Presence

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arel
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Re: Presence

Post by arel » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:03 am

key master wrote:even my arch nemesis arel.
This cracked me up, thank you. I managed to get an arch nemesis on an internet forum with a cheesy picture of a funny looking guy at the top, with supposedly peace loving spiritual beings that like to eat vegetables :)
What I say is only my viewpoint.

arel
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Re: Presence

Post by arel » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:07 am

Kutso wrote:I think you need to clarify your definition of "mind".
Mind is all senses, emotions and thoughts. Thoughts are memories, images of the senses.
Kutso wrote:Again, the mind is not the knower. There is experience of some sort that is known. Then there may come thoughts in form of memories about that experience later, which also are known. Also, I would like to know what you mean be "deep presence". It there different levels of presence?
I agree, the mind is known if we use duality of known vs the knower as a pointer. Since we talk about Presence, then it's a phenomena recorded in memory, but when it is experienced in the moment, there is mystery in it, along with knowledge/feeling that I know that real "I" that we we all mention so much. And yes there are levels of presence for me. And I can measure it by the absence of mind, it disappears to the periphery of my attention. I notice abscence of mind happens to deeper degree the more self awareness there is, which I call Presence.
Kutso wrote:
arel wrote:It's with mind I can say that yes, there is always awareness, in the background of every experience, and non-experience as well (sleep), but I can only say this using mind or in retrospect, reflecting on my experience right now.
Correct, it is with mind that you can SAY this. However, it is not with mind that you know this. There's a BIG difference.
Yes big difference. I know and somehow it immediately becomes knowledge, about which we talk about, and all the religions do too.
Kutso wrote:
arel wrote:We are not using word Presence in the same way. I guess it is more accurate to use it as Presence of self-awareness. Is that always present?
Okay, so you say "presence" is the same as "Self-awareness", which is what exactly? How do you define "Self-awareness"?
Is this a trick question? :) How do you suggest I do that, where there are volumes of text that tries to. Right now I'd say, discrimination between known and knower, and sensing that knower as the true "I'.
Kutso wrote:
arel wrote:How about if I rephrase it "I'm not always self-aware, phenomenon of presence happens in myself, where I become aware of myself, as this now moment that is always, in every experience, and is self evident in this self aware presence" some nonsense like that
So, are you saying that you don't always know that you are?
Hm is that one of those mind stopping question? Nice. More like don't always know who/what I am.
Kutso wrote:Ashley wrote:
To inhere in the Self is the thing. That is all you need to do. Just rest while sensing your Self. Just hold on to the sense ‘I am’ tenaciously
Just a side note to this. The sense of 'I am' is also known.[/quote][/quote]

Yes, this is great. I am that. And That is also known. So who am I? :) Something to contemplate and experience.
Last edited by arel on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

arel
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Re: Presence

Post by arel » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:14 am

Kutso wrote:I think you need to clarify your definition of "mind".
Mind is all senses, emotions and thoughts. Thoughts are memories, images of the senses.
Kutso wrote:Again, the mind is not the knower. There is experience of some sort that is known. Then there may come thoughts in form of memories about that experience later, which also are known. Also, I would like to know what you mean be "deep presence". It there different levels of presence?
I agree, the mind is known if we use duality of known vs the knower as a pointer. Since we talk about Presence, then it's a phenomena recorded in memory, but when it is experienced in the moment, there is mystery in it, along with knowledge/feeling that I know that real "I" that we we all mention so much. And yes there are levels of presence for me. And I can measure it by the absence of mind, it disappears to the periphery of my attention. I notice abscence of mind happens to deeper degree the more self awareness there is, which I call Presence.
Kutso wrote:
arel wrote:It's with mind I can say that yes, there is always awareness, in the background of every experience, and non-experience as well (sleep), but I can only say this using mind or in retrospect, reflecting on my experience right now.
Correct, it is with mind that you can SAY this. However, it is not with mind that you know this. There's a BIG difference.
Yes big difference. I know and somehow it immediately becomes knowledge, about which we talk about, and all the religions do too.
Kutso wrote:
arel wrote:We are not using word Presence in the same way. I guess it is more accurate to use it as Presence of self-awareness. Is that always present?
Okay, so you say "presence" is the same as "Self-awareness", which is what exactly? How do you define "Self-awareness"?
Is this a trick question? :) How do you suggest I do that, where there are volumes of text that tries to. Right now I'd say, discrimination between known and knower, and sensing that knower as the true "I'.
Kutso wrote:
arel wrote:How about if I rephrase it "I'm not always self-aware, phenomenon of presence happens in myself, where I become aware of myself, as this now moment that is always, in every experience, and is self evident in this self aware presence" some nonsense like that
So, are you saying that you don't always know that you are?
[/quote]

Hm is that one of those mind stopping question? Nice. More like don't always know who/what I am.
Kutso wrote:
Ashley wrote: To inhere in the Self is the thing. That is all you need to do. Just rest while sensing your Self. Just hold on to the sense ‘I am’ tenaciously
Just a side note to this. The sense of 'I am' is also known.
Yes, this is great. I am that. And That is also known. So who am I? :) Something to contemplate and experience.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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ashley72
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Re: Presence

Post by ashley72 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:34 am

arel wrote:Yes, this is great. I am that. And That is also known. So who am I? :) Something to contemplate and experience.
All know that the drop merges into the ocean, but few know that the ocean merges into the drop. - Ramana Mahrarshi


When you have caught the Supreme Moment, you suddenly come to know Who you really are. At that instant, when you have found your Self, the whole universe will have become yours. - Ananda Mayi Ma

If the soul would but stay within, she would have everything. - Meister Eckhart


The whole great Earth is nothing but you. - Hsueh-fen

You never enjoy the world aright till the sea itself floweth in your veins, till you are clothed with the heavens and crowned with the stars; and perceive yourself to be the sole heir of the whole world. - Traherne

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Kutso
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Re: Presence

Post by Kutso » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 am

autumnsphere wrote:I'm not saying that when I stop my thoughts, the mind disappears, exactly the opposite! Stopping your thoughts through the "I" is still the mind's doing.
And this is what I am saying too. The one that is stopping the thoughts is itself a thought. Absence of mind is absence of thought, including this "I" that stops thoughts.

As I see it, mind IS thought. If you are saying that mind is something more, then you must explain what this "more" is, and how you have come to the conclusion that it is the mind.
autumnsphere wrote:The LSD experience was pretty emotional, and it was an experience, I WAS thinking.
There you go again, taking credit for thinking. There is no thinker thinking thoughts. Thoughts arise and dissipate. The one that says "I was thinking" is itself a thought.
autumnsphere wrote:I tried DMT though which is like LSD x 1000, haha, and this is where you fukcing disappear.
Yes, I've read about this too. What you must understand is that it is not YOU that disappear. It is the idea of "you" that does.
autumnsphere wrote:DMT is like dying - so there is a moment where your body is gone, then your mind breaks to a thousand pieces, and then... well, then there is nothing. Literally nothing. No experience, no feeling, no emotions, no thoughts, no awareness, you are fukcing gone. When you open your eyes, you're like: What the fffff? Did I just die, did I just get born? And the mind starts looking for words, looking for an experience but... all it can remember is void. You can't even remember this void. You remember falling into it, and coming out of it, that's it.
Interesting as this is, YOU are not gone. YOU can never be gone. Sure, the idea you have of "you" can vanish. But the very fact that you had the experience of "no phenomenon" shows that YOU were there to experience it.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Kutso
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Re: Presence

Post by Kutso » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:21 am

arel wrote:Mind is all senses, emotions and thoughts.
Now we are getting somewhere. When you are saying "mind is all senses", do you mean senses as in sight, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting? Because I think it is important to make a distinction here and define that the senses are "not mind", simply because the senses are just receptors, but it is the very ideas of what these receptors is receiving that is distorting reality.
arel wrote:Thoughts are memories, images of the senses.
I would rather put it the other way around. Memories are thoughts, and images is also thoughts. There can be memory images that shows something that the senses picked up once, or maybe memory images that is believed to be picked up by the senses once.
arel wrote:I agree, the mind is known if we use duality of known vs the knower as a pointer. Since we talk about Presence, then it's a phenomena recorded in memory, but when it is experienced in the moment, there is mystery in it, along with knowledge/feeling that I know that real "I" that we we all mention so much.
Yes, I agree that when we talk about it, and an image of "presence" appear, it is a phenomenon. That does not, however, mean that the actual Presence is a phenomenon. Just that the memory image of "presence" is a phenomenon.
About knowledge; knowledge is not really that important. Knowledge comes second hand. In order to have knowledge, there must first be "someone" by which knowledge is known. THAT is more important to investigate.
arel wrote:Is this a trick question? How do you suggest I do that, where there are volumes of text that tries to. Right now I'd say, discrimination between known and knower, and sensing that knower as the true "I'.
You do say that Presence is a phenomenon, and then you say that Presence is Self-awareness. One could therefore by your defining conclude that Self-awareness is a phenomenon. The very definition of a phenomenon is that it has qualities. If it has qualities, then it is somewhat describable. Therefore I ask you, how do you define "Self-awareness"?
arel wrote:Hm is that one of those mind stopping question? Nice. More like don't always know who/what I am.
Are you now saying that you sometimes know who/what you are?
arel wrote:Yes, this is great. I am that. And That is also known. So who am I? Something to contemplate and experience.
Indeed. This is for everyone: Don't just try find an answer to this. Go into this. You know that you are. The sense of "I am" is also known, and therefore this must also be a phenomenon.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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SandyJoy
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Re: Presence

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:38 pm

For me, Presence has always been a very beautiful word; It is a word that immediately brings Me Here to The Presence, It is a word that speaks of God’s Infinite Self and it means This Self is All that Is and the Joy of Knowing It is All That I Am.

This Life we Live is The Living Presence living Itself. I love the word The Living Presence, it just says it all.

We are Living The Holy Presence, It is Life Itself, It is This Right Here and there is no other ‘right here’ than This.

Rather than chewing and spewing semantics, being erudite and intellectually trying to beat the meanings out of words, how about using your senses, your whole self, your body, yes indeed your emotions, perhaps mostly your emotions, all your being; the direct knowing is more about the Heart, not the intellect.

you can feel It’s Holy Breath breathing this Life you are, breathing the whole in and out of the beating pulse of this entire universe, from the Pleiades and endless galaxies filled with stars, to the very light in your eyes right now.

Rather than using the mind, try using your senses. The senses are very good at perceiving God's Totality which is this Living One, which you are already being right now. It is right Here but, all the intellectual labeling and dividing distracts from noticing This Living One.

You ask about Presence and then swiftly go down the road that takes us further from noticing It is always Here.

We feel This Living Presence in our soul, in our Heart, in our very being, not in 'just the mind' or "just the brain' or some "part" of us--- Use your Whole Being, It is perceived more by way of our full openness of all the senses, the whole being, the body, mind and heart, the emotions, feelings that move us, move the very soul of us.

We can be stimulated by the very beauty of Life Itself to notice this Living One; this was the original reason we created churches in ancient times. You know that feeling you get when you go into one of those old churches in Europe, there is a sense of Holy Presence, the ambiance of candles, stained glass, colors, the memory stored in those stone walls, incense, the high ceilings, Gregorian chants, a mood is created and it all combines to awaken our senses to This Abiding Presence.

For some it happens in the temples of India, it is all created for the stimulations of the senses to awaken us this Living Presence.

For many of us, it happens when in nature, seeing and feeling the beauty and Majesty one feels when in a grove of ancient trees, the Love and Power is Present and Alive there, we feel Its Presence. It comes through the whole body of our senses, we can feel this Living Presence as we enjoy the crystal clear river and cool waters, the sounds of the forest, the smell of fresh pines, the gentle breeze of fresh mountain air.

Or when you go deep into the woods, there is that remarkable silent softness and quiet of a holy stillness and yet its all alive with growth and beauty and gleaming streams of light coming down through the leaves and glittering the green wet grassy earth.

You don't have to go the woods or to an ashram, you can feel It right here, It is a Living Presence, and you can see and say It is Everywhere I Am.

If you become aware that This sense of the Holy Presence is always here where ever you are, If you are not afraid to open up, wide open and completely to Life no matter where you are, you will feel Its Grace Everywhere, It is here when you are washing the dishes and here when you type your words into the computer, and here when the tv is on and here when you are thinking or not or stuck in traffic and late for your appointment, or paying the bills.

Once you begin to open yourself to This Divine Light of Our Living Presence you cannot be anywhere else, It is with you always, It is flowing as Your Very Life, It is What You Are. No need for this struggle to separate mind from awareness or body from mind or eyes from head or head from body or inside from outside, or turning this way or that way, or looking out or looking in, or going to church or going to an ashram or being quite of being loud, no need to do anything really, because one you recognize the same feeling you get in the Garden of Eden is Acutally never not here.

His disciples said to Him : "When will the Kingdom come?" Jesus said : "It does not come by expecting it. It will not be a matter of saying : 'See, it is here !' or : 'Look, it is there !' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread over the earth and men do not see it."

Much Love, SandyJoy
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:52 pm

arel said,
Mind is never absent. Even when thinking stops, knowledge of something always goes on, even in deep presence, to know it, there is mind that records the knowledge of aware space being present as the forefront of experience. Please tell me when mind is absent. It's with mind I can say that yes, there is always awareness, in the background of every experience, and non-experience as well (sleep), but I can only say this using mind or in retrospect, reflecting on my experience right now.
Right. The knowledge of aware space being present isn’t the aware space which is present. The mind creates knowledge “of something which isn’t mind” through reference to what can be defined experientially. The mind creates the “experience of being the aware space” upon reflection only. Not only is the reflection not the actual experience, but you are not the “thingy which is reflecting”. No mind is a myth, in that the conceptualization of a period of time when mind/thought is supposedly absent becomes the experience of the mind which is supposedly absent. The boundaries of time cannot bind something which is timeless in essence, and yet this is precisely what mind’s conceptualization process does.
We are not using word Presence in the same way. I guess it is more accurate to use it as Presence of self-awareness. Is that always present?
The presence of “something else”, whether we call that self awareness or even the presence of presence, is an experience appearing in consciousness. This experience is a creation of mind, and it is an illusion only. The “layering onto the actualized experience” is the addition of something which isn’t actually here, namely, a person who is having an experience. And yet, the experience of Presence can be interpreted as something “much more than the mere absence of thought or mind or the separate self”. A “felt sense of Oneness with Being” can be felt or sensed by the appearances which are appearing, including the body, which we may as well call the body/mind. At no point does this limit consciousness to an individual appearance or a separate expression or confirm the actuality of a separate person. Consciousness is not the body mind, is not “something” which “it” is “conscious of”.

Whenever we talk about consciousness of something else, or awareness of anything, we are discussing reality from within the parameters of dualistic experience, a “this” which is separate from “that”, which possesses utility in allowing the mind to set up a framework to understand its own delusional makeup. Its not as if separation is actually real and there is something mind can do to unseparate stuff, but to posit that there is nothing mind can do to become more conscious or to facilitate the awakening process is total nonsense. If it isn’t “noticed” how mind is deluding itself then how will mind stop deluding itself? Consciousness allows mind to become more conscious of itself through turning around on its own thought processes. Freedom comes about in the absence of something which appears here, not in the presence of something attained.

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:18 am

kutso said,

Again, it depends on you definition of "mind". I would say absence of mind is the absence of thoughts.
Yes, this is pretty much what I mean also when I say absence of mind. Although, I wouldnt define mind as merely thoughts, but would also include the dynamics of the conditioning and what not.

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:26 am

middie said,
They still play?
Ha yea cmon its not like theyre the freakn rollin stones(who are still goin strong). Was a sick show 4sho. Seats were a little high up, but i snuck down to the lower level in hopes of making myself more deaf than i already am. Im pretty sure i succeeded :lol:

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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:30 am

kiki said,
I've never viewed this as a negative experience, or one that I wouldn't want to have again. It's never frightened me in the least, and I would in fact welcome it again. Why? I haven't a clue, except that I somehow feel that it was wonderful. It literally felt like being born again, but not in the Christianity sense, but an actual rebirth as a human.
Why dont you pm her and get the name of her drug dealer? :mrgreen:

the key master
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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:42 am

ash said
Watching thoughts & feelings is a good first step... certainly not the main practice. Watching thoughts & feelings helps you realise that you're not that. It doesn't awaken the individual from the dream
When thoughts and feelings are noticed or watched, then there is a “conscious space” within which mind can consciously engage itself. The only issue with watching as a practice is that it splits the mind into a thinker and something which thinks it isn’t a thinker, which can lead to suppression of unconscious mind as opposed to the expostion of unconscious tendencies. What is conscious of mind is already conscious of mind without mind doing anything. When certain tendencies are "noticed" or "made conscious", then the opportunity arises for mind to take a look at what's actually going on, which is what the "becoming conscious process" is all about.
Once you've realised that you're not what comes & goes (thoughts & feelings).... you need to turn the arrow of attention 180 degrees back to where the head/face resides and stay with that.... that formless spaciousness which never comes & goes. It is eternal awareness. But the eternal awareness only becomes beneficial if you stay or abide with it permanently
Once you’ve realized youre not what comes and goes, you still need to do something?
Once you know how to practice "Awareness watching Awareness"..... you need to abide as often as possible. If you can do it 12 hrs (awakening) a day all the better. If you only give it 30 mins a day... it won't be enough to awaken from the dream.
This sounds like mind suppressing its own thought processes. If what you are is already awareness, why are we pretending to be the mind that thinks its abiding in some mind state? The mind cant actually practice being something which isn't mind.

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Re: Presence

Post by the key master » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:50 am

arel said,
key master wrote:
even my arch nemesis arel.

This cracked me up, thank you. I managed to get an arch nemesis on an internet forum with a cheesy picture of a funny looking guy at the top, with supposedly peace loving spiritual beings that like to eat vegetables
:lol:

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Midnight
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Re: Presence

Post by Midnight » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:12 am

kiki wrote:
DMT is like dying - so there is a moment where your body is gone, then your mind breaks to a thousand pieces, and then... well, then there is nothing. Literally nothing. No experience, no feeling, no emotions, no thoughts, no awareness, you are fukcing gone. When you open your eyes, you're like: What the fffff? Did I just die, did I just get born? And the mind starts looking for words, looking for an experience but... all it can remember is void. You can't even remember this void. You remember falling into it, and coming out of it, that's it.
I've had this experience several times (though the last time was probably 12 - 15 years ago) after lying down after meditating. Everything completely disappeared and there was absolutely nothing - just nothing at all. Only after coming out of it was I aware that something unusual had happened, but the coming out of it was quite interesting because I came out a "layer" at a time.

After regaining awareness I wouldn't even know if I was a human being at first, and then it would come to me that I was, then the thought would come "who am I?" After regaining my identity as kiki the thought would come, "where am I?", and then "what time of day is it?" To my astonishment I would find that an hour to an hour and a half had passed while I was completely gone, but gone "where" is still a complete mystery. Unlike you, autumn, I never remembered falling into it, only the coming out.

I've never viewed this as a negative experience, or one that I wouldn't want to have again. It's never frightened me in the least, and I would in fact welcome it again. Why? I haven't a clue, except that I somehow feel that it was wonderful. It literally felt like being born again, but not in the Christianity sense, but an actual rebirth as a human.

I related this experience to Leonard Jacobson and he didn't know what happened, but he still called this "(non)experience" a kind of grace.
That sounds like my worst nightmare. Though I'm going through something similar on a daily basis. When I wake up I have no idea who I am or where I am for the first few minutes. I absolutely hate it.

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Re: Presence

Post by runstrails » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:39 am

Midnight wrote:

kiki wrote:
DMT is like dying - so there is a moment where your body is gone, then your mind breaks to a thousand pieces, and then... well, then there is nothing. Literally nothing. No experience, no feeling, no emotions, no thoughts, no awareness, you are fukcing gone. When you open your eyes, you're like: What the fffff? Did I just die, did I just get born? And the mind starts looking for words, looking for an experience but... all it can remember is void. You can't even remember this void. You remember falling into it, and coming out of it, that's it.

I've had this experience several times (though the last time was probably 12 - 15 years ago) after lying down after meditating. Everything completely disappeared and there was absolutely nothing - just nothing at all. Only after coming out of it was I aware that something unusual had happened, but the coming out of it was quite interesting because I came out a "layer" at a time.

After regaining awareness I wouldn't even know if I was a human being at first, and then it would come to me that I was, then the thought would come "who am I?" After regaining my identity as kiki the thought would come, "where am I?", and then "what time of day is it?" To my astonishment I would find that an hour to an hour and a half had passed while I was completely gone, but gone "where" is still a complete mystery. Unlike you, autumn, I never remembered falling into it, only the coming out.

I've never viewed this as a negative experience, or one that I wouldn't want to have again. It's never frightened me in the least, and I would in fact welcome it again. Why? I haven't a clue, except that I somehow feel that it was wonderful. It literally felt like being born again, but not in the Christianity sense, but an actual rebirth as a human.

I related this experience to Leonard Jacobson and he didn't know what happened, but he still called this "(non)experience" a kind of grace.

That sounds like my worst nightmare. Though I'm going through something similar on a daily basis. When I wake up I have no idea who I am or where I am for the first few minutes. I absolutely hate it.
Something very similar happened to me once when I was super jet lagged. I didn't know who or where I was, it was a complete blank sheet...then I came to 'layer by layer' as it were. It didn't bother me. But it was very cool to see the layers of identity re-appearing gradually.

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