On Thoughts and Free Will

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SandyJoy
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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by SandyJoy » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:39 pm

Yes, WW, I have often wanted to mention this too. It is not that we get rid of our beliefs, it is that we find the correct beliefs and then live them.

The "non-dual" beliefs seem to preach that believing is a hindrance to seeing the Truth. But, I have learned otherwise.

I have learned that we are very capable of seeing the Truth and then living it and believing It.

Anyone who has accepted the mistaken belief that his mind cannot find or know the Truth will see and be what he believes.

But, God is Good and the Glimmers of Truth brake through and Something Marvelous comes and shows us we are on our way to 'learning" what the true, honest, correct and real beliefs are --- we are capable of seeing the Truth and we are to Live It.

When we find the Truth we still have beliefs and we Live and Be those beliefs that are based on Truth--- and we see what we be-live.

"What you have believed will be done for you!" Jesus knew that Reality and identity is all about belief. Belief is 'what we are".

When you accept first what your Heart tells you, then you can know for yourself True Divine Inheritance of Your Identity.
It will prove itself True through the Joy and Freedom and Love that shows up upon this Self-disccovery---you will feel it in the very soul and heart of everything you do and be.

It proves Itself by the very living of It. You do not get rid of your beliefs---you get in line with the correct beliefs.

Believe and Be-Live.
Last edited by SandyJoy on Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Webwanderer
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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:42 pm

HermitLoon wrote:"without judgement" meant no judgement of whether "true" or "false", "good" or "bad", etc.
Without judgment is one thing. Without discernment is another matter. Life is not devoid of feelings and sensitivity to experience. When emotions come into play (and they regularly do), one has the opportunity to consider the message of those emotions. What are they telling us about the nature of our experience?
"Why after all, would one doubt what they know to be true?"
Perhaps if a mind realized that it actually does not know what "truth" is?
But that is after all the point - being open to the possibility that what we believe is true may only be relatively so. And that even includes believing we live without judgment of true or false, right and wrong.

My sense is that everyone, without exception, lives through beliefs; and by recognizing this beliefs become malleable and adaptive through our consideration. We also free ourselves through this recognition to evolve toward ever greater clarity and understanding. Our experiences are reflections of our beliefs and afford us the opportunity to review them. Emotions are prime indicators that this is true. So unless one is without emotions then one does live through beliefs - recognizable or not.

WW

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Rick
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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Rick » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:25 am

Webwanderer wrote:
My sense is that everyone, without exception, lives through beliefs; and by recognizing this beliefs become malleable and adaptive through our consideration. We also free ourselves through this recognition to evolve toward ever greater clarity and understanding. Our experiences are reflections of our beliefs and afford us the opportunity to review them. Emotions are prime indicators that this is true. So unless one is without emotions then one does live through beliefs - recognizable or not.

WW


Wow, that sounds amazingly like it could have been lifted from the video I just listened to on YouTube called "Abraham-Hicks: Teachings of Abraham in a Nutshell"

Interesting concepts but I don't see a connection to non-duality in it.

I agree that belief is important, but I also think it important how one comes upon a belief.

Beliefs that are adopted/co-opted from another or a book, of example, tend to feed the ego and block Awakening, whereas, belief in the Truth of a thing coming from Inner Wordless Revelation awakens. For example "Ah-ha, when I pressure my son to go on a rollercoaster when he is afraid to begin with I create a phobia in him"

So the question arises. How do we know the difference between the two? Can it be described?
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Natalie » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:08 pm

Thanks Rick for sharing your son's experience with his fear of rollercoasters. I have a similar situation with my 10 y old. Will try your approach.

Natalie

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:23 pm

Rick wrote:Wow, that sounds amazingly like it could have been lifted from the video I just listened to on YouTube called "Abraham-Hicks: Teachings of Abraham in a Nutshell"
I freely acknowledge that I study the teachings of Abraham, although I have not listened to this particular offering. I have also studied the teachings of Tolle, which is how I came to this forum several years ago. And while I am admitting to studying teachings, I make full disclosure that I study NDE's and have a history of study in many, many other teachings.

I make it a point however, to avoid quoting teacher's direct statements. I have done so on occasion, but I prefer to speak from my own understanding of the insight my studies have brought. It's far easier than carrying all those books around and sorting through them for points to make. :wink:

And do we not all explore teachings that attract us and inspire us to greater understanding? This forum is filled with discussions inspired by various teachers far and wide. So let us not shoot the messenger, and glean what we can from the messages regardless of source.
Interesting concepts but I don't see a connection to non-duality in it.
While Abraham does not speak to non-duality by that term, the consistant reference to life being a 'stream of consciousness' from one Source is clear. What is not in the Abraham teachings is the belief in no-self and no free will. Abe makes a very good case that human life is an extension of no-physical consciousness and that the greater portion of self remains non-physical, even the human extension is generally unaware of its greater nature. NDE reports consistently support this teaching.
I agree that belief is important, but I also think it important how one comes upon a belief.
I don't disagree with this. Most of us have had to work through those beliefs that were conditioned into our perspective somewhat unconsciously through childhood, social environment and habits. But when we begin to question our life view our beliefs begin to take on a structure born of curiosity and insight. We step onto a conscious path toward greater understanding and into a world rich with insightful possibilities.

The process of restructuring beliefs can last a lifetime, and it's likely in our best interest that it does so. To assume we have total understanding and clarity on the nature of life is probably just a point of settling in to a broader perspective. In time new curiosities and explorations arise giving birth to new insights and a new restructuring of beliefs begins.
Beliefs that are adopted/co-opted from another or a book, of example, tend to feed the ego and block Awakening, whereas, belief in the Truth of a thing coming from Inner Wordless Revelation awakens.
No doubt there is some truth to your concerns. But it's not the books that are the blockages, it's the authority one places in the book that is problematic. The Bible, Koran and Scriptures from around the world are good examples of 'authority' placed in books. Followers point to words they consider authoritative and claim proof of a belief. Not in my world view. It should be clear to anyone seeking clarity and greater understanding that the only true authority comes from direct insight, the 'Inner Wordless Revelation'.

Again, there is no need to shoot the messengers. Primary in Abraham's teachings, and all teachers of merit, point to inner alignment as the only real Source for clarity and expansion. Even the world's scriptures can offer pointers toward direct insight.
So the question arises. How do we know the difference between the two? Can it be described?
Well it can be described, but that is merely another pointer. How its known is what matters. The answer is how a perspective feels, especially when in a mentally quiet and open conscious state. My experience is that clarity on feelings takes a bit of familiarity through experience however. Existing conditioning creates emotional responses that can be misleading at first. The more one 'feels' into a state of alignment however, the more familiar and reliable it becomes. Insight can take on momentum as expansion of understanding unfolds.

In any case I appreciate the honest discussion. There is a pleasant difference in the feel of a debate of positions and a genuine exploration.

WW

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by SandyJoy » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:39 pm

Rick wrote:nteresting concepts but I don't see a connection to non-duality in it.
For me, when I saw in fact that I am not living in life, but that Life is Me then I can see how "what I am is what I see" . I understand how what is 'out there' is a reflection of My Self inside; What I see is what is be, I am the world I walk through; there is only One, inside and outside are the same Awareness.

I have a theory (and my theory was confirmed by someone I trust) that the extreme weather changes we are seeing are the reflection of unsettled and 'whipped up' atmosphere, emotions stirring around inside so many people.

You know how you walk into a certain place and you say "wow, what a lovely atmosphere" or "the atmosphere there really made me feel uncomfortable, I just had to leave"---- Well, 'atmosphere' is real and it is like a mood, or ambience, or energy and we can feel it. The weather is a tangible manifestation of the inner atmosphere we carry around, our state of being.

Yes, this has all to do with "non-duality". If we watch the weather it is like watching the emotional state of the human 'mistaken belief' in separation from God and God's Divine Awareness. It has all to do with 'mistaken beliefs' being manifest out there as chaos and turmoil.

Because God and Its Infinite Mind functioning Here as This Awareness is really All That Is, the world is holographic reflection of Divine Light.

But, our mistaken belief that we are the possessors of mind, the owners of life, and that we live outside of God's All, this mistaken vision leads to all kinds of 'polluted' emotions; fear, anger, hate et al-- that can be seen as polluted environment, rivers, dying trees, extreme heat, huge floods, long droughts et al.

This is why in the East and in Taosim it is said "be the peace you want to see". and in the West Jesus said 'be it done to you as you believe" They all knew there was a connection, as all is One, all is within Us, then the inside and outside the same, and that any change in the world must begin with change within each of us an individual.

Individually we become what we want to see. When we find out who we really are, we will see the tangible evidence of our own Heart everywhere, for everyone, for the animals and for the children and for the rivers and sky, and freedom will prevail as the Heart expands with Love. We will see the Truth living with and as each other, no more tyrants or controlling governments, but genuine freedom of the individual to be fully Awake and Living as the Light--- we will see God's Love is manifest in the world.

As you do it, others will ask you about your Joy or your Peace or how you do it, then the Word will spread and others will understand and the Truth will grow apace.

Not through mandates from politics, religions, authoritarian ideologies that think that 'they can change the world' by implementing certain laws and by controlling the tangible situation around them.

Governments, Ideologies and religions that try to control people and the environment don't work.

Economy is a state of mind; if we feel fear then there is less, there is lack, there is loss.

If we feel God's bounty and abundance flowing within us, then we see it in our world.

Government control only creates more fear and the 'lack' or 'theft' state of mind just florishes in the world. Ideologies that want to spread the wealth, do not begin with the Truth, but begin with limitation.

We must begin with Truth, with seeing that Wealth is as state of Mind and is about the Beauty and Wonder of Spirit and Truth and God's Grace as our very Life More Abundant. The way to Live in abundance is not about tangible matter, but will be seen as manifest as tangible things.

Human governments and religions that use manipulation of people and things through fear and deprivation only gives rise to more tumult and of course this won't work as it just produces more disturbance within the hearts of man and so we see more wars, growing destruction of nature, poisoned animal and water witnessed as the human emotions turn to hate and upheaval, confusion and fear and anger. It is all about the individual heart, here within Me and You.

With the genuine and transforming realization that we are the Living Light of Awareness and It is God's Awareness That I Am, we can rest and feel the peace and joy and beauty of this Living Truth and then we see this deep abiding Peace manifested in our own life.

We have to begin here, as I, alone, just me and my own heart and then put it practice, which means Live It, Be It, Be What I Really Am and stop acting like i am not God's Awareness, stop acting as if I can have or do have a mind of my own---when you do, when you Live the Truth, the Peace, the Light in your Heart, you will see It Proven in so many ways in your life.

The only Mind is Divine Mind and when I am free from fear and filled with the Knowing of My Very Own Isness as Eternal Light and Intelligence then Love is the basis of all that I do and be. We see what we be.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by SandyJoy » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:43 pm

I walked over to the Farmers Market after I posted that piece.

On my way, I was thinking that I really must add this; Even though our 'mistaken beliefs' create the things we see, we must also know, learn, understand that when 'bad things' happen they are really our teachers. No one of guilty of 'wrong thinking'. God is Love and Marvel of Truth is that We can find our way Home, back to Balance and Stability and Love by way of the 'world view teaching' ---Its all Good, just the way It is---

This Life we are living is like a school, a very good school; Life Itself, here in this time-space appearance experience is the Divine Discipline Itself---We listen and we are to learn "What Is" by way of the contradistinction of "what is not and never was".

The chaos and turmoil is eventually found to be the very gift that leads us Home, back to God and knowing God's Totality and That All is The Living Mind of The Divine Light.

The Beauty of it all, is that whatever seemed to be 'bad' never really happened, never really was 'real'. In the Light of Truth there is no death, no harm to anyone or anything---Nothing 'bad' is possible, even though it may seem to be. Blessed Joy, this is the Freedom; God is Love and we are the knowing and seeing and awakening to the Light of Truth---It is Wonderful.

Oh, how can I say it, It is All So Perfect---and Trusting In This Perfection no matter what the passing images, the scene, the tangible world appears to be; The Truth is that Perfection Is All---Living It, It will show us It Is So.

Perfect! I just saw this on Natalie's post: "Life will give you whatever experience is most helpful for the evolution of your consciousness. How do you know this is the experience you need? Because this is the experience you are having at the moment."
— Eckhart Tolle
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by randomguy » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:04 pm

It seems to me that life and experience occur regardless of belief and belief is just an experience of holding dear a thought that can only be a description or generalization of what is, as no thought appears correct in and of itself.
Do the yellow-rose petals
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at the rapid's roar?
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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by SandyJoy » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:10 pm

Random Guy,

"No thought" is not possible---Life is 'made of thought" it is all Mind and Its thoughts seen as what we perceive to be tangible things. Mind, or Consciousness and Its Ideas. The ideas are seen as tangible things, but they are really appearances of ideas, or light informed, or information, intelligence 'seen' as if "out there" but really ideas in the Mind of The Ineffable All.

Mind, Divine Totality functions as Awareness and Awareness must have its thoughts and ideas in order to be aware. Mind without Awareness is not really Mind. Therefore Mind must be Thinking in order to be a Functioning Mind. God is Mind and Mind is Totality.


P.S.

WW, I love your response to Rick! :D

Truly Excellent and well said. Not easy to explain and you really did a good job with it.

Thank you so much for that clear and Light filled expression, SandyJoy
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:21 pm

randomguy wrote:It seems to me that life and experience occur regardless of belief and belief is just an experience of holding dear a thought that can only be a description or generalization of what is, as no thought appears correct in and of itself.
Life is conscious energy unfolding through manifestation. The nature of that manifestation is the only question. Is it random? Is it intentional? Is it malleable? How would one know? Is knowing even possible? What could be the mechanism for formation?

A healthy curiosity opens many doors of understanding.

WW

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by randomguy » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:46 pm

"No thought" is not possible---Life is 'made of thought" it is all Mind and Its thoughts seen as what we perceive to be tangible things.
What is perceiving the tangible?
You put "no thought" in quotes yet I don't mention or advocate a pursuit of or a value in the concept of no thought.
"Life is made of thought" - this seems not true to my experience, the subjective interpretation of life, the personal narrative however, very much seems to be.
A healthy curiosity opens many doors of understanding
To my experience, curiosity about what you are and what this existence to a degree of value that is placed above all else is core to awakening. What I found is that you don't just wake up from the negative thoughts, but from all of them.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by SandyJoy » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:12 pm

randomguy wrote:What is perceiving the tangible?
You put "no thought" in quotes yet I don't mention or advocate a pursuit of or a value in the concept of no thought.
"Life is made of thought" -
I am saying that what we call matter is really thought or idea or Light (which is information) appearing to us as solid when in fact things are nothing but light in-formed. An idea is appearing as a solid world, an objective tangible world "out there" but really it is all Mind and Its ideas, qualities and attributes appearing as things, stuff, material form. Nothing is "out there" it is all Here and Now within the Mind of God and God's Self Knowing Awareness as This Identity I Am.

God which Is Divine Mind is The Single, Alone, Only One Here perceiving and It is the perceived. Life is God's Divine Mind witnessed as a tangible-time-space experience. Matter is really made of or the vision or images or reflections, mirror image of God's Mind.

We might say that we are the Awareness of God witnessing Itself as in and by thought.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him.

Gospel of Thomas: "If they say to You, 'Where did You come from ?', say to them : 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being of itself, established itself and revealed itself in their image.

Or you might say that Light is All There is and when the quantum physicist examines Light he finds out that Light is Information. What is information? It is ideas and thoughts. God said let there be Light (let there be ideas made into something that looks like a solid thing)

We, you and I, are not the form, not appearing---Our Identity is Awareness perceiving Itself as things and forms and bodies and stuff and time and space and universe entire.

Infinite, God is without beginning and without end--- It is all Infinite Mind and Its Manifestations.

There is more, but this is the basic idea of what I mean by tangible things being, in reality, a thought.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by ashley72 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:26 am

Webwanderer wrote:Life is conscious energy unfolding through manifestation. The nature of that manifestation is the only question. Is it random? Is it intentional? Is it malleable? How would one know? Is knowing even possible? What could be the mechanism for formation?

A healthy curiosity opens many doors of understanding.

WW
The whole universe is made up of just electrons. Which are standing spherical wave-centres. The amplitude of the spherical oscillator (electron) is how matter manifests in all its different forms. The different combinations of these wave centres create the different atomic elements, Hydrogen, Helium, Oxygen etc. Atoms are determined by their different electron configuration.

Image

This an illustration of an Oxygen atom with its 8 Spherical standing Wave Centres oscillating in a fixed sequence.

No its not random... it is intentional
How would one know?
By closely examining all the empirical evidence.... De Broglie's theories of matter waves were confirmed in 1927, when Bell Labs scientists Lester Germer and Clinton Davisson fired slow-moving electrons at a crystalline nickel target. The resulting diffraction pattern demonstrated the wave-like characteristics of the electrons.

Is knowing even possible?
I don't see why humankind can't one day unravel the mysteries. The day mainstream science discards the out-dated point-particle theory and adopts the wave structure of matter theory... progress will occur quite rapidly towards a theory of everything.
What could be the mechanism for formation?
The mechanism for formation is to adopt a wave structure of matter.... and start gathering strong empirical evidence supporting the new wave structure model.

This video below describes the state of particle physics beautifully. At 6:06 is the key point in relation to my post above.... Louis De Broglie believed the waves were real! But all the other scientist of the time couldn't give up the point-particle theory. This was a defining moment in Quantum Physics.... a lost opportunity which has set us back a long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIGI-eXK0tg

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:10 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
So the question arises. How do we know the difference between the two? Can it be described?
Well it can be described, but that is merely another pointer. How its known is what matters. The answer is how a perspective feels, especially when in a mentally quiet and open conscious state. My experience is that clarity on feelings takes a bit of familiarity through experience however. Existing conditioning creates emotional responses that can be misleading at first. The more one 'feels' into a state of alignment however, the more familiar and reliable it becomes. Insight can take on momentum as expansion of understanding unfolds.
Hmmm. Knowing by feelings? I certainly do not discount intuition...a kind of knowing without proof or evidence to back up that knowing up. It is a blessed tool for sure. The Miracle of Awareness

But there is also knowing by seeing...in the Light of Reality. Awareness is not unlike a flashlight in that it shines and illuminates. When one is still and quietly abiding in the the "feeling" of Ones Presence, in the I AM only experienced when Consciousness is outside the mind and egoic thought stream, the Light shines upon things in an informative way.

For example, yesterday morning I am at an outdoor tent estate auction. The auctioneer from the start had an issue with his wireless microphone. The speaker was outside the tent on one side, but it was more muffled static than clear voice most of the time. In the course of the auction his helpers, and several in the audience with their suggestions, tried to fix the issue in various ways. Fresh batteries, moving the wireless speaker father or closer, adjusting volume controls, etc. Nothing seemed to work and everyone did the best they could in ignoring the annoying humming, buzzing, and the auctioneer's voice alternating with clarity and incomprehensity (is that a word?)

Anyway, I stood quietly observing the scene while waiting for the one antique oil lamp that I was interested in to come up for bid. I was quietly looking for any clues that might offer explanation for the problem. There wasn't any observable pattern that I could detect until at a certain point the auctioneer lifted one leg up on a piece of furniture while in the midst of taking some intense bidding. The sound in the speaker disappeared completely, but so did, I noticed, the wireless transmittor hooked to the auctioneers belt. It disappeared into the folds of his body and clothing, and so did the sound, more completely than anytime yet. Ah-ha!!! Now I could SEE WORDLESSLY what they problem was. One of the helpers ran outside and for the umpteenth time made the motions to try and adjust the wireless speaker. I went over to him and said "this wireless speaker is to the right of the auctioneer. The transmitter on his belt is on his left. His body is blocking the wireless signal". The helper immediately went to the auctioneer and had him change the position of the box on his belt and bingo!! It started to work flawlessly. The crowd roared and clapped its pleasure.
SandyJoy wrote:The "non-dual" beliefs seem to preach that believing is a hindrance to seeing the Truth.
That's not quite right SandyJoy. Non-duality warns against believing anything you have not directly experienced. A head full of memorized or conditioned beliefs and concepts tend to anchor the Consciousness inside the mind rather than outside it. Mind has its place but it just doesn't make a very good Guide.
Webwanderer wrote:What is not in the Abraham teachings is the belief in no-self and no free will.
If one has had even a foretaste of the Absolute I do not know one could say this.

"Except a man die and be born again, he can not enter into the Kingdom" -Jesus

"The next morning I woke up and everything was so peaceful. The peace was there because there was no self. Just a sense of presence or “beingness,” just observing and watching." -Tolle
SandyJoy wrote:"No thought" is not possible---Life is 'made of thought" it is all Mind and Its thoughts seen as what we perceive to be tangible things. Mind, or Consciousness and Its Ideas. The ideas are seen as tangible things, but they are really appearances of ideas, or light informed, or information, intelligence 'seen' as if "out there" but really ideas in the Mind of The Ineffable All.

Mind, Divine Totality functions as Awareness and Awareness must have its thoughts and ideas in order to be aware. Mind without Awareness is not really Mind. Therefore Mind must be Thinking in order to be a Functioning Mind. God is Mind and Mind is Totality.
SandyJoy, Here are a few William Samuel quotes: You can see that he is speaking of the Mind of God, Awareness, which is mostly Wordless in origin, though often makes use of thought/words in It's expression, as totally different from the mind of the little egoic man. I think this is what Ralph was pointing to. You do make this distinction too, do you not?

"...meditative exercises, what they do is they end thinking, our thinking as a human being. They slow or they stop our thinking as a mortal, the subdued thinking as an egotistical self-centred misidentification" and "Please understand, we don't stop thinking, we simply stop thinking as that miserable, limited speck in space to allow the thoughts of deity to be heard"
Webwanderer wrote:
Life is conscious energy unfolding through manifestation.
That is only one half of the Equation.

Life is also The Still, Unmoving, Unmanifest which Observes Manifestation unfold. As human beings we live the paradox of both the Manifest and the Unmanifest. art of Understanding the Riddle of Life, IMHO, is Seeing both. Balance, as SandyJoy might say, is Key.
randomguy wrote:What I found is that you don't just wake up from the negative thoughts, but from all of them.
If you mean wake up from IDENTIFICATION with them all then I say "Bingo"!!!!

As we all know thought has it place as a servant of Consciuosness. But when thoughts stand unholy in the place of the Holy, that is hell on earth.

And by the way. I have long contended that it is far easier to dis-identify with negative thoughts. It's the apparent "good" ones that pose the bigger problem.
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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Re: On Thoughts and Free Will

Post by Blenderhead » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:28 pm

randomguy wrote:It seems to me that life and experience occur regardless of belief and belief is just an experience of holding dear a thought that can only be a description or generalization of what is, as no thought appears correct in and of itself.
Well said :)

Live in the state of "not knowing" but with a heart that knows.

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