Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chance?

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arel
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by arel » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:01 pm

the key master wrote:You're trying to baffle with bullshit. The reason you think you have free will and you don't have free will isn't because of your nature,its because you're confused. You think two conflicting ideas are true at the same time, while in reality neither of them are.
the key master wrote:The idea that you have free will isn't ultimately true, but neither is the idea that you don't.
Amen, we are both baffling with bull shit :)
And I am not confused. I have no state. I am aware of two conflicting ideas though, which depends on perspective, which I am comfortable with. Call it confusion. I think you are confused to make constructs like you do from a non personal perspective. We are all confused trying to make sense of it all :)
the key master wrote:The question is misconceived because of the assumption that time and space and things inside of them(like a person) actually exist, which they don't.
They don't? How is it that you mention them in your speech then, in that sentence? They exist, but I would say they are an illusion. Everything exists. By what means and what is the common thread in all that exists, that's worth looking at and rarely mentioned.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

the key master
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by the key master » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:20 pm

arel said,
Amen, we are both baffling with bull shit
I have a 10 kilogram baffle limit per day :mrgreen: I'm almost there!
I am aware of two conflicting ideas though, which depends on perspective, which I am comfortable with.
Being comfortable with contradiction often means getting comfy with delusion. I'm saying the context within which the free will question is asked is misconceived, not that there are two equally true answers depending on perspective.

I said,
The question is misconceived because of the assumption that time and space and things inside of them(like a person) actually exist, which they don't.
then arel said,
They don't? How is it that you mention them in your speech then, in that sentence?
They exist because they're mentioned? I meant what the words supposedly point to isn't real. Saying the words doesn't change that.
They exist, but I would say they are an illusion. Everything exists.
The reason we call time and space illusions is cuz they don't exist. Otherwise, what's the point of calling them illusions?? No wonder you're confused :mrgreen:

karmarider
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by karmarider » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:43 am

You're recommending a technique which you don't know or understand why or how it works, and you don't think it would be useful to understand that...
Yes, that's right. I want to be honest about it. And happily, I've found that people who are not in love with their own intellect are open to exploring this on their own, as actual experience.

We've gone around on this before. I find that you are highly attached to particular concepts and particular terminology which I honestly find to be bizarre and bereft of actual experience. I can only repeat to you that you will find more sympathetic enabling in someone else.
Last edited by karmarider on Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

karmarider
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by karmarider » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:05 am

arel wrote:Karmarider, maybe looking at the sense of who I am helps not to fear because what I am is not the body that fears and cares to survive. This shift in seeing who I am.. There can be fear, but it has nothing to do with my survival, I don't die and was never born.
Yeah, my hypothesis about it is similar. But it's impossible to describe. Because there isn't a direct co-relation. With the looking, there is no direct confirmation. But there is a recovery period, which at least for me was not always pleasant. After a time the feeling of separation disappears. Nothing is answered; it's just that the questions disappear.

Even to say this doesn't quite describe it.

the key master
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by the key master » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:30 am

karmarider wrote:
You're recommending a technique which you don't know or understand why or how it works, and you don't think it would be useful to understand that...
Yes, that's right. I want to be honest about it. And happily, I've found that people who are not in love with their own intellect are open to exploring this on their own, as actual experience.

We've gone around on this before. I find that you are highly attached to particular concepts and particular terminology which I honestly find to be bizarre and bereft of actual experience. I can only repeat to you that you will find more sympathetic enabling in someone else.

Recommending a technique that you don't understand how or why it works is a roundabout way of saying you don't even know what you're recommending. Im glad you're honest about that.

On the other hand, I asked you a very simple question two posts ago, who is shifting the attention? You didn't answer. That's not me being attached to concepts, that's you ducking questions while imagining something else is going on. You're deluded into believing that you are an entity shifting attention, and projecting your split mind state onto other people like its the thang to do. You won't find any sympathy here for that unconscious non sense.

Blenderhead
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by Blenderhead » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:38 am

If there is no free will, there is no need for spirituality in the world. However, humans can actively particpate in awakening. We can choose to be present. But this choice is only possible, because consciousness wants to evolve. We are attention shifters as well as observers, in my experience. It's a mystery.

:D

Now, back to stillness, our minds wont figure this out.

the key master
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by the key master » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:44 am

Blenderhead wrote: We are attention shifters as well as observers, in my experience. It's a mystery.

:D
You can't have an experience of that which observes experience. You may observe the shift from constricted to expansive attention, but this doesn't imply a shifter.

Blenderhead
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by Blenderhead » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:42 am

:) :wink:

karmarider
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by karmarider » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:54 pm

the key master wrote:Recommending a technique that you don't understand how or why it works is a roundabout way of saying you don't even know what you're recommending. Im glad you're honest about that.
How to do the technique is clear in actual experience. What it does is clear in actual experience. That it is about actual experience and not intellectual understanding is clear to those who are not blinded by the apparent brilliance of their own intellect.

And yes, I'm not sure about the mechanics of it. I don't know the mechanics of many things--I don't know the mechanics of birth and death, or how a child learns language. And yet all of these happen.
On the other hand, I asked you a very simple question two posts ago, who is shifting the attention? You didn't answer...
Correct. As pointed out before, I find your intellectual axioms to be constricting and devoid of actual experience, so I don't answer your leading questions.

There is no self except the idea of it, there is no choosing, there is no volition, there is no one shifting attention. Whereas this is true, an intellectual belief in it is not enough to dispel delusion. Those who are not cornered in the confines particular intellectual axioms, are actually able to "look at the sense of you, what it feels like to be you" and in doing so destroy the delusion of fear.

I realize that you dismiss what doesn't fit tetris-like in your intellectual axioms. I am not trying to convince you. I have no interest in accepting your particular axioms or terminology. So I don't take your intellectual bait.

Well, except this time. And another time if I feel like it.

the key master
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by the key master » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:50 pm

Howdy.
How to do the technique is clear in actual experience. What it does is clear in actual experience. That it is about actual experience and not intellectual understanding is clear to those who are not blinded by the apparent brilliance of their own intellect.
If its so clear then why cant you explain it? All I'm saying is that you can't have an experience of that which observes experience. There's no techniques or practices or potions you can drink that's gonna change that. Do you disagree with that? It seems like you do and you dont at the same time, which is a bit odd.
And yes, I'm not sure about the mechanics of it. I don't know the mechanics of many things--I don't know the mechanics of birth and death, or how a child learns language. And yet all of these happen.
Shifting attention "appears" to happen. That doesn't make you or anyone else a shifter.
Correct. As pointed out before, I find your intellectual axioms to be constricting and devoid of actual experience, so I don't answer your leading questions.
Its comical to me, because all I've been trying to do is talk about your actual experience. I asked you if you notice a constriction of attention when thinking. I also asked you if you noticed a more expansive attention when not thinking. You didn't answer these questions either, and your reason is because of their axiomatic nature? I'm not leading you or baiting and switching you, just taking an honest look at what's going, while you're avoiding doing that. That's where the fear is.
There is no self except the idea of it, there is no choosing, there is no volition, there is no one shifting attention.
Ok, so why are you telling people to shift attention, and that people can make the choice to shift attention? Wait, let's back track.
And yes, I'm not sure about the mechanics of it.
Oh, you don't know.
Whereas this is true, an intellectual belief in it is not enough to dispel delusion. Those who are not cornered in the confines particular intellectual axioms, are actually able to "look at the sense of you, what it feels like to be you" and in doing so destroy the delusion of fear.
You might wanna round up dem der giraffes. You see me as being cornered in the confines of an axiom, while you're the one advocating a technique while simultaneously refusing to scrutinize your own recommendation. That's called projection. Then you're talking about "those who are actually able to look at the sense of you", as if there's actually people running around who can do this little technique. The core delusion is that separation is real, as opposed to merely apparent. You aren't uprooting that delusion, you're cementing it, as can be noticed by your own unwillingness to scrutinize yourself.
I realize that you dismiss what doesn't fit tetris-like in your intellectual axioms. I am not trying to convince you. I have no interest in accepting your particular axioms or terminology. So I don't take your intellectual bait.
I'm not dismissing anything. I'm looking at what's going on, namely, you recommending something that you don't even, nor could possibly, understand, and I'm pointing that out. Then you're dismissing me.

arel
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by arel » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:02 pm

the key master wrote:
arel wrote: They don't? How is it that you mention them in your speech then, in that sentence?
They exist because they're mentioned? I meant what the words supposedly point to isn't real. Saying the words doesn't change that.
Funny your reaction, sounding baffled by that, as if you can't wrap you mind around the simplicity of it. But to me it is that simple and intellectually baffling. It's not about getting an intellectual concept and sticking to it. It's about checking your experience right this moment, seeing who you are, and then sticking to it. And yes I am an attention shifter. As well as anything where the attention lands. Check it out for yourself.
the key master wrote:
arel wrote:They exist, but I would say they are an illusion. Everything exists.
The reason we call time and space illusions is cuz they don't exist. Otherwise, what's the point of calling them illusions?? No wonder you're confused
Is that the definition of illusion? Ok. Whatever. I use the word as in seeing something, but then upon closer examination seeing that it's not what I thought it was. It exists at the point of seeing the illusion and it then exists at the point of realizing it was an illusion as an illusion, in my thoughts. So to just play around with this, everything we, as this One aware presence, sense, is an illusion, it's all just consciousness taking form, but the substance of it is what I would call as Myself, consciousness, attention, aware presence. (sounds very spiritual I know).

You mentioned turning something that's unconscious conscious. Can I ask you to describe what you feel happens at the point of doing that?
What I say is only my viewpoint.

karmarider
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by karmarider » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:14 pm

the key master wrote:If its so clear then why cant you explain it?
I have. I don't know if a fifth reiteration of this will make it any clearer to you.

It's fascinating when delusion manifests as the intellectual theorizing of delusion. Yes, it's called projection.

the key master
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by the key master » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:35 pm

arel said,
Funny your reaction, sounding baffled by that, as if you can't wrap you mind around the simplicity of it.
I actually wasn't baffled at all by it. Being able to talk about things doesn't mean they exist in actuality. That's what all dat illusion talk is about.
And yes I am an attention shifter.
Before this you said,
Yes I'm not an attention shifter.
Its quite a circus we got goin on over here. I'm just trying to get all these giraffes in their proper stable, but you guys keep saddling em up and ridin em off into the sunset.

There is no attention shifter. There may be the appearance of an attention shift as mind appears to be engaged and then disengaged, but it would be a delusion thing to think you are an entity shifting. Noticing that idea isn't true is the end of it. It doesn't get replaced by some other idea, like you are the awareness within which attention shifting happens, that's just the mind identification looking for some form of identity to perpetuate. Awakening is about allowing yourself to be stripped bare of all that you thought was your's (beliefs).
Is that the definition of illusion? Ok. Whatever. I use the word as in seeing something, but then upon closer examination seeing that it's not what I thought it was. It exists at the point of seeing the illusion and it then exists at the point of realizing it was an illusion as an illusion, in my thoughts.
If you realize the illusion was an illusion, aren't you realizing that it doesn't actually exist? If you think a rope is a snake, and then see that this was all an illusion, that the rope is indeed a rope, its safe to say the snake didn't actually exist, yar?
So to just play around with this, everything we, as this One aware presence, sense, is an illusion, it's all just consciousness taking form, but the substance of it is what I would call as Myself, consciousness, attention, aware presence. (sounds very spiritual I know).
I dont have a problem with that assessment. I would say that everything you sense as separate from yourself only appears that way. And then we can talk about the illusion of time and space, the illusion of being a mind or person, to make sense of what's going on.
You mentioned turning something that's unconscious conscious. Can I ask you to describe what you feel happens at the point of doing that?
Sure, that's liberation. You are liberated from something you believed to be true, which leaves a precarious absence, which can be difficult to talk about. Noticing how and why the mind avoids unconsciousness allows what isn't conscious, to become so. Or we could just say noticing unconsciousness makes it conscious.

Mind becomes fully conscious while consciousness is what its always been. Mind doesn't need to shift attention to become consciousness, because "what you are" already is consciousness. Becoming conscious is more of an allowing than a doing, because the mind which is "becoming more conscious" isn't actually you. That's the illusion. :wink:

the key master
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by the key master » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:39 pm

karmarider wrote:
the key master wrote:If its so clear then why cant you explain it?
I have. I don't know if a fifth reiteration of this will make it any clearer to you.

It's fascinating when delusion manifests as the intellectual theorizing of delusion. Yes, it's called projection.
You've explained that you don't understand the mechanics of the technique that you're recommending, and then you've expressed an unwillingness to examine the mechanics of the technique in question. One technique you seem to have mastered is how to deceive yourself and not notice what's going on. You can call that whatever you want. :roll:

arel
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Re: Do things happen for a reason, or is it just blind chanc

Post by arel » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:42 pm

key master wrote:
arel wrote:And yes I am an attention shifter.
Before this you said,
arel wrote:Yes I'm not an attention shifter.
I can repeat that again. I'm shifting attention right now, from hearing to sensations in my body and onto things around in my environment. I'm also unmoving as awareness, the watcher of the attention moving. Attention shifting is possible because of me, happens in me and through me. I also see the concept just formed in my mind about having cause and effect to all that movement. But that's all "in retrospect", in the mind, though in the Now.

For me going from unconcious to concious is when attention moves onto itself, attention has become aware of itself.
It doesn't get replaced by some other idea, like you are the awareness within which attention shifting happens, that's just the mind identification looking for some form of identity to perpetuate.
Of course it gets replaced by that idea, it's the main point. But not to understand it, and talk about it, but to experience and live it. So you are saying it's not. So who are you then? Who am I addressing this post to?
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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