Identity is Fluid

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Sighclone
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Identity is Fluid

Post by Sighclone » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:27 pm

In his fine new book, “The Mystery Experience,” Tim Freke restates his assertion that the experience of awakening is a “both-and” paradox, not an “either-or” paradox. Your identity is both “Tim, father, teacher, tax-payer, etc. (egoic identity...as a person)” and Unity / Brahman / Atman, etc. Yes, the latter discovery is the awakening event, process, shift, etc. But to utterly disallow the separate self, to stumble around in the awe, the “wow” of unity, without full engagement of your personality, family responsibilities, etc. as a “person,” is a form of “spiritual bypassing.” You can do it, of course, as Eckhart did for two years on the park bench. But he was single, few friends, some small income from somewhere, and few responsibilities. Is that your case?

Just because you have had an experience which makes it very clear that your “separate inside self” is far from the whole picture of life and identity, you do not need to ignore development of your egoic personality. Are you a little bit lazy? My guess is that the laziness did not evaporate from your personality just because you are Awakening. My experience (and Adya’s, by the way) is that the awakening experiences allow you to “return” to your “old me” with more toleration, love, respect for both your own foibles and those of others. An experience of Big Love (Tim’s phrase) both changes your perspective on your egoic identity, and creates the first of many portals to unity which are accessible with more frequency. His example is vision – while you can focus on the screen and read it, your peripheral vision is still active. While you work on tasks as “little you,” the Big Picture is still there. That analogy is intuitively resonant with my experience. It also works the other way…when you are in a unity experience, “little you” is not in your immediate attention, but is in the wings. The more experiences of unity you have, the more portals (your breath is one) you will discover which allow you to dissolve/transcend the structure of habits and styles which you have become as “little you.” His book has a lot of techniques for this – one is becoming aware of the sensuality of your experience in the body. Again, this is a technique for experiencing unity consciousness, not the “separate inside self!” (And, yes, that’s another paradox…kid of like outer body awareness becoming inner body awareness in ET’s work.)

He is unhappy with some teachers who argue that thought is a symptom of the separate inside self, and therefore, somehow, limiting…wrong, etc. One comment he makes is that asking the brain/mind to stop thinking is like asking the heart to stop pumping blood. Thinking and cognitive development are vital for success in the material / dualistic / pluralistic / relative world of maya. But awakening to the transmental experience of unity (“Deep Awake”) clearly discourages, stops and probably even reverses the development of the narrow, selfish, limited, self-protecting ego we so often attack in this forum. You can own, acknowledge and flourish as a “little me” that will remain suffused with the larger experience of Being, of Self. And flow between them.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by rachMiel » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:50 pm

Nice. :-)

I'm a one foot on earth, one in heaven kind of guy ... so Freke's and your takes speak to me.

Sometimes I feel that those who advocate for full/radical "enlightenment" are also advocating for a giving up of the joy and miracle of humanness. I want it all!
Last edited by rachMiel on Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by SandyJoy » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:11 pm

Sighclone wrote:My experience (and Adya’s, by the way) is that the awakening experiences allow you to “return” to your “old me” with more toleration, love, respect for both your own foibles and those of others.
Yes, yes, yes! My experience too :D I am delighted someone else is saying this. This is exactly it. We lose nothing. We find the Balance. The Divine Equation. Both. We live between two worlds, which creates a kind of synergy that makes this third self with combination of both higher and Self and ego and then I Am Me---wholly and holy Me.

We see The Light of Life is Both, objective and subjective and includes All that I am. No getting rid of myself, nothing wrong with the ego. The two become one and those two create the third place --- I think this is the real Holy Trinity. It's a third "place" that includes both at once.

When I first realized this was how the Truth Lives, I was shouting for Joy---Now we know this is the Freedom, this is Love, This is truly knowing God' is so very Good. Nothing like it, nothing so wonderful as this!
Sighclone wrote:while you can focus on the screen and read it, your peripheral vision is still active. While you work on tasks as “little you,” the Big Picture is still there
and yes, we become alive again, alive to feel Life again, born again, this the resurrection. And yes, sensual; all senses alive with Life, awake and filled with this lIving Wonder permeating everything. Like a kid again.

Yes, also, more and more portals open to us, because we realize we are the portal itself---and we walk through it ---we find so many new dimensions and yet we also find we are not afraid to live here in the world and do and share all this Joy and Love with our world

I am so happy to see someone saying this, and that you got it, and posted it here--- thank you

"This is the Way, walk ye in It"
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:52 pm

Excellent post Andy. It speaks clearly to the real nature of the human experience. As you know I am in this camp that thought is not as bad as some have suggested. It's got issues when overly identified with - which is all too common, but it's also essential to our evolution as consciousness. Thought is both spontaneous in its arising, and directable through choice and will. The wise/experienced in life recognize this and use that knowledge to their advantage.

WW

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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by HermitLoon » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:16 pm

Yes Andy.....
"We" are the essence and the totality of being - briefly manifesting as the illusion of a hypothetical individual human experience - at once the creator, the witness and the experience.
As such, "survival", "control" and "free will" are moot points.
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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:46 am

HermitLoon wrote:Yes Andy.....
"We" are the essence and the totality of being - briefly manifesting as the illusion of a hypothetical individual human experience - at once the creator, the witness and the experience.
As such, "survival", "control" and "free will" are moot points.
The human experience is as real as any other in its own context. While any expression may ultimately be considered an illusion within Consciousness Being, what is real and constructive in an evolutionary sense, is the very real experience of living within this life forum. Who among us remembers/perceives life beyond this human expression? Very few it would seem. That being the way things are, and a perspective that their Exists a Universal Essence, suggests that there is purpose and structure that transcends our immediate understanding.

So simply to say that that which we do not completely comprehend - survival of being and the nature of free will - is moot, creates a needlessly limiting perspective of being helpless victims to the whims of a Grand Schemer. However, a measure of free will brings a wholly different interactive, and makes for an interesting dynamic toward the evolution/expansion of consciousness. I find it quite freeing and enriching.

WW

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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by SandyJoy » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:16 am

Oh, WW,

you and I were writing the same thing at the same time--- Nice! :D Although I go on and on :lol:

HermitLoon wrote:Yes Andy.....
"We" are the essence and the totality of being - briefly manifesting as the illusion of a hypothetical individual human experience - at once the creator, the witness and the experience.
As such, "survival", "control" and "free will" are moot points.


You might do better to just stop at this statement "We are the essence and totality of Being".

And just toss this part out; "briefly manifesting as the illusion of a hypothetical individual human experience"

I think we are forever, each and all of us, this very special and unique divine spirit made in the image and likeness of God. Don't be so fast to toss your identity into the conceptual dogma of the "illusion" bin.

You may want to look at that a little deeper.

I know one thing, I know that the Truth isn't bound to meet human expectations. It is not logical nor does It fit into what the limited "educated" view would deem possible.

The Truth is Unbound, and Infinite, Total and All---It is being all That Is, right here and now. It includes you. It includes all that you are.

All means All, so that means Reality is Being What It Is Right Now. The Truth is that It includes both. It is the beauty and wonder and love that manifests as our divine instinct for survival.

The Divine Intelligence we are allows for us to enjoy our ability to control things. Yet, at the very same we cannot control It's Presence. It is the Supernal Totality.

God is Love and Love certainly includes free will. Love does not tell us what to do or when to do it. Love is giving us free will. We have choices to make and we can make those choices.

But God is not making choices, God Knows What God Is. And God, The Totality of Being is Already Complete, Choiceless and All.

God is Total, Infinite, Unbound, Illimitable, without sides, or edges, or time, without inside or outside. Yet, It's Being includes each and everyone of us, uniquely being Me and You--- Glorious, Individual Identities. The Marvel of His Love. The Self Knowing of God, I am The Child A Living image of God.

This is the Wonder of Its Divine Mystery. We do not have to segregate free will from destiny, nor call anything illusion. The marvel of the desire for survival is Love.

Yet in the loss of those we love, the heart brake and pain, the very personal Love we feel with another--- that is wherein Love shows us there is no death.

This Life we Are is the Grand Ineffable Light which is The Self-I-Am, made in the perfect Image of God.

As we Live this freedom from the indoctrination of the 'either or' state of conditioned thinking---then The Light dawns and the Truth of this Self-I-Am grows clearer every day --

The point was that the Truth is both subjective and objective. There is no mention of 'illusion".

The realization of "both are valid and true and real" is a balance that combines to create a synergy of the two views . This synergistic happening will provide us with the Knowing that knows how to live in the world with concern and care and intelligence and yet also at the same time perfectly rooted in the firm and assured depth of Eternal Living Isness That is right here and right now.

It does not make sense. But when you find It, it does not have to make sense---It proves Itself as Life Itself. Life is the evidence.
Last edited by SandyJoy on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:06 am

SandyJoy wrote:You might do better to just stop at this statement "We are the essence and totality of Being".

And just toss this part out; "briefly manifesting as the illusion of a hypothetical individual human experience"
I agree. Even an imaginary experience is still an experience, which makes the experience real. A dream may be just a dream but the experience within the dream often generates real emotions. So, it is experience that is the true marker of reality, and not the structure within which the experience took place. The structure will eventually pass away. The experience, it would seem, remains a useful building block of conscious expansion.

WW

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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by Sighclone » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:32 am

How nice to hear so quickly from some of my favorites, thanks all. ET and all our wonderful nondual authors, both ancient and modern are waving a big flag that few see: there is unity, aware presence, and "we" are it. As Scott Kiloby says "just this."

So, because so many are utterly unaware on their level of consciousness, that big flag message is still vital. But jeepers, there are some of us who have seen that, felt that , merged with that for long enough and frequently enough that the flag can be set in the corner...we did get and experience the message...yes it's gigantic, yes, it is life transforming, yes it is the ultimate truth (as much as we, in human form can experience.)

So, what is left. Well, absolutely everything. Nothing is lost. Much of "ordinary life," though, is now informed and transcended by a "larger self." The mind comes to understand that and to stand down before a higher awareness, a deeper presence. In fact, to shrink from our faculties, quirks, strengths, weaknesses, etc. as people doesn't work. I accept and experienced that the impact of a big kensho is shocking...there might be a period of "adjustment." But the breaths keep coming in and the house payments arrive and kids still ...are kids, etc. I think, though, that as we slip back into our "old little me roles," that the suit fits a bit better...we are more steady on our spiritual feet...pretty hard to get knocked around when you not only climbed the mountain, but became the mountain.

Also, there is majesty and delight in every molecule of creation...stay with your unity sense and then look at anything with unlabeled wonder...it jumps with vibrancy, even a busted old carriage bolt. Little bit of love in there, too...

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by smiileyjen101 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:03 am

Eternally, everything old is new again with the mere waking up to it.

This brief topic 'resonates' all over again -

http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... 588#p24588
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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Re: Identity is Fluid

Post by arel » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:34 pm

I think I see what you are saying Andy. The thing is "the true identity" of who I am, or all of us are, is not fluid at all. It might seem so, until one stops and looks to see "who am I really?"
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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