Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chance?

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EternalPrize
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Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chance?

Post by EternalPrize » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:07 pm

Blind chance being the more materialist-type philosophy that the universe just unfolds the way it unfolds with no deeper rhyme or reason. I moved out of my last apt July 5th, and in the past month, one of the guys who lived next door killed 12 people, and then the apt building burned down last night and killed the people that lived above me. Luckily my old roommates were able to jump out of the window. But in any case, I can't help but wonder if this happened for a reason. Or if not a reason, if it somehow was called into being in my world... or something.

I don't know. It just seems crazy.

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Webwanderer
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:17 am

My take is that it is not so much a reason, but a result of the energy stream you are in by virtue of the energies you attract. It wasn't in your creative flow to be there when these things happened. Appreciate the harmony that kept you safe.

WW

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by karmarider » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:32 am

Wow, that's quite a story. You might enjoy the movie/book "Perfume."

I don't know if anyone can come up with definitive answers to these questions. I don't think reality is scripted. Events happen. I don't think there is volition in the mind, except perhaps the choice to move attention. There is no such thing as an unconditioned thought. There is no self, there is no control, there isn't a particular reason.

And yet there is something which is aware of all of this, and is able to change the experience of all the non-volitional and non-scripted activity.

Perhaps Adyashanti's answer here http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/te ... shanti.htm, which is yes and no and maybe, is relevant, even if it is unsatisfying to the dualistic mind.

Enjoy your good fortune!

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:14 am

EP, if you were to reflect on the events leading to you moving (out of the way) - in a sensual way - what was your body feeling / telling you, were there any 'niggles' of 'needing' to move, or was life just sort of happening?

Did you have any particular resistance to moving?

Or did you feel 'naturally inclined' to move?

Were you moving towards something, or away from something?

All change/s move us into our future.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:00 am

karmarider wrote:And yet there is something which is aware of all of this, and is able to change the experience of all the non-volitional and non-scripted activity.
That would be our conscious self. We are awareness, the Essence of Source, unique in perspective, and inherent with sufficient volition to apply meaning to events through conditioned thought structures, or through chosen review.

except perhaps the choice to move attention.
Moving attention alters the experience. Choosing to apply one meaning over another is the volition that alters the feeling quality of experience. Altering the feeling quality alters the experience.

WW

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by karmarider » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:34 am

Well then, WW, we agree. :)

I don't like to call it awareness, the Essence of Source, Self, the true self, the real self, and so on. I did do that for a time, and thought I understood what I was talking about, but through John Sherman I realized that's actually very misleading, even if we believe we are getting closer to the truth. To call it just you (or me) is much more direct. It's just the sense of you.

On attention, I think that's a critical seeing. To move attention to the sense of you, what it feels like to be you--is moving attention to "conscious self." It's what Nisargadatta was talking about when he said to "hold on to the sense of I AM" and what Ramana was talking about when he said to ask "Who am I" and it's really what ET means by presence and Adyashanti means by awareness. But to say "look at you, look at the sense of you" is somehow much more direct and less distracting than to use the usual spiritual terms.

This "looking at you" eliminates the basic fear and the feeling of separation. I don't quite understand why it works; I have a hypothesis but that's not important.

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by EternalPrize » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:41 am

Webwanderer wrote:My take is that it is not so much a reason, but a result of the energy stream you are in by virtue of the energies you attract. It wasn't in your creative flow to be there when these things happened. Appreciate the harmony that kept you safe.

WW
This is precisely what I wonder. It's like, I've been reading David Bohm lately, who was a quantum physicist who seemed to think the "matter/consciousness" divide might be illusory, and they might be inseperable. And rather than wondering if these "happened" for a reason, I do wonder if my own energies manifested it because it was a mirror of something within my soul, something being expressed on the level of the life experience. Perhaps electrons or matter have a base level consciousness and forges its own path through life, actively creating reality, out of a sort of psychic memory stored inside them? That type of thing. I mean, obviously this happened to many other people too, but I was taken by how it felt meaningful to me in a way I cannot describe. These things do not often happen to people, but having the theater shooter live in the building next to mine, and then have this happen, really seemed... something.

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karmarider wrote:Wow, that's quite a story. You might enjoy the movie/book "Perfume."

I don't know if anyone can come up with definitive answers to these questions. I don't think reality is scripted. Events happen. I don't think there is volition in the mind, except perhaps the choice to move attention. There is no such thing as an unconditioned thought. There is no self, there is no control, there isn't a particular reason.

And yet there is something which is aware of all of this, and is able to change the experience of all the non-volitional and non-scripted activity.

Perhaps Adyashanti's answer here http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/te ... shanti.htm, which is yes and no and maybe, is relevant, even if it is unsatisfying to the dualistic mind.

Enjoy your good fortune!
I've seen it and although a little disturbing, thought it was actually a very good movie. What do you mean the choice to move attention? The choice of the mind to create stories of this particular occurrence, or ask if it is meaningful?

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smiileyjen101 wrote:EP, if you were to reflect on the events leading to you moving (out of the way) - in a sensual way - what was your body feeling / telling you, were there any 'niggles' of 'needing' to move, or was life just sort of happening?

Did you have any particular resistance to moving?

Or did you feel 'naturally inclined' to move?

Were you moving towards something, or away from something?

All change/s move us into our future.
It's hard to say. This is an apartment I feel was very meaningful within my own growth as a person, especially in regards to nonduality. I moved there a different person in some real ways than I left. Specifically, I matured as a person and in my attitude towards life, and what I expected or had felt entitled to. I didn't move for any specific reasons or strong messages. I just had the opportunity to move and felt the time was right. I had grown, living downtown (Denver) was better, and I felt like every once in awhile you need to change life, as it gives us better opportunities to experience ourselves in different ways. But when I left the apartment, I did feel I was leaving something important behind - my old self. The self that, despite its problems and neuroses and self-hatred, I loved, because it was me. So it's weird the past literally burned away in this sense. Another strange thing is I was there last week Friday, and talked to another resident, a girl whose beauty often caught my attention, but who I had never talked to. We exchanged a short conversation while she was moving boxes, and she told me she wanted to get out of the apt because her BF got beat up and the killer lived next door, and she felt bad about the place. Something about that conversation meant a lot to me, and I reflected on her and what she said for some time after the conversation. She ended up breaking both her feet and fracturing vertebrae in this incident. Something about that made me pause.

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by ZenDrumming » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:53 am

That's pretty crazy, EP, thanks for sharing.

I wouldn't dwell on it. If anything, over analyzing could have prevented you from leaving when you did. I don't think we can really know the reasons behind what happens. We follow the path as well as we can, and learn to be guided by intuition/feeling. It certainly does make you step back for a moment though...

I like to draw faith from these situations, and remind myself to be respectful to and grateful for those deeper forces.

Hope you're enjoying it in Denver. I've actually been considering moving out there.

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by karmarider » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:08 am

EternalPrize wrote:...What do you mean the choice to move attention? The choice of the mind to create stories of this particular occurrence, or ask if it is meaningful?
No, not the choice to move attention to the contents of the mind, but to move attention to the sense of you, the feel of you, just what it feels like to be you. The sense of you is prior to the contents (stories) of the mind.

I am trying to describe John Sherman's technique which snuffs out the basic fear of life.

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by rachMiel » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:56 pm

EternalPrize wrote:Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chance?
As I see it, it's a mix: Some things happen for a reason, and some things just happen.

Individual and collective karma influence what happens, though not linearly. Something along the lines of: What you sow, so shall you reap. Thoughts and actions set the scene for how things unfold.

And then there are "random" events, things that happen for no other reason than: they happen.

As to your decision to get off a plane that ended up exploding in mid-air, lots of "forces" might be in play: chance (coincidence), intuition (you might have seen that the engine was damaged and made a survival move to get off), karma (what got you in that situation to begin with, what got you out?), etc.

What do you think? Was it blind chance that saved you?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by the key master » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:11 pm

karmarider wrote:
EternalPrize wrote:...What do you mean the choice to move attention? The choice of the mind to create stories of this particular occurrence, or ask if it is meaningful?
No, not the choice to move attention to the contents of the mind, but to move attention to the sense of you, the feel of you, just what it feels like to be you. The sense of you is prior to the contents (stories) of the mind.

I am trying to describe John Sherman's technique which snuffs out the basic fear of life.
And who is it that has this choice to move attention to the sense of you? Thinking is a constriction of attention. There isn't anyone making a choice to constrict attention. Mind is engaged when there is an interest, which isn't chosen either.

The absence of constriction feels like an expanse in relation to the experience of being constricted. Its a dualistic experience, one defining the other, and doesn't have anything to do with the realization that "what you are" is "prior to" form, at least beyond an imagined relationship at best. You wouldn't know what the "feel of you" was if you didn't have something else to compare it to. Neither are you.

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by karmarider » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:08 pm

the key master wrote:...
I read what you wrote several times and I have no idea what you're getting to. As previously noted, I really am not interested in any sort of metaphysical or intellectual analysis of something which is experientially so imminent and simple.

The basic problem in human beings is the sense that there is a problem. Call this the fear of life, a dissatisfaction, Buddha's dukkha, a separation of life and mind, a chasm, an inner atmosphere of fear, the hum of anxiety, or whatever. It's a delusion that comes very early in life--in my life it had started for as long as memory can take me back. It is the delusion in which all subsequent mental structures form. Since the experience of life is through the mind, and mental structures are already compromised by this separation, everything else is uncertain.

In my experience, the mental understanding of this can be important, but not enough.

The "looking at the sense of you" snuffs out this separation and begins recovery. All it takes is one look.

The sense of you is the obvious and ordinary sense of you. And to "look" is simply to move attention to.

I haven't worked out the mechanics of why it works and I don't think that's very useful, except perhaps to provide further intellectual fodder.

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by the key master » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:22 pm

kr said,
I read what you wrote several times and I have no idea what you're getting to. As previously noted, I really am not interested in any sort of metaphysical or intellectual analysis of something which is experientially so imminent and simple.
Um, when you think, do you notice a constriction of attention? When you aren't thinking, do you notice a more expansive attention? I'm just saying you're a noticer, not an attention shifter. Wasn't trying to be all intellekchoooal about it.
The basic problem in human beings is the sense that there is a problem.
Is this your sense of it?
The sense of you is the obvious and ordinary sense of you. And to "look" is simply to move attention to.
Again, you're talking as if you yourself, and every other human, is an attention shifter. That's the delusion.
I haven't worked out the mechanics of why it works and I don't think that's very useful, except perhaps to provide further intellectual fodder.
You're recommending a technique which you don't know or understand why or how it works, and you don't think it would be useful to understand that. Maybe it doesn't work, which is why you havent understood it yet, and never will.

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by arel » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:32 pm

The key master, always so sure in his concepts compared to concepts of others. Sounds so annoying to me.
Yes I'm not an attention shifter. I would say that I am everything. Attention and the shifter would not be possible without me. I have free will and I don't at the same time, depends how I look at it. So ultimately I don't know how it works. And it's not a position to not take a position. I simply don't know. Because of my nature. I'm simply aware of concepts. And they can change, in time and person.

Karmarider, maybe looking at the sense of who I am helps not to fear because what I am is not the body that fears and cares to survive. This shift in seeing who I am.. There can be fear, but it has nothing to do with my survival, I don't die and was never born.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by the key master » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:22 pm

arel wrote:The key master, always so sure in his concepts compared to concepts of others. Sounds so annoying to me.
Thanks for expressing your feelings.
Yes I'm not an attention shifter.
Me either.
I would say that I am everything. Attention and the shifter would not be possible without me.
There's no such thing as an attention shifter.
I have free will and I don't at the same time, depends how I look at it. So ultimately I don't know how it works.
Welp, you can't have free will and not have it at the same time, but I certainly don't mind exploring the topic contextually. The idea that you have free will isn't ultimately true, but neither is the idea that you don't. The question is misconceived because of the assumption that time and space and things inside of them(like a person) actually exist, which they don't. Absent that assumption, the whole idea collapses into a, ehm, greasy little spot. And yet, we can see how something like "willingness" operates within the framework of what we sometimes call a conditioned mind. There is either willingness to notice unconsciousness, or there isn't, which isn't chosen, or willed, or manifested, or created, or caused. No techniques necessary, although courage and self honesty are nice to see.
And it's not a position to not take a position. I simply don't know. Because of my nature. I'm simply aware of concepts. And they can change, in time and person.
You're trying to baffle with bullshit. The reason you think you have free will and you don't have free will isn't because of your nature,its because you're confused. You think two conflicting ideas are true at the same time, while in reality neither of them are.

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