The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

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the key master
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by the key master » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:12 pm

Rick wrote:
the key master wrote:... he/she is talking about "observation free from all reaction".
Only a man who has been to the moon can speak effortlessly with another man who has been to the moon about visiting the moon. There are no barriers between them.
This is understanding and true communication.

Reading in a book and co-opting another's retelling about going to the moon is dry, dead knowledge.

A mind perhaps can lead to the threshold of Being, as others have said. But it is only by Grace that one is pushed through the veil.
If I didn't already imply so its nice talking with someone like you.

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Rick
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Rick » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:31 am

You too KM.
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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ashley72
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by ashley72 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:02 am

Rick wrote:So you ask how to go beyond any subject-object relationship, how to come to the absence of the absence. Let us say you are aware of a particular body sensation. You feel your body is warm or cold, or you feel a certain emotional state. The moment you are conscious of a perception, you are automatically outside it, meaning there is no longer any involvement or identification with the perceived.
Involvement or identification is like a fixation. Fear or desire for objects creates the fixation. If an object comes into our perception, and its of neutral value.... our attention sweeps past it. Think of all the benign things we encounter every day that we sweep by without a second consideration?

Realising that our attentive nature is outside of (attends) to all objects is a major breakthrough... for breaking-free of conditioned patterns.

Image

Condition patterns are like stepping stones in the pond. The pond is like our attentive nature, outside of the stepping stones. When we don't directly Realise that we attend to objects such as Fear... we can't break-free.
Rick wrote: There is no longer a subject, an observer, and an object, the state observed. For this to happen there must be unqualified observation, an observation free from all reaction.
Usually when we observe a Feared object, we have a strong reaction of fight or flight. In that moment, if we realise directly our nature is attending to this Fear, we have the opportunity to watch the reaction without making an unconscious leap to the next stepping stone (object). In other words, we don't lose sight of our attentive nature which is always attending to the objective reality. We still make the leaps, but with lesser fixation. Some space starts to open up.

In my own personal experiences, I know the mechanism of Fear quite well now. An imagined Feared object arises, quickly followed by anxious feelings. In my case, I used to try and avoid the feared situation... but usually it catches up with you eventually.... and you're forced to face the Fear anyway. The Fear is faced but usually with considerable limitations & discomfort and so the cycle continues. However, as soon as you realise directly your attentive nature.... the conditioned responses start to loosen their grip.

Being Inwardly attentive to all things is the key. Just using those words is a great reminder of what you true nature is. Your always outside of things, attending to them. On the other hand, its impossible to get outside of attention and perceive the perceiver. However, we can be outwardly attentive... and that is the root of our troubles. When we are outwardly attentive... we jump from stepping stone to stepping stone without realising our nature. :wink:

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Donna
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Donna » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:07 pm

the key master wrote: This keeps mind safe from scrutiny, which is precisely what mind wants.
I am drawn to what is said which could indicate some basic instinct that dwells within us, our physicality (so far, that's where we are at in an evolutionary timescale?)...that basic instinct to survive as a species. We could be on the brink of evolving into something more, or discovering that we are more than physical. Perhaps this is the struggle between our physicalness, maybe a threat to its survival...because something may not be totally familiar or understandable, consciousness, that is arising (an evolving aspect of being human that may carry us into some newer form which survival may require). Sorry....this may be pulling away from original topic...

So...is this thread saying that mind wants to stay safe instinctively from anything that threatens its perceived survival of its physicalness, therefore creates its own environment (a refuge) to do just that?

For example, the mind will create notions that "the world revolves around me," "I must manipulate so-and-so to get my needs met," "I must feel a certain way about myself (and treat others accordingly) to survive in this world". And to feel safe by means of its survival tactics, it must believe it can control this "I" environment in which it has created?

Nice baby photo, by the way... viewing the possibilities of where that baby's gaze comes from. Yet, babies as they get past their basic need of food, shelter, clothing, learn (this is a natural process) something even more about its view of survival via its conditioning, another's constructed mind environment. So we not only have our own mind's constructed refuge, we also have others' that are unavoidably imposed on top or melded with ours.

My view is that the mind has evolved into equating survival with some definition a society has set for being successful. And even if you don't give a shit about a society's definition of success, the mind still wriggles and squirms over the "Who am I? What do I do now? HOW DO I SURVIVE?" The mind then strips its own environment by not accepting anything, rebeling against everything, and that spaciousness and emptiness can be scary as hell (just another environment or different 'refuge'). Yet, many choose to physically 'survive.' When we "die before we die" is this the evolutionary step where the space has been created for Awareness (consciousness) to 'appear'? However, there seems a connection for each of us between what the mind has previously created as a so-called 'refuge' and this conscious step. This, for some, is not a walk through the daisies...
~*~*~*~* I love to live and live to love. *~*~*~*~

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Yutso » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:27 pm

"We think that calming the mind means to get rid of thoughts and turbulent emotions, rather than to connect with the natural spaciousness of awareness itself, which doesn't get any better when there are no thoughts or any worse when there are". Mingur Rinpoche

the key master
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by the key master » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:24 pm

Donna wrote:
the key master wrote: This keeps mind safe from scrutiny, which is precisely what mind wants.
I am drawn to what is said which could indicate some basic instinct that dwells within us, our physicality (so far, that's where we are at in an evolutionary timescale?)...that basic instinct to survive as a species. We could be on the brink of evolving into something more, or discovering that we are more than physical. Perhaps this is the struggle between our physicalness, maybe a threat to its survival...because something may not be totally familiar or understandable, consciousness, that is arising (an evolving aspect of being human that may carry us into some newer form which survival may require). Sorry....this may be pulling away from original topic...

So...is this thread saying that mind wants to stay safe instinctively from anything that threatens its perceived survival of its physicalness, therefore creates its own environment (a refuge) to do just that?
It depends on the degree of unconsciousness in the individual. Some peeps have a lot more to guard than others, a lot more that they intentionally and unconsciously "don't notice", which is what happens when mind stops scrutinizing itself and continues its studies in the art of self deception and projection. For many, that's what spirituality is, how to not notice what's actually going on while pretending they do. Shit, for many, that's what life is about. Awakening doesn't fascinate me nearly as much as mind's ability to spin webs in the name of staying asleep.

In terms of mind creating an environment, or a refuge, as you said, I really think it has a lot more to do with emotional protection than physical survival. When people are worried about "what could happen", its the emotional repercussions of what could happen which is actually being feared, which is actually a projection of pain left behind. As absolutist as I'm sure this might come across, there isn't actually a person that dies, but only the delusion that there is. The biological survival instinct seems to take care of itself, while the psychological survival instinct, the mind identification actually wanting to chase lies, even in the name of truth, is what can be noticed, scrutinized, and healed.
For example, the mind will create notions that "the world revolves around me," "I must manipulate so-and-so to get my needs met," "I must feel a certain way about myself (and treat others accordingly) to survive in this world". And to feel safe by means of its survival tactics, it must believe it can control this "I" environment in which it has created?
That's good stuff. And I think you're right about it all boiling down to control. Mind will do anything it can for it until it realizes it doesn't have it, and never did. :shock:
Nice baby photo, by the way... viewing the possibilities of where that baby's gaze comes from. Yet, babies as they get past their basic need of food, shelter, clothing, learn (this is a natural process) something even more about its view of survival via its conditioning, another's constructed mind environment. So we not only have our own mind's constructed refuge, we also have others' that are unavoidably imposed on top or melded with ours.
Yes, and there's really no one to blame for any of it, which isn't meant as a means to bypass personal responsibility for our actions, it just so happens to be the truth, which is what awakening is all about.
When we "die before we die" is this the evolutionary step where the space has been created for Awareness (consciousness) to 'appear'? However, there seems a connection for each of us between what the mind has previously created as a so-called 'refuge' and this conscious step. This, for some, is not a walk through the daisies...
Yes, it can certainly take a lot of courage to come out of hiding. There is a such thing as freedom, and it is the truth that will take you there. But getting there isn't always a walk in the park, which is why not so many make it.

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ashley72
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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by ashley72 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:28 pm

Yutso wrote:"We think that calming the mind means to get rid of thoughts and turbulent emotions, rather than to connect with the natural spaciousness of awareness itself, which doesn't get any better when there are no thoughts or any worse when there are". Mingur Rinpoche
Nicely, said.

I would add, when we connect with the natural spaciousness of awareness itself... In other words, we actually attend to the attentive nature itself. But because perception can't perceive the perceiver... Or it's impossible for our attendance to get outside itself... It can't be objectified... so the thinking mind comes up empty handed, it's an inviolated level... Meaning the attentive nature can't be conceptualised in anyway.

But in some way we have an inner sense or apperception. Or maybe as others put it, we know ourselves through negation of objects.

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:41 am

The thought-stream is not to be gotten rid of.

There is nothing Here that does not belong Here. Everything that goes on, comes and goes, moves along is the evidence and activity within the action of the LIfe and Light of This LIving Presence--- which is our Only Identity. We are One with the One and Only Unseen and Unpossessed Awareness--- This is That and That Is our Identity.

Right Here and Now You Are Already One with all the running streams of thought and appearances and things that we perceive Here Within Our Single and Only Awareness---

God and It's Awareness is all That Is, and It manifests as a sense of 'me and you' and things and thoughts and stuff and ideas, dreams and creativity and curiosity and trees and mountains and birds that sing and tiny babies that need their mother and whatever else all that This Living Bounty of God's Being is Being---This is It--This Is Here as Here and Now, just as you are---

God is All and All is All, Alone is Only; there is Only One and This is Our Identity experienced as You and Me and thoughts and ideas---All This is Here and Now---Here to Love and Embrace and Be at Peace with Your Self as This Awareness.

You cannot ever escape This. You cannot get awareness or stillness, You ARE IT. Right now, you are It, there is no "out side of' This, This Is It-- It includes a sense of you and me and our thoughts.

Then, low and behold, when You Love Your Self, the thoughts and ideas flow like a beautiful river and you can enjoy the stream without having to jump in the stream and get swept up by the stream--- Once you know it is a stream, you don't get caught up by it ---Metaphorically, You enjoy the Beauty of the Whole Total Mountain Scene, trees and bees, and bumped knees, and sky and wind and wild flowers and meadows and woods and trails --- the 'stream' (of thought) is just one lovely aspect of the Whole Glorious Nature of God's Being.

Just pitch your tent and enjoy your camping trip. :D
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Sighclone » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:00 am

I have no fundamental problem with that perspective, Sandy. Of course, thoughts are part of the landscape of Self. Both Spira and Gary Weber recognize thoughts as the basic activity of the mind; Adya speaks of the mind putting Presence into a trance. The more we get wrapped up in the thought stream, the greater is the temptation to believe that it has some claim to our identity. You clearly mention that we should not be swept away by the big humming engine of the thinking mind...or, as relates to any fundamental deep truths, any conclusions it draws.

Awakening and Self-realization are non-mental. Both of those are complicated by a society full of people believing in their separate egoic selves...and expecting that you do, too.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by runstrails » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:23 pm

Sighclone said:
Awakening and Self-realization are non-mental.
I've not read the complete thread so I apologize if I missed something here. But I'm not so sure that 'non-mental' is an appropriate term.

Self realization is simply the knowledge that you (and everything else) are limitless, eternal awareness. This understanding does happen in the mind/intellect since that's the tool we humans use to understand. As confidence quietly grows in this knowledge, you begin to live your life from the perspective of your true self. Or another way of saying it is that awareness 'wakes up' and 'you' disappear, so to speak.

If you define Self-realization based only on experiences or epiphany's then once that experience ends, you are left wanting another one---hence the whole difficulty with being 'present' all the time. For example, what if you are tired or sick, the 'knowledge' of your true self will be there, but perhaps not the 'experience'. Also, there is no time when you really don't experience you true self, is there :wink:, so there is no point chasing (non-mental) experiences.

So mind, intellect is a fine tool for some of us to acquire and process the knowledge of our true nature. But this knowledge can only happen in a still, calm mind which is open to self inquiry and so yes, it's good not to get carried away by the stream of thinking.

Edited to add: Epiphanies and experiences can be very useful in consolidating the knowledge of your true self--but in the end they are fleeting while knowledge is not.

I hope this helps someone, as this distinction between knowledge-based self-realization and experience-based self-realization was a turning point for me :).

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by the key master » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:43 pm

trailz said,
As confidence quietly grows in this knowledge, you begin to live your life from the perspective of your true self. Or another way of saying it is that awareness 'wakes up' and 'you' disappear, so to speak.
The last bit, which really doesn't have anything to do with whatever perspective is left relatively. Absolute relative perspectives only exist in fairy tales. :mrgreen:
If you define Self-realization based only on experiences or epiphany's then once that experience ends, you are left wanting another one---hence the whole difficulty with being 'present' all the time. For example, what if you are tired or sick, the 'knowledge' of your true self will be there, but perhaps not the 'experience'.
I would say there is no such thing as knowledge about something beyond knowledge altogether. But, there is certainly something to recognizing the limitations of knowledge, or thought, or mind.
Also, there is no time when you really don't experience you true self, is there , so there is no point chasing (non-mental) experiences.
Right, anyone chasing non mental experiences is actually walking around with a saddle looking for a giraffe to ride off into the sunset on. All experiences are formed within mind. Even the idea of a oneness experience is nothing more than an idea. Personal oneness experiences only happen in our head movies, like the idea of being present, or absent.
So mind, intellect is a fine tool for some of us to acquire and process the knowledge of our true nature.
I would say mind is good at creating lies, believing them, and then exposing them. After you do that, there's nothing left to know.
Epiphanies and experiences can be very useful in consolidating the knowledge of your true self
Experiences tend to validate the validity of the one having the experience, which often solidifies delusion more than anything else. Nothing needs to be added to the equation. What's false simply needs to be subtracted.

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by runstrails » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:20 am

Key master wrote:
I would say there is no such thing as knowledge about something beyond knowledge altogether.
I agree and perhaps this is what Andy meant by 'non-mental' in the first place--that the totality of being is beyond the grasp of the human mind--in which case, I concur.

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Sighclone » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:04 am

I guess a better phrase is "trans-mental." "Nonmental" was Peter Fenner's word, and it stopped me cold, back when my understandings were mainly conceptual, not experiential -- and I liked it then, if only for the shock effect. I still use it from time to time because getting out of the mind, beyond the mind, if you will, is utterly crucial to abiding realization. The mind does finally understand it as "something I don't do," and gets more comfortable, often after a period of disorientation and sometimes fear. The effort here is to clarify that thinking is a distant subset of aware presence.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by karmarider » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:12 am

Sighclone wrote:I guess a better phrase is "trans-mental."
Pre-op or post-op?

Hehe.

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Re: The Thought-Stream = Final Refuge of the Separate Self

Post by Sighclone » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:20 am

Lobotomies are forever.
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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