The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

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The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Sighclone » Thu May 31, 2012 1:28 pm

Before I comment on this, may I say that, on my “path/no-path” Rupert Spira’s “Presence – Volumes I and II,” published in late 2011, has been, far and away, the most current, best, deepest and clearest expression in words of “what’s really going on here.” I have attended two satsangs with him, both at SAND III. What follows is fully derivative of his writing (and, of course, my experience.)

He says, on page 165 of Volume II: “Enlightenment is the end of one process, the process of thinking and feeling ourselves to be a separate and limited inside self, but the beginning of another. It is the beginning of the alignment of the body, mind and world with this new understanding.”

He later explains the process of constant thinking: “During any thought, sensation or perception, there is only thinking, sensing or perceiving taking place. When the thought, sensation or perception comes to an end, the mind immediately rises up again and creates a “filler” thought. This filler thought is the “I” thought. With this thought, the apparently separate “I” is created and is imagined to have been present during the previous thought, sensation or perception, as its creator and witness.”

Elsewhere he speaks of the “winding down” of all these habits of life we have accumulated. He says it might take decades for them all finally to cease appearing. With respect to the thought-stream, life changes from a sequence of “perception, “I” thought, perception, “I” thought, etc. to perception, presence, perception, presence, etc. (I paraphrase.) He concludes: “And gradually, without effort on our part, the presence that shines between perceptions is also understood experientially to run throughout all perceptions. In other words, aware presence is known to be ever-present and to sometimes ‘take the shape’ of thinking, sensing or perceiving.” He mentions elsewhere that the thought-stream is a significant societal and individual addiction. But encourages us that it dies on its own, over time.

These are just a few of his splendid expressions of “our” experience with the dissolution of the “separate inside self,” and a replacement of that with simply “this” (aware presence.) Towards the end of Volume II he is especially clear on the "witness" and its meaning, and the transition from identifying "I" as "little me", through the arising of the witness, and the very intimate experience of the immanence of substance: "We simultaneously know the world and are the world."

All good stuff!

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by heidi » Thu May 31, 2012 2:46 pm

Thanks for sharing that, Andy! :D
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Rick » Thu May 31, 2012 10:30 pm

Sighclone wrote: he is especially clear on the "witness" and its meaning, and the transition from identifying "I" as "little me", through the arising of the witness, and the very intimate experience of the immanence of substance: "We simultaneously know the world and are the world."
Andy, interesting you mention this. This is also a good time to thank you for mentioning Jean Klein some time back. I have been reading his works and find him particularly brilliant, even as it is clearly evident that he speaks from a perspective on the other side of the veil, and I can't always get my hands around what he speaks of. In particular he says in several places something to the effect..."we are not in the world, the world is in us". He says it is important to see this. It is similar to what you quote above. At first it "fried" my brain to contemplate the idea...much like the first time I tried to comprehend that "God always is, and always will be" when a child. Little did I know then that I had crashed into the limits of my mind. But I suspect that what JK and your man above are saying has something to do with the idea that the world is a dream of Source, conjured and existing with the Mind of Source, much like the dream worlds we conjure and visit in our sleep. And since we are of the same substance as Source, why would we not eventually know that we share the same perspective? In any case, when Grace pulls me through the veil at last, I will report what I see. Until then, I leave it all in my unknowing.
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by ashley72 » Thu May 31, 2012 11:08 pm

Rick,

"we are not in the world, the world is in us".

This is a Gestalt flip. We stop perceiving ourselves as someone moving from A to B... and instead apperceive everything in the world moves inside us.

Heres a video that may help with causing a spontaneous gestalt flip.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV8TaQCm ... ata_player

The more inwardly attentive (apperceptive) - the more abiding this perspective is.

Our bodies move in time, but at center our attentive nature is timeless and doesnt move through space.
When our attention is outward, we perceive our body as moving thru space & time. When inwardly attentive we connect with our still center, body still looks like it moves through space... but that is seen as merely an illusion from the perspective of our still unmoving center. :D

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by kiki » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:56 am

Our bodies move in time, but at center our attentive nature is timeless and doesnt move through space.
When our attention is outward, we perceive our body as moving thru space & time. When inwardly attentive we connect with our still center, body still looks like it moves through space... but that is seen as merely an illusion from the perspective of our still unmoving center.
Nicely said, ashley.
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Rick » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:10 pm

ashley72 wrote:
"we are not in the world, the world is in us".

This is a Gestalt flip. We stop perceiving ourselves as someone moving from A to B... and instead apperceive everything in the world moves inside us.

Heres a video that may help with causing a spontaneous gestalt flip.
I think you are correct Ash when you use the word "spontaneous". Enlightenment, salvation, right thinking thinking/viewing, call it what you will, is an effortless and completely spontaneous happening as far as I can tell reading about others experiences. Tolle is a great example of someone who had something very special happen to him by complete and utter surprise...without ambition, trying or expecting anything. There is, as Jean Klein says, a "waiting without anyone waiting" indicating a very special, yet egoless attitude, that may bring us to the threshold that only Grace allows us to cross. Tolle stumbled upon this attitude quiet innocently, quite unknowingly and Grace pushed him through the Veil.

I was intrigued by another Jean Klein statement where he talks about Existence...He calls it "Silence...the absence of your absence" Here, there is an absence of all, never mind just an absent head. For as long as you "know" you are without a head, there is still a "you", a "someone" experiencing an absence of a head. And as long as there is a "you", a "someone" without a head...there is duality.
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by ashley72 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:10 am

Rick,

The reason the "head" is important - is most people have the sense of "I" right between the eyes. Not everyone but most people. All the major sense organs also reside in the "head" so it's definitely a good place to start.

I've posted this before... I'm sure you've seen it. But mainly for the benefit for others following this thread now or in the future.... I will link this powerful video instruction by Greg Goode which helps the seeker locate the I-Sense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYjI6gh9 ... ata_player

The point of this instruction is to first locate that I-sense. Once located you realise that to actually find it you must be outside of it. You must somehow attend to this object. What is this attentive nature outside attending to this sense of I (object) in between the eyes? It's a sense that has been there my whole life attending to all objects.

How does the the eye see itself? How does the ear hear itself? How does the tongue taste itself? How does the nose smell itself? How does perception perceive itself? How does the body-senses sense itself?

This is kind of apperception... It's not a form that can be disciminated... It's formless attention sensing itself.

It's like a that... completely unknowable but always here... eternal.

In other words, our true self can't be found as an object. It is nowhere to be found. But yet we realize it's THAT which is attending to all objects that come & go.

THAT is a mystery.

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:40 am

Rupert Spira studied under Francis Lucille who was a pupil of Jean Klein. I also struggle with some of JK's phrasing. Thank you all for your lovely follow-ups.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by rideforever » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:12 am

I don't think this is much of a perspective. These are the words of someone desperate to get rid of something, not of someone with some overall understanding. Not of someone who is adding anything.

Thoughtless awareness. Thoughtless awareness. Thoughtless awareness. Thoughtless awareness. Is there anyone who can go beyond this ? This is not 1 place. There are many places 'beyond' (so-called) thought. Anybody want to talk about them ?

He talks of the addiction to thought. Part of that addiction is the addiction to only be able to think about getting rid of it.

It's incredibly primitive. Like many 'teachers' he is just a drowning man unable to comprehend anything but his drowning.

It's not much of an insight to say : "there is a problem".

The spiritual culture on this planet is incredibly primitive, filled only with drowning men who can't look further than the tip of their own nose. It's not far removed from totally unconscious.
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by kiki » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:18 pm

Thoughtless awareness. Thoughtless awareness. Thoughtless awareness. Thoughtless awareness. Is there anyone who can go beyond this ? This is not 1 place. There are many places 'beyond' (so-called) thought. Anybody want to talk about them ?
Well, how about you? What do you have to say about "places beyond (so called) thought"? Have you gone beyond this? Why not give people the benefit of your direct insight. It's quite the conundrum you've set before people.
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by rideforever » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:44 pm

I enter into it regularly now, willingly or unwillingly. But I am in darkness and looking for a guide. The only guide I know is Anadi.

The unconsciousness is very dark. Much darker than is appreciated. The level of so-called intelligence is incredibly low in humans. But humans spend most of their time trying to impress each other; each word, each statement, each action is just away to pretend you know something and impress someone. Really there is nothing. Just shimmering layers of mechanical unconsciousness. Darkness in many shades. And some set up camp 1 cm from where they started and start writing books about their achievement.

The entire spiritual group is just one cm further on a journey that is very long. Yes we live in a time of awakening when en-masse millions of people move 1 cm further on this very long journey. If you put a spoon into the darkness and stir it, this kind of thing can happen. But it just another shade of darkness.

The sense I have is that for every 100 seekers only 1 will move further than a small step.

And the only possible salvation is to utterly surrender your entire existence as a 'human', to surrender time, not to die ... but to relinquish yourself in a much greater way than that. To risk far more than just dying.

Yes, to risk existing. Most 'people' do not exist because there is nothing there.

This is why there is prayer; it is the sincerity
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by SandyJoy » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:36 pm

Rideforever,

I have found just the opposite. I found Life again, right here, right where I alway was, I re-discovered My very own Self and I came alive to Live again ---There was No big dark empty void of no-thing, though for a time thought that was the goal in some strange way--

But what I actually found and really found and without doubt I found is Life Itself, Here, This, Now, Me, Life and a big vast joyful, abundant, full and overflowing Life of Beauty and Love--- This Living Presence, is What Is and It includes all that we see and all that we do not see --and This Is filled with LIght and includes the Infinity of Its Self Knowing as a world of bounty and fruits of the Living Tree of Life---

Life, Truth, Reality includes the marvels and miracles of Language and words, thoughts, thinking, wondering about, It includes principles unseen and the numbers and math and voice and singing and song and music and color---more color than meets the everyday eye--

Intelligence, Divine Intelligence is not without the Total Knowing of Its Self ---It is This World we Live ---and I found This World is My Self Knowing In Action and in the Activity of Knowing It Self---I am filled with Life and Life fills All That I Am---I am seeing the Beauty of God's Love everywhere, and includes All That Is, and Its Isness and Being Includes every individual and every thought you think, and There is Nothing outside of This---with all its beauty right here---books and science and thinking and creating and ideas---flowers and rain and food and things including the time of birth and death, day and night, war and hate, division and disaster, pain and heartbreak---All so perfect when Really Seen in the Light of Truth---from the Light of Truth we Understand and In the Understanding we are free to Love and free from fear of Life.

You, just the way you are, You are Loved by God in ways beyond measure and nothing is taken away from us---It is Given Ten fold over to us, with Great Joy and Love---we take what is ours, our Inheritance is God's Joy to Give us all That God Is---Here and Now.

This Timeless Isness of our Very Being includes the sense of time and history and past and future---All the Vast Wonder of God's Living Light that we are the Awareness of and that includes our thoughts---

It is not about getting rid of ---it is about embracing, being In Love With---Love takes Two or more and God is Love--God and identity, Identity is You---Two that are one in the same thing---Identity is not gone, but re-discovered and Lived Now In the fullness of Our True Light-- and the door opens to MORE and we Grow and we do Become and Life unfolds and we learn and learn more ---we walk through the door and nothing ends, but the world becomes New--a New Dimension is found and we can explore the Allness of Our Being and Give to our world, each in his own way, as best we can, we give this Light of Truth that has found us, the Light of Identity that has freed us.

God is not emptiness or a vast dark nothing---God is This, Right Here, Just the way It Is---Love is the answer---Love is the answer and Love means to become one with and embrace All That YOU Are---you are being It already, This Is It, look around it is Full and Unceasing, It Abounds with tangible Light and Unseen Light and all kinds of things and matter and stuff, Infinite, the 'stuff' is Infinite and there is so much More we can discover here---and we have Eternity to make these discoveries of the MORE that God Is ---Enjoy Your Self--- Enjoy the Light of Love That is BEing All That You ARe and All That Is---

God includes Thought Steams and babbling cool mountain streams! All steams are God's Alone and we Let It Be and Love the Being---

Love God and Love others as your self---that's about it, that about says it all...
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by rideforever » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:09 pm

That's great SandyJoy. I feel divinity too coursing through me.

This is the beginning of existing.
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Donna » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:23 pm

rideforever wrote: The level of so-called intelligence is incredibly low in humans. But humans spend most of their time trying to impress each other; each word, each statement, each action is just away to pretend you know something and impress someone. Really there is nothing.
Hey rideforever,
Are you human? Are you spending most of your time trying to impress with your words, each statement, each action, pretending you know something?

I am only stating back what you said in order make sure I understand what you are saying.

I find it funny how you say "Really" there is "nothing". So what is real to you?
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by rideforever » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:59 pm

Donna wrote:..
Yes, clearly by observing myself I can see how things are.

Nothing : I heard once that compassion is misguided. Because for most 'people' there is nothing there to feel anything about. Because nothing has been developed within this form. Within this opportunity. Who do you feel compassion for ?

Of course in the garbage of society people talk about human rights. They don't question whether there is anybody there in the first place. This is the basic extremely low level of intelligence I am talking about. Or we could talk about Philosophy a discipline were the brightest in society achieve nothing over 5000 years. Can intelligence be lower than this ? It is so low and has momentum.

All these streams of culture are just different levels of garbage.

I am not an expert, but existence, existing seems quite rare - and of an order so completely different from this. A different existence entirely. As for what I am - I don't know.

My mind is still bright enough to have penetrated many strata of 'society' and realised conceptually that if anything 'real' exists it must be utterly different. And to have seen first hand the incredible creativity in self-delusion that humans have and that knows no end. Why has this happened to me ? Probably because 20 years of abuse when I was young caused me to have very little relationship with others or with culture, and under duress forced be to observe the abusers very very closely and to understand how their minds work. And to be born wanting to be alive very badly indeed.

These days I say to people that I want to live to 150. They laugh and say they are ready to die at 80. Really, they are ready to die now - that is how people are commonly.

----------------------

Children of a certain age ask "why ?" a lot. "Why is the sky blue ?" ... because of the sun going through the atmosphere ... "Why ?" ... because the light comes out of the sun ... "Why ?" .... because the sun is a giant nuclear reactor giving off heat and light ... "Why ?" ...

All children go through a phase like this driving their parents crazy. What the meaning of it ? What is the child asking ?

What he is asking is - "Why ANYTHING ?" .... or .... "What IS OCCURRING ?". This is why the "Whys" do NOT end. The child is doing his best to form the existential question. A question beyond existential actually.

And the misguided parent playing the game of appearing to know something terminates the child's openness with these ridiculous answers that have nothing to do with the child's question.

The conditioning - the damaging - the closing up of openness ... has begun. Few survive.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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