How can we know there's no death

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How can we know there's no death

Postby jibbles » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:37 am

Sorry if there's already a thread on this.

How can anyone know there is no death until one actually dies? Having gone through enlightenment, I see that there is much more to existence than I had previously thought, but how can anyone really claim to know?
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:24 am

Can you grow through life not knowing and being okay with that too?

There are lots of topics on the matter in the Beyond the physical section where you'll likely find lots of different perspectives and nuances.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:17 pm

jibbles wrote:Sorry if there's already a thread on this.

How can anyone know there is no death until one actually dies? Having gone through enlightenment, I see that there is much more to existence than I had previously thought, but how can anyone really claim to know?

If your body is clinically dead, and you remain conscious of being, it becomes quite clear that death is an experience, not an end. If such experience and recall is common among those who have experienced clinical death and were revived, then the evidence becomes strong. When the numbers of those making such after death reports reaches many tens of thousands, the evidence becomes even stronger. When the teachings of most of the great spiritual teachers of history, known for their clarity and depth, refer to an afterlife as being our primary home, the evidence becomes overwhelming.

Look to Jen's link. There are some good discussions and some links to several NDE sites there.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby ashley72 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:56 pm

When the physical body dies so does the ability to see, hear, smell, taste & touch along with cognition. Those people that have NDE haven't actually died so their testimony about death is invalid.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby arel » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:06 am

I believe similiar to what Ashley said about NDEs, the descriptions I heard talk about perceptions of different sorts it seems. But what dies is perception. What we are or what all this is, is the present moment. And that never dies and was never born, how could it?
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Rick » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:55 am

Don't know to much about the NDE stuff but I did do a bit of reading recently.

The following story, related in part, is related by a man whose NDE happened when he was eleven. It contains an interesting exchange with a "being" in his experience.

"As I sat down and breathed in the fresh wonderful air, I looked around. What a wonderful place to rest. The floor was flat and smooth, polished to perfection such that it looked seamless. This garden terrace was surrounded by low marble pillars and a marble railing and looked like it had been formed right out of the side of the mountain in one seamless effort. I noticed the stark contrast between the formal perfection of white marble and the surrounding mountain that was rough and ragged by comparison.

It seemed like only moments while I looked around this beautiful setting, when I noticed a very warm, kindly, old gentleman sitting beside me on the bench. I had not seen or heard him come - he was just there. A light smile crossed his face, and I knew he was a friend. His face was warmly wrinkled, but soft. His eyes were a soft blue and yet with a depth and sparkle of wisdom. I looked away so as not to fall into his eyes; and as I did, he spoke to me. His voice was firm, but soft and loving.

He said, "Well, you've had a rough day," as if he knew all about it.

With a tired sigh I said, "I sure have!"

No further explanation seemed necessary as we both sat there. Then, I remembered just how much trouble I really was in; and I looked back at him hoping he would have an answer I could stand to hear.

"I asked "Am I dead?"

He smiled to assure me and said, "No, you are not dead. Your body is in a lot of trouble, but it is being well taken care of and you do not need to worry."

I remember I felt so relieved to be told that I was not dead. Life was not over. This was not the end. All these things ran through my mind like a whirlwind that stopped abruptly, and I was filled with a million questions as to explain my current condition. I could not explain why I felt like I was sitting here in this place feeling very much like I had a body and yet knowing very much that I had left it behind.

Again I looked at him, and his face looked so understanding I knew he had the answers even before I asked the question. It was like we could read each others thoughts - even before words were spoken - and I'm not sure but what a lot of our communication did take place this way, mind to mind. Then a kind of panic set in.

I demanded of him: "How am I here, in this place, when I know that my body is back there in the hospital?" And "Where is this place? How do I see this place and you, if I'm not with my body? How can I be two places at once?" I began to feel very upset. "What are you?" I demanded!

His voice calmed me immediately. He said, "You are in a very special place. You are safe."

He went on to explain that, though my body was in the hospital, it was my physical body and that each of us has also our spiritual body and our mental body.

He said, "It is your mental and spiritual body that is here. It is with your mental and spiritual eyes that you see this place. Likewise, it is through your mental and spiritual body senses that you perceive everything in and about this place. This place is in your mind's eye, your imagination; it is as it is because this is exactly what you need it to be. Your physical crisis and mental need caused it to be just as you perceive it. I am here too without a physical body. You see me as I see myself in my own mind's eye. A mental picture (a thought) from my mind to your mind's eye. I am as you see me because this is the way that I perceived that you needed me to be. Who I am or my name is not important. I am here for you on behalf of your heavenly Father's love for you and to remind you from where you came."

My first thought was - The hospital?

He smiled a smile of wisdom and patience beyond wisdom itself and said lovingly, "No, I mean your Father's house."
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:24 am

When the physical body dies so does the ability to see, hear, smell, taste & touch along with cognition.
Those people that have NDE haven't actually died so their testimony about death is invalid.

Guess there's just no arguing with this logic.
Which comes from what scope of validity I wonder :lol:

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:55 am

ashley72 wrote:When the physical body dies so does the ability to see, hear, smell, taste & touch along with cognition.

So you believe you are the physical body? Curious. Of course you are welcome to believe whatever you want, but Tolle, the people who have actually had NDE's, and I, would disagree.

Those people that have NDE haven't actually died so their testimony about death is invalid.

Of course they haven't actually died. That is after all the point. Their body was dead according to medical professionals who know a great deal more about physical viability than you. You are not your body. Didn't we get beyond this a long time ago?

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:23 am

In fairness accepting another's experiences is most difficult to do and not really within the scope of any thing anyone is required to do.

I do have to chuckle a little immaturely though. The arguments Ashley raises were exactly those that were raised when I tried to find out 'what happened', to me, to my body, in my experience etc 30 years ago. No one could answer the questions I raised because they couldn't get over the fact that I should not have been able to 'know' the questions I was asking in the first place - eg how did I 'know' who had come into the room and was where, doing what, when I had no signs of 'life' - and yet was omnipresent and able to view things - obviously not with physical 'sight' and hear things that I can't even hear with my ears - the thoughts and feelings/emotions of others and their intentions and things into the future, and see things that were not in my line of body - sight and know things 'unknown' to everybody else but me - all that was later proven and noted to have been correct - it wasn't me that started the investigating, it was the doctors who wanted to know etc etc

I would be happy for anyone to come up with an explanation that encompasses these parts of the experience/s and have been actively assisting researchers and submitting myself to other 'possible' explanations, but none actually satisfy the actualities. Until then, I can only know what I know and others can only accept what they can accept.

In terms of continuing life though I would tend to look more to seriously countless examples of accurate and provable 'proof of continuing life' from those who are not just clinically dead, but buried, cremated and bodies really no longer 'physical'.

Again though if it's not within you to accept these, (in terms of willingness) then it will not be within you to accept them.
There are many with clair abilities who have helped many by being the 'instrument' through which this information can come.
There are also many valid documentations of them. But again you can't force anyone to accept these things, as my granny would say - there's none so blind as those that will not see, and none so deaf as those that will not hear.

Again in my own experiences I would be happy for someone to come up with another fitting, reasonable explanation - and it's the reason I keep checking on how 'science' and the 'skeptics' are doing with it. Denial leaves much unable to be understood.

i would still say to the OP - can you grow through life even without this knowledge? Some 'go' through life, others 'grow' through life.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby ashley72 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:37 am

Webwanderer wrote:
ashley72 wrote:When the physical body dies so does the ability to see, hear, smell, taste & touch along with cognition.

So you believe you are the physical body? Curious. Of course you are welcome to believe whatever you want, but Tolle, the people who have actually had NDE's, and I, would disagree.


WW, Do you believe that the self continues to see, hear, smell, taste & touch & have any kind of cognitive functions once your physical body starts to decay after permanent death? IMO, All those functions cease to be... once the physical body is deprived of oxygen and starts to decay.

Webwanderer wrote:
ashley72 wrote:Those people that have NDE haven't actually died so their testimony about death is invalid.

Of course they haven't actually died. That is after all the point. Their body was dead according to medical professionals who know a great deal more about physical viability than you.


Well, if a NDE person hasn't died... how can their body be classified dead? IMO, when someone has reached permanent death, they're a rotting corpse.

If someone is presume to have reached permanent death by a medical professional, and lives to tell the tale.... he wasn't permanently dead in the first place. When you're permanently dead, you're permanently dead. End of story.

BTW, any medical professional who wrongly classifies someone dead, when they still alive.... probably need's a lot more professional training! :lol:

Webwanderer wrote: You are not your body. Didn't we get beyond this a long time ago?


I would rephrase that to.... You're not merely limited to a physical body. You're also not limited by mere thoughts & feelings. Our Attentive nature which inhibit's the body is our primary formless nature. But that doesn't mean we ignore the pivotal role of our physical body which provides seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, memories & feelings. :D
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby karmarider » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:37 am

Anita Moorjani's conveyance of her near death experience was certainly very curious.

But it's outside of the scope of my experience. What happens in life is pretty interesting. I can wait to find out about after death after death.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby ashley72 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:52 am

A better, more specific question to ask would have been:

How can we know for sure if Local Consciousness or our "formless attentive nature" also dies at the point of permanent death?

It can't be answered because permanent death isn't a reversible process, its the end of human experience period, so its impossible to have knowledge of something via direct experience, when human experience has been irreversibly extinguished.

Wikipedia: In the context of complex systems, events which lead to the end of certain self-organising processes, like death, extinction of a species or the collapse of a meteorological system can be considered as irreversible.

Therefore Near Death, isn't near enough IMO. :lol:
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby rideforever » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:53 am

If you look closely you will see that you aren't actually alive.

So then you can forget about death.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby ashley72 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:07 am

Rick wrote:His voice calmed me immediately. He said, "You are in a very special place. You are safe."


I wonder if there are any Spirit-forms speaking Japanese in the transcendental realm?

可能性が低い
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby ashley72 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:14 am

rideforever wrote:If you look closely you will see that you aren't actually alive.

So then you can forget about death.


Are you breathing or farting at the moment? If you answer yes to either, you're probably still "conceptually" alive at the moment. :lol:
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