On Thoughts and Free Will

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Webwanderer
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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:22 pm

Rick wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:What is not in the Abraham teachings is the belief in no-self and no free will.

"The next morning I woke up and everything was so peaceful. The peace was there because there was no self. Just a sense of presence or “beingness,” just observing and watching." -Tolle
Interesting contradiction by ET in the bold face parts of the quote. I sense a specific context here. Tolle was speaking of an experience he was having - that of a pristine state of consciousness where he (the 'I' he spoke as) was resting peacefully without a self context. He was just aware of the beauty of being, with no sense of individuality.
"Except a man die and be born again, he can not enter into the Kingdom" -Jesus
I don't get the connection you are trying to make in this quote.
Webwanderer wrote:What is not in the Abraham teachings is the belief in no-self and no free will.
If one has had even a foretaste of the Absolute I do not know one could say this.
Say what? That Abraham does not teach belief in no-self and no free will?

WW

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:00 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Rick wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:What is not in the Abraham teachings is the belief in no-self and no free will.

"The next morning I woke up and everything was so peaceful. The peace was there because there was no self. Just a sense of presence or “beingness,” just observing and watching." -Tolle
Interesting contradiction by ET in the bold face parts of the quote. I sense a specific context here. Tolle was speaking of an experience he was having - that of a pristine state of consciousness where he (the 'I' he spoke as) was resting peacefully without a self context. He was just aware of the beauty of being, with no sense of individuality.
I see a convention of language in the use of the word "I", which by its nature is dual. But I see him pointing to the same thing as, for example, Jesus when he says:

"I am my Father are one" or "When you see me you have seen the Father" or "The words which I am speaking, I am not speaking from myself, but my Father who dwells within me, he does these works"
Webwanderer wrote:
"Except a man die and be born again, he can not enter into the Kingdom" -Jesus
I don't get the connection you are trying to make in this quote.
This points to the no-self non-state which makes for the possibility of the body being the conduit through which Being walks upon the earth.


Webwanderer wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:What is not in the Abraham teachings is the belief in no-self and no free will.
If one has had even a foretaste of the Absolute I do not know one could say this.
Say what? That Abraham does not teach belief in no-self and no free will?

WW
Perhaps you had better expand upon the your statement that Abraham does not teach belief in no-self.
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:13 pm

We seem to be drifting unnecessarily out into the weeds. I am not now, nor have I ever suggested that human identification was a genuine self. To the contrary, I've pointed out repeatedly and consistently that thought identity, is not a true self but simply an imagined one. So lets not argue a point to which neither of us holds.

That does not mean however, that the consciousness that perceives through that identification is not in essence 'self'. It is/we are an extension and a perspective of Source consciousness - the Source of all self-sense experiencing life in/through human form - and within each perspective there is a uniqueness unto its self. That uniqueness is the quality that allows interaction between us.

Self is not the imagined identity born of thought concepts and beliefs, self is that which imagines the identity.
"I am my Father are one" or "When you see me you have seen the Father" or "The words which I am speaking, I am not speaking from myself, but my Father who dwells within me, he does these works"
Why would Jesus need to speak these words? To whom does he speak? If there is no one there, no essential self in his audience, why does he waste his breath? Who, or what, does any awakened teacher speak to, and why?

I am suggesting that there is a viable 'self' there that is the conscious essence of Source, that one perspective of Source is addressing another, of which there are infinite numbers manifesting as humans and who knows what else? One conscious living holographic image/extension of the Whole, of Source, interacting with another. Perspectives of Self made manifest for some very unique experiences. What fun. What a way to expand Consciousness in new and unique ways on its growth to infinity.

Jesus was simply trying to bring into clarity for these others that his essence, and theirs, is of the same Origin. That he was an example of awakened Source Consciousness and they were likewise capable. He was trying to get them to recognize this same Source Essence within their own being. But he had to be talking to the same self essence that was within him for there to be any point to his encouragement. That they didn't already recognize it was simply a testament to their own unique perspective of self.

WW

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by HermitLoon » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:31 pm

Some good advice for HermitLoon:

"On realization, you feel complete, fulfilled, free from the pleasure-pain complex, and yet not always able to explain what happened, why and how. You can put it only in negative terms: "Nothing is wrong with me any longer". It is only by comparison with the past that you know that you are out of it. Otherwise, you are just yourself. Don't try to convey it to others. If you can, it is not the real thing. Be silent and watch it expressing itself in action. (332)" (Nisargadatta)
Peace

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by ashley72 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:47 pm

Rick wrote:That is only one half of the Equation.

Life is also The Still, Unmoving, Unmanifest which Observes Manifestation unfold. As human beings we live the paradox of both the Manifest and the Unmanifest. art of Understanding the Riddle of Life, IMHO, is Seeing both. Balance, as SandyJoy might say, is Key.
Referring to the unmanifested as still & unmoving... comes from a believe that matter is made from discreet particles residing in empty space.

Really? How does energy exchange occur? How does communication occur between discreet particles?

Just because empty space appears to be still & unmoving doesn't mean it is.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Rick » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:35 am

Webwanderer wrote:We seem to be drifting unnecessarily out into the weeds. I am not now, nor have I ever suggested that human identification was a genuine self. To the contrary, I've pointed out repeatedly and consistently that thought identity, is not a true self but simply an imagined one. So lets not argue a point to which neither of us holds.
I know you have said this. I was questioning your characterization of Abraham's not teaching the belief of a separate self. It sounded like a denial of an illusory self. The way you stated it was confusing to me. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Webwanderer wrote:That does not mean however, that the consciousness that perceives through that identification is not in essence 'self'. It is/we are an extension and a perspective of Source consciousness - the Source of all self-sense experiencing life in/through human form - and within each perspective there is a uniqueness unto its self. That uniqueness is the quality that allows interaction between us.
But this uniqueness can either be an unnconscious expression or a Conscious expression. A "person" who believes himself a separate individual is in forgetfulness of Self as Self. The Self knowing that He is only playing the role of a person in the Game of Life is said to be Awakened. Where and how does your position regarding free will come into play?
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:22 am

Rick wrote:I was questioning your characterization of Abraham's not teaching the belief of a separate self.
This is not what I said. I said:
"What is not in the Abraham teachings is the belief in no-self and no free will." While I don't recall Abraham addressing the subjects of no-self and no free will directly, Abe routinely refers to participants as having free will and as being conscious extensions of non-physical being.
But this uniqueness can either be an unconscious expression or a Conscious expression.
This is really irrelevant to the uniqueness that is a perspective of Source. Conscious, or temporarily unconscious, does not change the essence of a Source consciousness perspective. It only affects one's experience while in this human expression - which is not the totality of one's non-physical being. It is merely an extension of a greater reality of beingness for the purpose of conscious evolution and expansion.

WW

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Rick » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:49 am

Webwanderer wrote: I said:
"What is not in the Abraham teachings is the belief in no-self and no free will."


Yes, that is what you said.
Webwanderer wrote:
But this uniqueness can either be an unconscious expression or a Conscious expression.
This is really irrelevant to the uniqueness that is a perspective of Source. Conscious, or temporarily unconscious, does not change the essence of a Source consciousness perspective. It only affects one's experience while in this human expression - which is not the totality of one's non-physical being. It is merely an extension of a greater reality of beingness for the purpose of conscious evolution and expansion.

WW
You didn't answer my question about how free will plays out in conscious evolution and expansion.

Let me give you two examples and tell me, from your perspective, how do you see Consciousness exercising free will.

1. Consciousness is lost and asleep in the role of Adolf Hitler and has decided to wipe out all the Jews and in fact, has already killed a million even as his armies are on a roll toward brutal domination of other peoples. How does free will work in this scenario?

2. Ekhart Tolle has awakened to His True Self and is in the process of facilitating the awakening of millions of others. How might free will apply here?
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:46 am

Rick wrote:Let me give you two examples and tell me, from your perspective, how do you see Consciousness exercising free will.

1. Consciousness is lost and asleep in the role of Adolf Hitler and has decided to wipe out all the Jews and in fact, has already killed a million even as his armies are on a roll toward brutal domination of other peoples. How does free will work in this scenario?
Ya gotta love the Hitler scenarios.

First, I question your premiss that consciousness can be asleep. The consciousness extension that was Adolf Hitler was not asleep so much as it was focused in a conceptual belief structure of hatred - especially for the Jews. It may well be that our good friend Adolf was unconscious of his true nature due to his focus through his emotional issues. There is much in life however, that at any given moment, we are all unconscious of simply because we are focused elsewhere. That does not mean that we are generally unconscious or asleep in the way you suggest. Consciousness is consistently aware. It's just a matter of what consciousness is aware of.

This focus through HItler's particular belief structure was obviously strong enough and rigid enough that it was able to exclude any thoughts that may have allowed him to see things differently. The strength of his beliefs and focus of his attention simply attracted more of the same. It's hard to argue the power of his beliefs to be creative given the result of WWII.

Free will works like this: You've heard the age old question "What is the meaning of life?". Well, it came to me some years ago the likely answer to this question. Life (as a human) doesn't have meaning so much as it has purpose - at least from a Greater Consciousness point of view. From the human perspective however, it's a different matter. From the individualized human perspective meaning in life is applied by the individual - and there in lies free will. What a given event means to one, may be vastly different to another experiencing the same event.

While it may seem impossible to control the events in one's life one can always choose what an experience means to them. In other words we can choose how we perceive what happens in our life. We can apply whatever meaning we want to our experience, and there by influence the experience by effecting our feelings about it. Even historically, where we had an automatic, conditioned response, we can review the experience and change our perspective of it simply by changing our characterization and beliefs about it. We are free to do so at any time. That is after all the nature of forgiveness, and letting go, and accepting, and making peace yada, yada.

Now, it may be that the judgment holding a perception is strong and the changing of perspective is not easy, but if we really want to see an experience other than through the immediate or established response we can chip away at it until it begins to feel different within our consciousness. With a little practice at relieving the tension and pressure of unpleasant recurring memories, such review time can become shortened to the point of becoming automatic in a response of understanding choice rather than historical conditioning.
2. Ekhart Tolle has awakened to His True Self and is in the process of facilitating the awakening of millions of others. How might free will apply here?
Same way. We always, once we recognize the conditioned response, have the option to perceive our experience differently, in a way of our choosing. The consistent choices we make create new conditioning that makes the responses we prefer more automatic. But, as it is an evolutionary existence, conscious refinement likely goes on indefinitely as consciousness expands and clarity sharpens.

WW

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Rick » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:11 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
This focus through HItler's particular belief structure was obviously strong enough and rigid enough that it was able to exclude any thoughts that may have allowed him to see things differently. The strength of his beliefs and focus of his attention simply attracted more of the same. It's hard to argue the power of his beliefs to be creative given the result of WWII.

Free will works like this: You've heard the age old question "What is the meaning of life?". Well, it came to me some years ago the likely answer to this question. Life (as a human) doesn't have meaning so much as it has purpose - at least from a Greater Consciousness point of view. From the human perspective however, it's a different matter. From the individualized human perspective meaning in life is applied by the individual - and there in lies free will. What a given event means to one, may be vastly different to another experiencing the same event.

While it may seem impossible to control the events in one's life one can always choose what an experience means to them. In other words we can choose how we perceive what happens in our life. We can apply whatever meaning we want to our experience, and there by influence the experience by effecting our feelings about it. Even historically, where we had an automatic, conditioned response, we can review the experience and change our perspective of it simply by changing our characterization and beliefs about it. We are free to do so at any time. That is after all the nature of forgiveness, and letting go, and accepting, and making peace yada, yada.

Now, it may be that the judgment holding a perception is strong and the changing of perspective is not easy, but if we really want to see an experience other than through the immediate or established response we can chip away at it until it begins to feel different within our consciousness. With a little practice at relieving the tension and pressure of unpleasant recurring memories, such review time can become shortened to the point of becoming automatic in a response of understanding choice rather than historical conditioning.
2. Ekhart Tolle has awakened to His True Self and is in the process of facilitating the awakening of millions of others. How might free will apply here?
Same way. We always, once we recognize the conditioned response, have the option to perceive our experience differently, in a way of our choosing. The consistent choices we make create new conditioning that makes the responses we prefer more automatic. But, as it is an evolutionary existence, conscious refinement likely goes on indefinitely as consciousness expands and clarity sharpens.

WW
I am starting to see where you are coming from. It is a foreign concept to me but I want to understand it clearly. Your above post helped toward that end. But let me ask you something at this point...where is the distinguishing point between the false, illusory personality that you agreed is such and True Identity? Is it dependent upon the thoughts/thinking you align yourself with...or something else?
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by SandyJoy » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:26 pm

There is no distinguishing point, who we are is very pure and real and who we are not is just more like fog over us.

It's more like you come back to yourself, you return to who you are. But, who you are is and has always been with you, buried deep, perhaps, but always with you. It is you, just you the way you are.

More like being washed over, or something purifies your heart and mind. Its more like the old Biblical expression of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. You are washed clean. You are drenched. After the drenching, You are the same but better, or somehow you are new, you are different but more real, more real and you know it.

Metaphorically, its as if you can breath and run and move. Almost like being an old man and then getting your youth back and running out of the nursing home and riding your bike again. Its like that. Your spirit is revitalized. You are full of Life again.

You still have your same personality, but you just sort of blossomed into the fullness that you did not know was there--- and you feel your heart shine and you feel Love and the world looks beautiful, full of color and light and love everywhere. you are in a new dimension, but still here, still right where you always were, but its all so sweet and beautiful and safe, so safe now---Now everything is alright, you are Home.

But now you are new, without the burdens of the old man. Now its really you. And the wonderful thing is that you know its you. You feel so alive again, and say This is who I am, I know who I am, I know me. Almost like you remember being who you are, its the one you were when you were a little kid, funny, interested, curious, innocent. You fall in Love with this one you have re-discovered, or who has come back to you. Like a long lost friend returns to you, holds you, is with you.

You are the same one, but now you know ‘something truly blessed’ happen, You know and you are filled with gratitude and gratefulness and you just feel thankful all the time.

It is kind of like someone took a very heavy coat off of you, something that covered you up has been take off--- You are free, just let out of prison and you know it. The coat of armor, you no longer are in battle with Life, you are in Love with It all--- and you left the armor somewhere along the road and you don't need it.

You are not afraid to be standing naked and vulnerable and raw and Something takes care of you now, Something holds our hand now and the innocence is held safely with God's Love for you.

Oh, I know none of this sounds "non-dual" but that is because the Truth is not 'non-dual" It is freedom, just pure joyful freedom

All the old biblical phrases come to mind; It is as if you repent, you turn around, you are bent down, humbled, totally humbled, broken and Here in the Light of Love you are drenched in the purifying Love and washed over with pure forgiveness given--- and you rise up, born again with pure joy for this forgiveness that washes over us.

It's like you are you, but you opened your eyes, once you were blind, now you can see again.

It is Grace, just pure divine Grace that comes to you and takes you, just takes you and does not leave you, it is yours forever. It is as you have been immersed in holy waters, or drenched by the waters so pure that all the dirt and grime just washes away.

Did you ever hear that if you sail a salt water-sea vessel into the a clear-water lake the barnacles will fall off all by themselves? I heard that once and I always tried to keep my little boat (me) in the pure water of the Truth, and one day I felt all the barnacle fall off.

You are like a tree that begins to flower, you begin to blossom and grow and then you eventually give the fruit.

Now, I am going to dare myself to hit submit :D

There is a little of my heart here for you, I just felt moved to share it, so here it is.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by arel » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:51 pm

Thank you.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Rick » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:58 pm

SandyJoy wrote:

Oh, I know none of this sounds "non-dual" but that is because the Truth is not 'non-dual" It is freedom, just pure joyful freedom
Below are a few more paragraphs from the same book by Leo Hartong that I used to start this thread.

See if you see any similarities to what you so beautifully posted and this text.


"Non-duality is a general term that covers several – mostly
eastern – schools of thought, which point to the single source
before and beyond all temporal experiences and apparent
diversity. While reading texts from non-dual systems such
as Zen, Advaita, Taoism, or Dzogchen, you will find the
affirmation that Self-realization has no promise other than
to release you from your belief in a separate self or ego.
That’s it. The dropping away of an illusion simply revealing
this as it is, often summed up in the phrase ‘Before
enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment,
chop wood and carry water.’

Realizing this is far from the bleak reality the mind imagines
it to be. True, this is of no use to the ego, since it is
about freedom from the ego, not freedom for the ego. The
final understanding is not the result of seeking, but brings
freedom from seeking. It is not about fulfilling expectations,
but about being free of them. There are no future
rewards in store. This very clarity turns out to be its own
reward.

Nothing changes, but everything is released from its conceptual
mold, as well as from the person who tried to fit life
into the mold. Life’s freshness is recognized; its presence is
acknowledged; its oneness is seen – but by no one. There
simply is recognition, acknowledgment, and seeing.

All this text will do is remind you of your true identity.
It is not about self-improvement or methods. It contains
no seven-step-systems to help you become more relaxed,
more loving, or more fulfilled. If that is what you’re looking
for, there are plenty of other books and people that
will cater to your needs.

If you want the truth, you have to look beyond the concepts
of ego and self- improvement, and beyond the states
of mind you would like to acquire. This book will explore
– and attempt to puncture – the belief that you are a separate
entity. It wants to point at the sourceless Source from
which all arises, and it asks you to remember that you are
this Source. Once this is recognized and it is clear what
you truly are, you’ll see that everything is exactly as it
should be. It will not all fall magically into place. It already
is and always has been in place.

This is not about a gradual progression to a future goal,
but about a radical awakening to what is. No conditions
have to be fulfilled for this to become clear. Self-realization
can happen at any time for anyone. There can be
quirky, irreverent, irritable characters who are certain about
what they truly are and there can be relaxed,
friendly, happy people who never even thought about socalled
enlightenment. Calmness, friendliness, and happiness
may or may not be or become part of your daily experience
as a consequence of awakening, but at the same
time it will become evident that this clarity is not about
being in a good mood all the time. You don’t need to do
anything to ‘become ready’ for it. It will happen by itself
and reveal that Awakeness is – and always has been – fully
present. It will shine when it shines, and it will shift the
attention from the content of Awareness to Pure Awareness
itself. This Pure Awareness is what you truly are. When
you think you’re not it, this thought is part of the temporal
content of Awareness and has no bearing on Awareness
itself. Just let yourself be. Give yourself permission to
be up, down, pissed, or delirious. Observe the process
and don’t get caught in the content. Know yourself as the
limitless field of Pure Awareness in which the drama of
life merely arises."
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by SandyJoy » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:25 pm

Thank you Rick,

I always knew I loved Leo, and that would always love Leo---

but when I read that first selection from Leo, it didn't seem to sit quite right with me.

Now this I see Is It! Here I see the Light!

Thank you so much, it's beautiful and very inspired and well written.

Thanks Leo! Nice job!

:D
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:41 pm

Rick wrote:
I am starting to see where you are coming from. It is a foreign concept to me but I want to understand it clearly. Your above post helped toward that end. But let me ask you something at this point...where is the distinguishing point between the false, illusory personality that you agreed is such and True Identity? Is it dependent upon the thoughts/thinking you align yourself with...or something else?
I really enjoyed SandyJoy's post. So very appropriate to perceiving the feeling of the awakening experience. Thanks Sandy, for the many beautiful metaphors. Warning! I may steal some of them for future reference. :D

Rick, if there is a point of distinction (and Sandy likely has it right), it would be at the point one realizes, in wordless thoughtless awareness, the adopted nature of the illusory thought created perspective. This is so because a clear distinction can only be seen/felt from the perspective of one's True Nature. Analysis is useful only so far. At some point - unique to each of us - is the experience of a shift in perception. I could come in a flash, but more likely like the dawn. The path to that realization is through a genuine desire for truth and clarity, and a willingness to sacrifice one's current point of view as it feels warranted.

WW

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