discussion about the absolute awareness of the process for sand into bricks and them knowing their place in energy of the all lol!! I realised human thinking would likely have a hard time with it, seeing as we're all so incredibly intelligent :wink:
Snowy said: This assumption actually leads him to a statement that is easily challenged, even by a state-school engineering schmoe with no post-grad credentials:
Colin Drake wrote:
However, if you are one of those who thinks that awareness (or consciousness) is a by-product of (and requires) a brain, at the level of 'becoming conscious of something' it is easy to demonstrate that this does not necessarily require a brain; for all living things rely on awareness of their environment to exist and their behavior is directly affected by this. This does show some ability to process incoming data and act (or react) according to this, but does not imply a ‘brain’ in the normal definition of the word [2] … At the level of living cells and above this is self-evident, but it has been shown that even electrons change their behaviour when (aware of) being observed! Thus this awareness exists at a deeper level than body/mind (and matter/energy[3]).

Here Colin actually plays the Quantum card in drawing a conclusion based in another duality, that of life/non-life, and tries to settle an old question about whether life without a brain is “conscious” or “aware”.

… but his play is flawed, because how has:
Colin Drake wrote:
electrons change their behaviour when (aware of) being observed!
this behavior ever been observed? This goes to the heart of the question of who or what the Quantum Observer is. Colin first assumes an answer to this (the unity Consciousness) and only then, based on this assumption, does he draw the conclusion that electrons dance whether or not the dance moves are ever appreciated by a brain somewhere.
The flaw in your thinking (imho snowy) is your assumption that 'observation' means as filtered by a brain - in my take on it, it doesn't, which is kind of what he's saying above that.

I have no scientific knowledge, none, zip, but I'm really excited about the dark matter / dark energy discoveries by mankind. For me it's a huge step up in human awareness of what the 'all' encompasses and the absolute balance of it and the cause-effect of every single molecule or whatever the tiniest expression of energy is.

So much more than they've ever imagined when they've put their own cognitive energies above that of the entirety of creation in motion. As long as man thinks they are the top of the intelligence chain because of the size of their brain and their knowledge of it, they are deluded.

With understanding of the energies in motion they may then be able to pay respect to all energies in motion, to all compounding of energies, be cognicent of the processes and adaptations of the energy source within and outside of themselves, and how even the processes create their own energy cycle that must have a cause and effect exponentially, many of them that humankind are either ignorant of, or arrogantly ignoring. No choice is wrong, but all choices, interactions, interventions, inventions and aspirations have a consequence on the 'all' as they move energy, or reformat energy by compounding or isolating elements. Our time on Earth is brief, but we impact imho with less awareness than the molecules that make up water do in their eternal cycles on this planet.

Intelligence is not in the brain, our brain is the conductor of intelligence. Consciousness is not in the brain, the brain picks up consciousness in movements of energy because it is a sensor.

It's our judgemental separated from the all thought form energies that block this knowledge because of their density and incompatibility with the frequency range of the all... what they're now calling the combination range of energy and dark energy.

When I first saw a discussion about the matter/dark matter, energy/dark energy illustrated by vision of the universe in motion, not too long ago, I got absolutely affected on every vibrationary level I'm aware of... picture the scene in ET when he points to sky and excitedly says 'Home! Home! ET go hooome' when he builds the machine that will send energy across the stars to be sensed and interpreted by his own folks - okay, a movie, but the 'all' energy in me got soooooo excited that mankind was in a sense going to realise where 'home' really is - not in the stars, but as the aboriginal peoples have always remembered, in the eternal dark black energy that holds the stars in its embrace. Within its own vibration it's not dark at all, it throws the illumination of the stars... ack.. my vocabulary can't explain that, hopefully the scientists will figure it out and explain it. - it's along the lines of the sorrow-joy explanation in the Prophet.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:20 am

Snowy, do you remember this discussion? This point in this thread took me back to it.
Re: Who's Awareness?
by snowheight » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:55 pm
Quinn wrote:
Right now, it's conceptual. Mind-bending, but conceptual. We aren't hooked in to the blanket. We are the blanket.

Wow.



Yeah isn't that realization awe inspiring?

I'll share my personal experience on this. I encountered it years before I picked up Tolle, stumbled onto meditation, and tumbled through the looking glass.

The paths to the edge of that looking glass are a multitude, and I know that many many people can get there without String Theory or Quantum Mechanics. It's just that I was not one of those people. My conditioning led me to a deep skepticism toward anything supernatural. It took recognition of the profound cognitive consonance between the spiritual practices with roots in Asia and the end conclusions of Western physical science to pull my mind over the edge of the rabbit hole.

NamasteStop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.snowheight



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply with quote Re: Who's Awareness?
by smiileyjen101 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:22 pm
Snowheight said:
I can offer the following analogy in personal contemplative experience. Meditate on a tree. Especially one growing solitary in the midst of some landscaping with nothing but short grass around it. The distinction between the tree and the Earth dissolves quickly. That the tree is only an extension of the earth is easily seen (try it with a metal signpost btw and perhaps this is not as easy). Meditating in turn on the feeling of the ground through the bottom of our feet reminds us of our own connection to the planet and through this to the tree.
Go deeper,further, higher, fuller - lay your shadow over the shadow of the tree or signpost, the shadows are one, maybe one slightly hanging outside of the other, but one none-the-less.

Now, feel the sun's rays, the energies that created the light that created the shadow, one definitely slightly hanging outside of the other, but one none-the-less. Feel the energy feeding the tree, the earth that holds the signpost that throws a shadow by sharing the light, that absorbs the heat that passes through the sky - that definitely slightly hangs outside of the other/s and yet all are one.

I 'think' I like the string theory if I understood it enough in thought. But I KNOW I LOVE the feel of the string theory in energy, the expression of the idea of it has energy, the same as mine, the same as yours, the same as the sun, the same as the air, the same as the earth, the same as the tree, the same as the signpost, the same as the grass shoots and roots above and below the earth... the same, the same, the same.

Hug the signpost and the tree and the Earth and your shadow and yourself.. the sun... hmm bit ouchy to hug - but you can 'hug' its rays and resonate a 'bless you, thank you for being a part of me and allowing me to be a part of you'.

And with the buzzing you'll notice the bee (casting a shadow on your shadow as it flies with the warmth of the sun's rays.....) rofl...
This is a more 'vertical' view of life energy, and much that man misses in its understanding of it, by lack of sensitivity to it.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by snowheight » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:31 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:ack.. my vocabulary can't explain that
'jen,

You are coming through loud and clear and beautiful. Thanks for the patience and compassion with all of the mind stuff, to say your take on this is welcomed would be an understatement.
unbornawakened wrote:In other words, the more we know ... the less we know in some sense ... nice paradox !
Put yourself in the shoes of Bohr, Heisenberg, Einstein, Dirac, Schrodinger etc. etc. ... how do you think they felt back in 1927? ... Imagine the people who are going to move the ball over the next goal line that Andy referred to ... what will that be like? :D
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by unbornawakened » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:20 am

I am not sure I understand the question. Generally speaking it is OK to not answer certain questions, and to ask more questions. In the end, when there is no certainty, why pretend to be certain ?
snowheight wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of Bohr, Heisenberg, Einstein, Dirac, Schrodinger etc. etc. ... how do you think they felt back in 1927? ... Imagine the people who are going to move the ball over the next goal line that Andy referred to ... what will that be like? :D

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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by snowheight » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:45 am

Finally got through most of the article on the study. Thanks again for posting that Andy it was fascinating.

I only want to note the courage of the authors to investigate a line of inquiry, that although a logical next step in terms of where science is today, is, career-wise, probably somewhat of a risk.

In this case, I'd name them the angels with no fear to tread. :)
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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by unbornawakened » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:33 am

Andy,

If you will permit some humour on this thread :wink: I would argue that "it's all in the crotch, even source" :lol:

You know most people are driven by sexual impulses.

Kundalini yoga argues that our latent energies are located in the crotch (and can be raised ... perhaps ... to the brain area)

Take care :D

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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by snowheight » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:08 am

o.k. uba, I gotta have some fun with this one too now. :)
unbornawakened wrote: I would argue that "it's all in the crotch, even source" :lol:
How do you know when the crotch feels something?

It would seem that this question goes to the heart of the matter so to speak.
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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by Sighclone » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:57 am

Having utterly failed to convince anyone including myself that it's all in the brain, even Source, I'm good with the "crotch" location. I guess my only question is what happens when you have your crotch removed? Or, short of that, what happens if a male has his prostate removed? Kind of like asking if Source is limited suddenly when a person has a lobotomy?

All of which reminds me of a passage in Rupert Spira's fine new book, Presence (vol. 1), page 23:
Our self...does not belong to a body or a mind. The self belongs to itself. It is impersonal. The body and mind belong to it, but it does not belong to anyone or anything.
Wonderful book...talks about the nature of experience. Beautiful man, also...had a chance to interact with him at SAND III.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by unbornawakened » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:49 am

I was joking, of course, but there are those who argue that the "mother earth" energy is located in that area. In fact, when asking "mother earth" to give pure divine self knowledge, the hand must be placed in the crotch area (Sahaja meditation) :D

http://www.adishakti.org/subtle_system/kundalini.htm

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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by smiileyjen101 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:42 am

Here's an example of time/energy and cognitive awareness continually in motion by the cause and effect of attention, made clear and discernible by awareness and understanding of energy flow/s, circuitry and collapsing potentialities. Of course none of this, and all of this is/is not important - it just 'is'. 8)

Andy, it may be the frame of reference that appears vastly superior to human-ness that you may be trying to endow upon your characters in your book.

It may seem chaotic and random, but it's actually very 'organised' in here - in my own understanding based on personal experience, if only I had the immediacy of time to explain it all as it is known in the light. Where I go off at really recognisable tangents in trying to share it I'll add :arrow: a pointer (lol!!) to my 'from whence this came' in this immediate experience, albeit that is enormously erroneous for it comes from all understanding processed, interpreted and translated thus far.

I had to come back to this topic to say... omg... Andy... understanding it is all (represented) in the mind - I've been researching studies on brain mapping, mri research etc etc.

But, I still think the Default Mode is variable, not static, nor even a reliable baseline for source recognition. For as much as we are all part of the all, we are in human form distinguishably and deliberately individual.

I've been reading and scrawling notes all over :arrow:
'The empathic brain and its dysfunction in psychiatric populations: implications for intervention across different clinical conditions' by Jean Decety Depts of Psychology & Psychiatry, University of Chicago; & Yoshiya Moriguchi National Center of Neurology & Psychiatry, Tokyo
http://www.bpsmedicine.com/content/1/1/22

While reading ^ this paper, & intuitively and critically analysing the information in it, agreeing with some, disagreeing with others & checking if my processing is inaccurate through ignorance or arrogance - or if the thinking outlined within it is inaccurate through ignorance or arrogance, and accepting there is nothing to forgive here - it's a work in progress, as am I.
(yes Snowy, you do need to employ both - :arrow: - see a wonderful presentation about the perils of intuition if used without the balance of data analysis by David Myers - Public lecture (50 mins.): "The Powers and Perils of Intuition" (Bial Symposium, Porto, Portugal, 2010) link = http://tv.up.pt/videos/H6Gj46Lo and I would argue the perils are as great if you use purely external data analysis without the benefits of personal experience / intuition and think it is absolutely reliable - because of the difference in understanding, which is supported by an mri experiment held within the above paper that shows that 'vicarious experience' of a thing, even with acceptance and understanding, is different to personal experience of a thing. - thing can be thought, feeling, intention, absorbing, motivation and/or action.

because even it (the thinking and writing and 'solidity' of this paper is also still an energy receiving (attention) and energy creating (thought, evaluating resonances - whether or not it is actually read or not, or read and understood or not, or read, understood and on some level changed the thinking of the reader)

It's all 'important/not important' and eternally happening 'now' as is known in the light.

And it is still manifestly 'there' both as a 'static', formed work in progress and even the writers will have likely moved on from its potentiality growing and collapsing because of its manifestation multiplied by the numbers who read it, interpret it and translate it into their and others' being awareness, dissecting parts of the brain that 'light up' on different stimuli and after 'receiving', interpreting and translating the energy into emotions, thoughts and conscious or automatic responses ...... feeds back into the 'ALL' of energy.

I was simultaneously consciously (awarely) factoring in the experiential knowledge I've accumulated (including as an 'empath' able to feel the experiences of another while recognisisng that it's not 'mine'), remembering personal and vicarious experiences & noticing the differences in energy receipt, interpretation and translation (all of which have their own energies combining with the energies of the 'thing' & cause and effect on it - collapsing potentials) and relaying it to seemingly separate situations and events happening now, both personally and as I'm vicariously aware of.

Which of course are not really separate because it's all part of the same universal neural processing within the all.
:arrow: the notion that " “That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above, corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracles of the One Thing”.replicated in brain neural pathways as illustrated by the picture of the neurons in a mouse's brain and in the universe held in one of the topics here or by googling mouse brain universe


The paper factors in the reality (absolute in my intuition and supported by the data) that first person experience (the experience of 'whose' it is) is more powerful than even very close impactive vicarious experiences' and so it adds to my understanding of why I get frustrated with 'untruths' or really any truth being represented as universally true to the degree of one person being able to 'judge' another or their experience with the same clarity of nuances, rather than folks recognising that their understanding has limitations of boundaries, seen or unseen, known or unknown, respected or not - that all also feed into the awareness of energies in motion.

So Andy, your characters.. may have gone beyond Maslow's heirarchy of needs self actualisation into selfless (awareness of the needs of others) actualisation... but do they do so with the knowledge of themselves and their energies still being different within and to each others and impacting on the all in the above and below of energy rising and falling and the collapsing of all possible outcomes?

And, if you can convey this (receive, interpret and translate it) can you comprehend what will it do to you, and your readers, and direct or indirect interactives (those known or unknown with whom you share energies) while you are writing this book and beyond? let alone the exponential impact on the 'all'?

:arrow: Imagination = i + magi (wise) + nation (giving home to)

This is an example of why everything (thought, desire, intention etc etc ) is / is not important and the clarity that can be brought to seeing those neurons in a mouse's brain or human brain lighting up with energy stimuli in the same way that the universe does - but still, while encased in our bodies needing to fetch the water etc etc etc
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: It's All In The Brain, Even Source

Post by Sighclone » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:28 am

Smiiley...the fount of many wonders!

Right now I'm reading "Shankara and Indian Philosophy" by Natalia Isayeva. She reminds us that he said Atman is the "relative form" of Brahman, or the image/reflection of Isvara in each of us who appear to be separate.

I do hear you, and will be writing many spiritual themes into the characters and events. Of course, I want it to have fairly broad appeal, so will have (already has) a variety of personalities and behaviours. An eleven-year old girl is a major character.

Maslow's last two works "Toward a Psychology of Being," and "The Farther Reaches of Human Nature" both explore very mystical / nondual topics. And Fritz Perls ended up deep in Zen and Esalen activities.

I'm always amused at new "spiritual writers," and ideas. Layering more metaphysics on the infinite magic of the ordinary might sell books but gets us not a whit closer to truth. The best pointers are about one sentence long.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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