Presence

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the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:58 am

sandy said,

Hey Key Master!
Hi sandy!!!

randomguy
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Re: Presence

Post by randomguy » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:18 am

arel wrote:
randomguy wrote:Is whatever witnesses the space of now ever not present (as in not here)?
What would be "not present" really?
In retrospect yes, there is never not existence, never not now, but there are times when world obscures my knowledge of myself, of my true identity, and that's when I'm not present, in the way I use the term.
Wise to trust your own authority it is.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:34 am

arel said,
So then question for every one who says the presence is always present: (which I do agree with from a certain perspective, as a good pointer).
Why is there such points in Tolle's 'teaching' about becoming present, and mindfulness practice, body awareness (yoga), is that all just to stop thinking?
All movement of mind is witnessed by something which isn't mind. Without that "something", there would be no room for inquiry, change, and no space for understanding. Even when mind is minding, there is "something" which is conscious of mind, something which is present in both minds presence and absence. In my previous post, i was inferring that you were interpreting "presence" as mind's absence, and this is the seeming experience of "knowing presence is present", which could also be interpreted as the absence of knowing anything about anything, a non mental knowing. ALong these lines, mind isn;'t actually "becoming present", its becoming absent as what is present remains continuously present. While it may seem like "you" arent always present, its what isnt you to begin with coming and going which makes it seem like presence isn't staying.

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SandyJoy
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Re: Presence

Post by SandyJoy » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:07 am

arel wrote:
SandyJoy wrote:Presence is Present whether you know it or not, whether you acknowledge it or not,
Awareness always is, but Presence is Present only when you know it, yourself :) Nothing is if I don't know it. Go ahead prove me otherwise... :)

So then question for every one who says the presence is always present: (which I do agree with from a certain perspective, as a good pointer).
Why is there such points in Tolle's 'teaching' about becoming present, and mindfulness practice, body awareness (yoga), is that all just to stop thinking?
Ok, I will try to prove it: You can only know that you do not know it right here in the present. I do not see how you can know or not know without being Here as or in this Living Presence. Where else are you going to 'not know' something? Is there another "somewhere" that you can be? Try to "not know" outside of This Presence, you cannot do it.

Yes, if you want to understand your real Identity, then being mindful of this Living Presence helps you be mindful of It and slowly but surely to Live It without need of practice. But, it makes no difference to this Living Presence whether you know It is Your Life or not. It still goes on being All That You are.

If you want freedom then you 'practice' seeing Life as All That Is and therefore All That You Are---

I came to this many years ago, long before Tolle was even born I think. :lol:

My practice was more like the one Jesus recommends as stated in the Gospel of Thomas: "Find the beginning and stay there."

The Beginning, for me, is very simple, it goes something like this; God is All and there is no other. Life and God are the same One, and Life is the action of God's Awareness.

Then I put it to practice by Living It faithfully, "whose Awareness Is this?" It is God's and God's alone".

Then, one day, in the Child's joy of this Light of Truth, I looked out and about and I see Its Living Light of Love proved in all things. :D

I think that too was one other thing Jesus said: "Prove Me Now Herewith". I always loved that statement. I think it means Live It, don't just talk about it, Prove It! Be It, Live what you know, Just do It---Live this Life of Living Presence fully and totally and wholly and holy and see how it goes, watch and see what happens. It proves Its Self in all ways. "Beyond the shadow of a doubt" It is the Living Truth.

You gotta be It to See It. Well, that was how I "practiced the Presence"---now-a-days It just Is, now I don't even "practice" this anymore---It just Is my Reality. Its Living Presence is clearly the Obvious Only Now. I often forget that I used to have to do this "practice" for many years, but then the Child bloomed within My Heart and everything is easy and joyful and there is no practice.

Freedom, Unbound Joy, Life!

Much Love, SandyJoy
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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SandyJoy
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Re: Presence

Post by SandyJoy » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:39 am

the key master wrote:arel said,
So then question for every one who says the presence is always present: (which I do agree with from a certain perspective, as a good pointer).
Why is there such points in Tolle's 'teaching' about becoming present, and mindfulness practice, body awareness (yoga), is that all just to stop thinking?
All movement of mind is witnessed by something which isn't mind. Without that "something", there would be no room for inquiry, change, and no space for understanding. Even when mind is minding, there is "something" which is conscious of mind, something which is present in both minds presence and absence. In my previous post, i was inferring that you were interpreting "presence" as mind's absence, and this is the seeming experience of "knowing presence is present", which could also be interpreted as the absence of knowing anything about anything, a non mental knowing. ALong these lines, mind isn;'t actually "becoming present", its becoming absent as what is present remains continuously present. While it may seem like "you" arent always present, its what isnt you to begin with coming and going which makes it seem like presence isn't staying.
Very Nice! I think you said that very well. :D

Love, Sandyjoy
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Kutso
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Re: Presence

Post by Kutso » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:00 am

arel,

You are contradicting yourself. At the same time you say "I am not always present", and then you say "presence is a happening in what I am". If you were not always present, then you would not be able to see the arising and subsiding of the phenomenon you call "presence".
arel wrote:So then question for every one who says the presence is always present: (which I do agree with from a certain perspective, as a good pointer).
Why is there such points in Tolle's 'teaching' about becoming present, and mindfulness practice, body awareness (yoga), is that all just to stop thinking?
I have found that I am always present, but once I didn't know this. In the beginning on the path to Self-realization, some practice may be needed. I say "may be needed", because this is not always true.

Bottom line is that all phenomenon arises in your presence.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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SandyJoy
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Re: Presence

Post by SandyJoy » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:20 pm

Kutso wrote:I have found that I am always present, but once I didn't know this. In the beginning on the path to Self-realization, some practice may be needed. I say "may be needed", because this is not always true.
Yes, I think the realization of the Truth is happening 'faster' now. It's as if the fog was lifted by the wise one's who went before us, and now, right on time, like a field of orange poppies over the hillside, many are bursting open with the Joy of the seed become the full flowering.

Or I have thought of it as the pathfinders who first tracked the thick forests, no path to seen anywhere, those ancient ones who made the first steps, trampled a small, almost unseen trail, then a few more to follow and then the path gets bigger and wider and now, as it was destined to be, the whole gang has no problem seeing this way through to the Wonder and Peace of The Living Meadow.

Soon, there will no search and no question, it will be seen as simply Reality.

I heard that there was a time in the human span of things, when human's could not see color, we saw only in grays, like dogs see (how do they know that?) and then, right one time, the DNA gets triggered, somehow we evolved to see in living color. I think we are evolving to see Reality as Reality is and I think its happening very quickly now.

No 'practice' needed; The Truth is Freedom, I think its all about Freedom. Freedom, and a new dimension if being added, we will just find ourself in the Meadow, pure in heart, seen as the joy and freedom to be yourself, unafraid, innocent, tender, gentle and free.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Kutso
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Re: Presence

Post by Kutso » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:01 pm

It might be so, Sandy. It might also be that communicating has been getting a lot easier these days. It is easier to reach the masses, so to speak.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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autumnsphere
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Re: Presence

Post by autumnsphere » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:00 pm

the key master wrote:Consciousness is already conscious, and the idea that a practice is necessary for mind to be consciousness arises from the delusional belief that mind can "become consciousness", or is "becoming consciousness" through what is sometimes pointed to as the awakening process. The person doesn't become anything except a less unconscious person, and this happens as consciousness "becomes conscious" of mind while being what its always been, conscious. That's you, not the mind which spontaneously appears out of nowhere declaring that its practicing being something which is present even in its own absence, which is, fundamentally impossible. Put another way, mind can't actually practice being something which isn't mind.
And you thought of banning him?!

Jason could be the new Heidegger as far as I'm concerned. Jason, write the goddamn book already!

Heidegger says the same thing basically. He says Truth (Consciousness in Jay's post) is never concealed. And from Truth's point of view Concealment is Unconcealment. Basically imagine Source (or whatever) becoming hidden from the delusional people but from Source's point of view nothing is hidden and awakening is basically two things:

1. Unconcealment from a delusional point of view
me -------> Truth
2. Concealment from Truth's point of view
Truth <------ me

Discovering human Dasein can be "true" while it is Being-Unconcealment from Truth's point of view. The authentic Being of Dasein, the being-in-the truth, presupposes disclosedness of the world in understanding, and discourse, i.e., the constitution of the being of human Dasein as thrownness in Truth.

Basically that's the same thing Jason is saying, and it's been around for ages. Anamnesis was Plato's term for non-forgetting - meaning we already know everything, we are just constantly unenlightening ourselves.
Forget spiritual practice - just do drugs!

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ashley72
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Re: Presence

Post by ashley72 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:07 am

When your consciousness is directed outward, mind and world arise. When it is directed inward, it realizes its own Source and returns home into the Unmanifested. -Eckhart Tolle
Watching thoughts is not looking inward. Watching feelings is not looking inward. Watching breathing is not looking inward. Only turning the attention away from the observed and towards the observer is looking inward. Only awareness watching awareness is looking inward.

Turning the arrow of attention 180 degrees back to where the head/face resides is watching this observer. What do you notice? I notice empty space... that infinite space is your awareness.

Looking inward is eternal awareness. Looking inward is eternal peace.
It is the nature of the mind to wander. You are not the mind. The mind springs up and sinks down. It is impermanent, transitory, whereas you are eternal, To inhere in the Self is the thing. Never mind the mind, In the realized man the mind may be active or inactive, the Self alone remains for him. - Ramana Maharshi
And another...
The wise know that all that is not the Self is merely a movement of the mind; being liberated, they live as a child lives. - Ashtavakra Gita

And another...
‘Do not swerve from your true state, thinking some thought. But if you do, do not commit the same mistake again. ‘Do nothing that you may later regret. Even if you did it once, never repeat it.’ - Sri Muruganar
And another...
‘If instead of looking outward at objects, you observe that looking, all things now shine as I, the seer. Perception of objects is mere illusion.’ - Sri Muruganar
And another...

‘True natural Awareness, which does not go after alien objects, is the Heart. Since actionless Awareness shines as real Being, its joy consists in concentration on itself. - Sri Muruganar
And another....
‘None can confront and overcome the mind. Ignore it, then, as something false, unreal. Know the Self as the real ground and stand firm-rooted in it.’ - Sri Muruganar
And another...
‘When one refrains from looking out and noting outward objects, and abides within the heart in Self-Awareness, the ego disappears. The silence pure, that then shines forth, is the goal of Knowledge.’ - Sri Muruganar
And another...
Now your task is to go on seeing your Absence/Presence in all situations, till the seeing becomes quite natural and continuous. This is neither to lose yourself in your Emptiness nor in what fills it, but simultaneously to view the thing you are looking at and the No-thing you are looking out of. There will be found no times when this two-way attention is out of place or can safely be dispensed with. The price of sanity is vigilance. The Science of the 1st Person, Douglas Harding
To inhere in the Self is the thing. That is all you need to do. Just rest while sensing your Self. Just hold on to the sense ‘I am’ tenaciously and not to swerve from it even for a moment. Turn the arrow of attention 180 degrees to where the head/face resides.... and take a fresh look. =>>>>>>> http://www.headless.org/videos/richard_ ... o_test.htm

What happens when you abide or inhere in the Self?
This is a deeply satisfying thing to do. In this way, you draw consciousness away from mind activity and create a gap of no-mind in which you are highly alert and aware but not thinking. This is the essence of meditation. - Eckhart Tolle
FORGET ABOUT YOUR LIFE SITUATION

1. Your life situation exists in time (outwardly looking). Your life is now (inwardly looking).
2. Your life situation is mind-stuff (outwardly looking). Your life is real (inwardly looking).
3. Find the "narrow gate that leads to life (inwardly looking). It is called the NOW (inwardly looking). Narrow your life down to this moment (abide in the SELF).
4. Your life situation may be full of problems (outwardly looking). But your life is empty of problems (inwardly looking).

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autumnsphere
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Re: Presence

Post by autumnsphere » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:33 am

Yes, yes, yes. :)
Forget spiritual practice - just do drugs!

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Kutso
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Re: Presence

Post by Kutso » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:44 am

ashley72 wrote:Watching thoughts is not looking inward. Watching feelings is not looking inward. Watching breathing is not looking inward. Only turning the attention away from the observed and towards the observer is looking inward. Only awareness watching awareness is looking inward.
Actually, there is no inward or outward. There's only this. Watching thoughts and feelings can be a good practice in the beginning, since strengthens the notion that you are not something in particular. It must, however, eventually be dropped.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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autumnsphere
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Re: Presence

Post by autumnsphere » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:45 pm

Actually, it's kind of a Möbius strip, you know, or a couple of them interwoven together - intensive looking inward dissolves boundaries, and inward becomes outward.

Something like this:

Image

Someone on Jed's forum said "To wake up in the cinema is not like to go out of it." and he replied:

"The cinema metaphor crumbles as you, i.e. the non-existant 'you', gets that there is no theatre, no screen, no actors, no 'you'. How could you leave? Who would leave? Go beyond the concepts. You were never there, never born, will never die, but there is something, there is 'that' which cannot be expressed, be we fools keep trying."

I concur.
Forget spiritual practice - just do drugs!

arel
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Re: Presence

Post by arel » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:52 pm

key master wrote:In my previous post, i was inferring that you were interpreting "presence" as mind's absence, and this is the seeming experience of "knowing presence is present",
I'll comment on what I can figure out/interpret in your posts. Mind is never absent. Even when thinking stops, knowledge of something always goes on, even in deep presence, to know it, there is mind that records the knowledge of aware space being present as the forefront of experience. Please tell me when mind is absent. It's with mind I can say that yes, there is always awareness, in the background of every experience, and non-experience as well (sleep), but I can only say this using mind or in retrospect, reflecting on my experience right now.
key master wrote:While it may seem like "you" arent always present, its what isnt you to begin with coming and going which makes it seem like presence isn't staying.
We are not using word Presence in the same way. I guess it is more accurate to use it as Presence of self-awareness. Is that always present?

SandyJoy -- those are some sweet words. I disagree with you disagreeing with me :) but those are sweet words.


Kutso wrote:You are contradicting yourself. At the same time you say "I am not always present", and then you say "presence is a happening in what I am". If you were not always present, then you would not be able to see the arising and subsiding of the phenomenon you call "presence".
Yes sounds very contradicting. I have no problem with that. You pointing that out rings true to me. How about if I rephrase it "I'm not always self-aware, phenomenon of presence happens in myself, where I become aware of myself, as this now moment that is always, in every experience, and is self evident in this self aware presence" some nonsense like that :)
Ashley wrote:Watching thoughts is not looking inward. Watching feelings is not looking inward. Watching breathing is not looking inward. Only turning the attention away from the observed and towards the observer is looking inward. Only awareness watching awareness is looking inward.
Ashley, maybe one could say that. Don't you think watching those things also gets you much closer to dropping to see what is watching?
Ashley wrote:To inhere in the Self is the thing. That is all you need to do. Just rest while sensing your Self. Just hold on to the sense ‘I am’ tenaciously
Amen.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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autumnsphere
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Re: Presence

Post by autumnsphere » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:23 pm

Mind is never absent. Even when thinking stops, knowledge of something always goes on, even in deep presence, to know it, there is mind that records the knowledge of aware space being present as the forefront of experience. Please tell me when mind is absent.
I've had moments when mind was absent, those moments are equal to blackouts. They are scary as shit but only til mind disappears. Actually those moments are even beyond experience. This is why "the Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name."
Afterwards those moments are interpreted as absence of the mind by the mind.

As far as I understand, we have two terms here:
1. mind
2. awareness, recognition (this is "knowledge of something" in your post)

I'm not sure awareness exists when mind is absent actually, that's food for thought. We have to define awareness first.
Forget spiritual practice - just do drugs!

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