Presence

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Kutso
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Re: Presence

Post by Kutso » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:15 pm

the key master wrote:Its the identification with the conditioning which causes the suffering, resistance, denial, and projection,
Who is identified with the conditioning?
the key master wrote:which is why looking and scrutinizing the conditioning or even the condition of the conditioning is so important
Who is going to look at the conditioning?
the key master wrote:as opposed to “looking at the looking” or becoming the Self
You are misunderstanding. It is never about becoming the Self. You are the Self already. But because of the very conditioning, you seem to love so dearly, there is the belief that you are this body. The Self is covered up by these beliefs, but is still there all the time. Just like the Sun is there all the time even though clouds might be covering it up at the time.
So, ignorance is in the way of knowing who you are, and Self-knowledge is the way to dispell this ignorance.

You keep saying that the mind is not the Self, but actually that is not ultimately true. Ultimately everything is Self. Thoughts and other phenomena is just expressions of the one Self. I don't see this discussion going any further, at least not with you tkm. You seem to be rather set in your beliefs, and seem to be quite unwilling to question them. It's okay though. I don't mind that.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:05 am

kutso said,
Who is identified with the conditioning?
Mind identification is an interesting thing. We could say there is no mind to be identified with in the first place, but we already covered that there is still a conditioned aspect of consciousness appearing to "something" which isnt appearing. So, if we are talking about mind identification, we are talking about a moving phenomenon, and this seems to be perpetuated by what the mind isn’t conscious of, which is why I talk about becoming conscious in tandem with transcending the mind identification.
Who is going to look at the conditioning?
The mind scrutinizes itself. Everything which appears, appears in consciousness. The conditioning “moves through” the consciousness that isn’t moving. The mind is able to inquire into its own conditioning because of “something” which isn’t mind, and this is what is meant by becoming a less unconscious person. Whatever that something is will remain forever a mystery to mind, which is why i dont talk about it much, and do talk about unconscious projection, denial, resistance etc. These are things which can be noticed.
the key master wrote:as opposed to “looking at the looking” or becoming the Self


You are misunderstanding. It is never about becoming the Self.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I said its about scrutinizing the conditioning, as opposed to becoming the Self, meaning, we were actually in agreement on that one, up until the point where you arent scrutinizing yourself.
But because of the very conditioning, you seem to love so dearly
I certainly dont mind my mind.
I don't see this discussion going any further, at least not with you tkm. You seem to be rather set in your beliefs, and seem to be quite unwilling to question them. It's okay though. I don't mind that.
Which beliefs are you talking about?

snowheight
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Re: Presence

Post by snowheight » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:04 am

the key master wrote:While nothing we can think is ultimately true, the idea that all beliefs are false is a great way to keep unconscious thought processes safe from scrutiny
That's a pretty slippery rock for a mind to rest on but there's no denying that there seem to be those with such purchase.

In just being, thoughts on beliefs that are neither true nor false just dissolve.
the key master wrote:Stopping mind over and over and over in the name of becoming what isn’t mind, isn’t killing the delusion fairies, its feeding them pixie dust and sending them into hibernation, while questioning and seeing through the belief in a volitional separate self is a paradigm shift away from belief structures altogether. Its not a new realm of being for the person, but the end of one.
Got no quarrel with that on it's face ... I mean, who or what is there to stop a mind? Stopping implies a stopper and a state of being stopped and then the whole recursive ultimate question just spins around for another endless cycle. My guess is that the last sentence and a half of that (paradox found in the "volitional separate self --> end of the person") strikes the same note and the dissolving-neither-true-nor-false-thoughts.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:24 pm

The movement of conditioning is involuntary. There’s not actually a person driving this mind thingy around, which is relieving. Thoughts appear spontaneously, and minds are conditioned to think. This isn’t to say that the mechanically functioning mind cannot “do certain things to itself” to exert control over its own spontaneous movements, making it rather unspontaneous, and more often than not these actions are performed unconsciously in reaction to the emotional body or in the search for a certain mind state. So, before we go further, we see that this conceptual mind thingy that we’re talking about “doesn’t actually possess any substance”, and yet, we can also observe, that there is conditioning conditioned to think along certain lines. When you get hungry, you order the pizza, because you’ve been conditioned to know how yummy it is, even if you’re trying to watch your carb intake. And so again, we’re talking conditioning now, not unconditioned consciousness which isn’t appearing here in any form. Along these lines, we may as well equate the mind with the person, or a body mind, because it is the illusory dualistic experience of the individuated aspect appearing as a separate object in consciousness which is being conditioned. This opens the conditioning up to understand things which occur internally, in the body, as opposed to just within what can feel like a bounded mechanical mind, like emotions, and bunions and stuff.

So, back to doing certain things to itself, and by this, I don’t mean playing with your twigs and berries or multi vibrating on your multi vibrators. What I mean, is things like suppression, mind state cultivation, projection, self manipulation, unconscious reactivity, meditating to get somewhere, find something, be someone, with the underlying theme being mind identified mind control. If you’re controlling yourself “in here”, you will be unconsciously projecting “out there”, which will probably manifest as some form of control issue. Now, becoming conscious of this unconscious conditioning would entail “seeing the control issue”, whether it’s the emotional body which is noticed, or, the mind exerting this control externally, say, through projection onto a loved one, or by trying to control future events in some way, and when these things are noticed, they can be owned, not through self judgment or blame, but with the gentle touch of self understanding. Its just the conditioning, and you aren’t that, but this doesn’t mean there aren’t unconscious forces at play.

As unconscious conditioning “becomes noticed”, the conditioning can then inquire into why its conditioned that way. Its not like the conditioning akchully conditions itself, but we could say, it is like the conditioning can understand itself. This sort of “becoming conscious process” isn’t really a practice, because the mind which is doing the work isn’t actually you. You are the consciousness which is simply becoming what it already is, until that mind thingy is transcended, which implies time, but there really isn’t any. Now, the question was about mind stopping itself. Again, mechanical conditioning can be geared up to do all sorts of mechanical things, and all sorts of cool experiences can happen as mind manipulates itself. Granted, it’s the external forces, teachings, what have yous which have created this self manipulation, but this doesn’t mean mind isn’t geared up to do certain things, like meditate, drive a car, eat carrots. So—mind---is conditioned to think along certain lines. We could just as easily say, mind thinks when it wants to, and doesn’t think when it doesn’t want to. If mind is meditating, and in the process is wanting to not think or feel while wanting to think or feel, wanting to become something like enlightened, or awareness, or the Self, there is a split mind practice going on, mind thinking that it shouldn’t be thinking, mind thinking that it’s a thinker in order to become not a thinker, and its not a healthy thing for mind, and its not a conscious mechanical process. Its an unconscious process, which is why we talk about becoming conscious, to close these mind splits, and to do that, we have to see them, we have to really want to see them.

And so, there is no volitional separate self or person. But, the conditioning is still conditioned to move in certain ways. These movements are involuntary, which makes the idea of blame for anything which has ever been done, in this world or any other, to you or your loved ones, by someone else or by the hand of God, nothing more than your own shadow on the pavement. This is your own dream ya know.

snowheight
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Re: Presence

Post by snowheight » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:16 pm

No answer to that from the mind Jason.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

Natalia
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Re: Presence

Post by Natalia » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:09 am

I have just read some posts in this thread - haha - it is so funny observing you guys :lol: and reading your analysis.

Is there ever anything to discuss?

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Kutso
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Re: Presence

Post by Kutso » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:54 pm

tkm,

What you are talking about is actually what I have figured out as well. I think we were talking about the same thing all along, but maybe just misunderstanding each other. I don't advocate silencing the mind in able to become enlightened. I do, however, say that often when investigating into the knower of phenomena, the mind just becomes silent. And in those instances, everything is very clear, since all ideas of who you are and such is not there.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

alex
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Re: Presence

Post by alex » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:09 am

I think it's a boy thing Natalia.. just leave em to it :lol:

snowheight
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Re: Presence

Post by snowheight » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:22 am

alex wrote:I think it's a boy thing Natalia.. just leave em to it :lol:
O.k Alex ... given the proximity to Valentine's day I''m willing to just let that slide. :twisted:
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:47 am

Natalia wrote:I have just read some posts in this thread - haha - it is so funny observing you guys :lol: and reading your analysis.

Is there ever anything to discuss?

I thought it was clear we have nothing better to do, hehe.

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:49 am

Kutso wrote:tkm,

What you are talking about is actually what I have figured out as well. I think we were talking about the same thing all along, but maybe just misunderstanding each other. I don't advocate silencing the mind in able to become enlightened. I do, however, say that often when investigating into the knower of phenomena, the mind just becomes silent. And in those instances, everything is very clear, since all ideas of who you are and such is not there.
Sounds good to me.

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:02 am

alex wrote:I think it's a boy thing Natalia.. just leave em to it :lol:
You big meany.

snowheight
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Re: Presence

Post by snowheight » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:27 am

Here is a phenomena of the mind that occurred to me today. A thought in and of itself no doubt.

Perhaps call it a delusion born of non-delusion, but the old fears ... of inadequacy, death, failure, dissapointment, missing-out, falling-behind, lack, superiority, inferiority, betrayal, guilt, regret ...

It seems, to the mind, that knowing keeps the mind from becoming convinced of these.

This is one facet of what I call "the mind coming along for the ride".
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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autumnsphere
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Re: Presence

Post by autumnsphere » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:54 pm

Kutso wrote:
the key master wrote:Its the identification with the conditioning which causes the suffering, resistance, denial, and projection,
Who is identified with the conditioning?
the key master wrote:which is why looking and scrutinizing the conditioning or even the condition of the conditioning is so important
Who is going to look at the conditioning?
Oh my God, I open a random page of this topic, and it hasn't changed a bit! Keep squawking Polly. ;) *kidding*

Love,
Dora
Forget spiritual practice - just do drugs!

the key master
Posts: 2078
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:47 pm

autumnsphere wrote:
Kutso wrote:
the key master wrote:Its the identification with the conditioning which causes the suffering, resistance, denial, and projection,
Who is identified with the conditioning?
the key master wrote:which is why looking and scrutinizing the conditioning or even the condition of the conditioning is so important
Who is going to look at the conditioning?
Oh my God, I open a random page of this topic, and it hasn't changed a bit! Keep squawking Polly. ;) *kidding*

Love,
Dora

Maybe you missed the part at the end where we all came to agreement, held hands, and sang kumbaya :lol:

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