How can we know there's no death

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Enlightened2B
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Enlightened2B » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:34 pm

Thanks for your response Nomember. It don't know if you are on board with me or not and it doesn't matter if you are or not. My perspective is not anymore correct than yours. As you said we're each on our own paths. Yet, I can see through a lot of the bullshit of spiritual bypassing and my life right now is dedicated to authenticity and most of an awareness of my own feelings and emotions. You're not fully BEING unless you're fully EXPRESSING on all levels. There is only BEING itself, and Being involves ALL of it.

To be honest, I've been exposed to a lot of neo-advaita shit which steered me in the wrong direction for a time period and I understand it was all part of the journey, but I just get very irritated when interacting with people who put a pretentious front of pretending they understand what reality is and who they are, and make it impossible to have communications on an online forum by because they speak from some non-existent place which is only another mental position, when in reality, it's so blatantly plastic as far as their own understanding which resides solely on the intellectual/conceptual level.

This is not a personal attack on you (nothing is ultimately personal in that sense anyway) or anyone else's character, but it's more of a cold reading of people. Even your username brings me great irritation haha.

As I've said to TD, in the post above, the people who truly understand "non-duality" are the ones who are actually living human lives and EMBRACING their humannness. We are here to only be human and not pretend we are enlightened. I have no shame admitting this, because I've more and more allowed myself to embrace my human emotions, which includes anger, irritation, sadness, as well.

One of the reasons I've kind of been posting less on this forum of recent times, is that I don't resonate anymore with the hardcore non-dual stuff and the forum is kind of (for the most part) filled with that. But, there are some great posters and posts here and if you can open your own perspective and not sit so rigidly on your own mental positions, you'll come to see that you're just putting up your own facade. I say this lovingly.

We've all been there at some point or another, but spiritual bypassing does not help anyone and most of all, YOU.

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Nomember
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Nomember » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:03 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:Thanks for your response Nomember. It don't know if you are on board with me or not and it doesn't matter if you are or not. My perspective is not anymore correct than yours. As you said we're each on our own paths. Yet, I can see through a lot of the bullshit of spiritual bypassing and my life right now is dedicated to authenticity and most of an awareness of my own feelings and emotions. You're not fully BEING unless you're fully EXPRESSING on all levels. There is only BEING itself, and Being involves ALL of it.

To be honest, I've been exposed to a lot of neo-advaita shit which steered me in the wrong direction for a time period and I understand it was all part of the journey, but I just get very irritated when interacting with people who put a pretentious front of pretending they understand what reality is and who they are, and make it impossible to have communications on an online forum by because they speak from some non-existent place which is only another mental position, when in reality, it's so blatantly plastic as far as their own understanding which resides solely on the intellectual/conceptual level.

This is not a personal attack on you (nothing is ultimately personal in that sense anyway) or anyone else's character, but it's more of a cold reading of people. Even your username brings me great irritation haha.

As I've said to TD, in the post above, the people who truly understand "non-duality" are the ones who are actually living human lives and EMBRACING their humannness. We are here to only be human and not pretend we are enlightened. I have no shame admitting this, because I've more and more allowed myself to embrace my human emotions, which includes anger, irritation, sadness, as well.

One of the reasons I've kind of been posting less on this forum of recent times, is that I don't resonate anymore with the hardcore non-dual stuff and the forum is kind of (for the most part) filled with that. But, there are some great posters and posts here and if you can open your own perspective and not sit so rigidly on your own mental positions, you'll come to see that you're just putting up your own facade. I say this lovingly.

We've all been there at some point or another, but spiritual bypassing does not help anyone and most of all, YOU.
Thanks, I can't say that I've ever personally had a true handle on the way reality works, I'm actually always eager to learn more from others who are perhaps a bit further along the path than I am. I never intended to be stuck in a rigid Life is Nondual, end of, nothing more to report mentality. Perhaps, Nonduality was in fact a kind of launch pad for me toward seeing a higher understanding of reality. I must admit, Nondaul thinking is rather mundane and quite depressing to be honest, especially when they say this is it, this is all there is. It's like okay, how do they know that....anyway, I'm open to new ideas, that's why I joined ET's forum, it seemed to be the next stage in my evolution.

Yeah, and I agree with you about the user name.. I couldn't think what to use, so then I thought of November, since that's the month we are in, but then changed the V to M and thought it appropriate and original, I liked it at first because it's significance to me was that I didn't need to be a member of my own club, meaning my own beingness., so that's why I chose it initially, to say indicate that I'm not a member of my own club, if you get my drift... And yeah, I can see why that would be irritating to some here like yourself. The truth is, I don't like it either, in fact I hate it..LOL....but not sure I can change it.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:28 am

Nomember wrote:Thanks, I can't say that I've ever personally had a true handle on the way reality works, I'm actually always eager to learn more from others who are perhaps a bit further along the path than I am. I never intended to be stuck in a rigid Life is Nondual, end of, nothing more to report mentality. Perhaps, Nonduality was in fact a kind of launch pad for me toward seeing a higher understanding of reality. I must admit, Nondaul thinking is rather mundane and quite depressing to be honest, especially when they say this is it, this is all there is. It's like okay, how do they know that....anyway, I'm open to new ideas, that's why I joined ET's forum, it seemed to be the next stage in my evolution.
Hopefully you both don't mind me throwing in my 2 cents in :D.

I can't agree more with E2B's assertion about embracing our humanness. It is rather narrow-minded to think that after one's awakening or insight or understanding, that we can disassociate from our human emotions (both "good" and "bad") to become nothing but the Self. We are after all humans here aren't we? Any perspective of how anyone should be or act after some spiritual knowledge is all nothing but a PERSPECTIVE. An idea, a thought, a judgement, etc.

This leads to me second point :)... Nomember, with respect to any teaching, I have come to value the importance of inquiry. There are teachings purely mentally/conceptually based, and there are those which incorporate some form of physical/experiential components... (I am sure there are many other types as well). Having stumble and gotten lost and return and did a turnabout on some ideas/teachings, I have come to value experiences over concept alone. Even then, one must be vigilant in inquiring those experiences. Often they give rise to more questions than answers though LOL.

So what am I getting at? .... Try not to accept any teachings at face value, your own wisdom will guide you.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:43 am

Enlightened2B wrote:While the ones who are still denying their humanness or denying the relative and speaking as though they are existing from some non existent absolute place where nothing exists, are the ones who are trapped in a concept and likely full of....you know what, and that concept is very very difficult to get out of. Major spiritual bypassing. Can you tell how agitated I get talking about this? LOL
Haha, I think spiritual bypassing goes right back to what I wrote just above. If anything, we have to do the "hard" work to find out on the path. Else one wouldn't grow.
Seriously, who is this "Sparrow" dude/dudette I keep talking about. He gets his info from the Akashic Records as he has full access to Universal knowledge.

I know this might sound out there, but he's a pretty big hit on the internet on multiple spiritual forums and his word is valued greatly by many. I also HIGHLY resonate with much of what he says. I don't just resonate with any spiritual resource. But, this dude has a higher perspective and because of the access he was granted as a spirit guide as he intentionally incarnated here WITH that access of universal knowledge in order to provide it to others.

I know that might sound totally non plausible. But, I find him to be quite legit. I don't even know if it's a him or her btw. I've spoken to him through messages on another spiritual forum. And the stuff he gave to me was beyond incredible pertaining to past lives and other topics.

This dude (in my opinion) is the real deal.
Interesting. I have started reading some of Sparrow's posts. Some points they made jumped out at me as I have questioned similarly. But otherwise, I will keep an open mind until I have the required "proof". :)

dijmart
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by dijmart » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:54 am

. It is rather narrow-minded to think that after one's awakening or insight or understanding, that we can disassociate from our human emotions (both "good" and "bad") to become nothing but the Self. We are after all humans here aren't we? Any perspective of how anyone should be or act after some spiritual knowledge is all nothing but a PERSPECTIVE. An idea, a thought, a judgement, etc.
Um, you are the Self, that's fundamentally what you ARE appearing to appear as a human being....forgetting what you are naturally. Thoughts, feelings, emotions come and go through the form and can be felt fully in the moment they arise without an invitation to stay and cause misery.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:05 am

dijmart wrote:Um, you are the Self, that's fundamentally what you ARE appearing to appear as a human being....forgetting what you are naturally. Thoughts, feelings, emotions come and go through the form and can be felt fully in the moment they arise without an invitation to stay and cause misery.
Hi dijmart. Yes, fundamentally we are a PART of the Self, came from the Self, made of the Self etc. But we are not the Self in totality. Imagine the power! :D

Yes, and if those thoughts, feelings etc. aren't felt fully in the moment they arise, they may leave psychological marks.
... that's fundamentally what you ARE appearing to appear as a human being....forgetting what you are naturally.
Who is this "you" that which you are referring to? And how are we so sure that we're made to forget?

I feel there may have been a lot of simplification in the teachings of past gurus, possibly only because that was the only way to engage the students. Or maybe I cannot see the jump from being the Self and being part of the Self's finger puppet show.... Personally, there is a huge "why" that I cannot understand at the moment. I am not suggesting whether we were or weren't made to forget...I just don't understand LOL. :)

dijmart
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by dijmart » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:16 am

There is only "one" Self...appearing as many.
Who is this "you" that which you are referring to? And how are we so sure that were made to forget?
The "you" is consciousness, also the substratum which is the Self.

Isn't your experience one of forgetting your true nature?

Edit- I see you added to ur post. I'm leaving mine stand as is, for now.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

dijmart
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by dijmart » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:31 am

I feel there may have been a lot of simplification in the teachings of past gurus
Most won't find it that simple, since most are still sleepwalking, but I think I know what you mean. However, I will say every time I've made it complicated the more lost I became. The afterlife topics is a big one to get "lost" in, it just is a big merry go round of stuff for the mind to chew like a bone. Keeps a certain amount of restlessness present. It's just another aspect of consciousness, so what.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:39 am

dijmart wrote:There is only "one" Self...appearing as many.
Who is this "you" that which you are referring to? And how are we so sure that were made to forget?
The "you" is consciousness, also the substratum which is the Self.

Isn't your experience one of forgetting your true nature?

Edit- I see you added to ur post. I'm leaving mine stand as is, for now.

So to be clear we are on the same page, what is this Self you are referring to? Is it Consciousness or that before Consciousness from which it came?

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:44 am

dijmart wrote:
I feel there may have been a lot of simplification in the teachings of past gurus
Most won't find it that simple, since most are still sleepwalking, but I think I know what you mean. However, I will say every time I've made it complicated the more lost I became. The afterlife topics is a big one to get "lost" in, it just is a big merry go round of stuff for the mind to chew like a bone. Keeps a certain amount of restlessness present. It's just another aspect of consciousness, so what.
I understand what you mean. But I am finding myself asking more and more questions... It's like getting a gadget as a kid and wanting to pull it apart to figure out how things work. :lol:

Enlightened2B
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Enlightened2B » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:51 am

I think if you're truly BEING....which really means embracing every aspect of your experience, then you can do no wrong. We're so damn hard on ourselves to be so spiritually perfect (I used to be and still am) until you realize it's all nonsense. We're perfect as we are! Flaws and all. We're here to be human and part of being human is being IMperfect. It's the play of perfection within the confines of IMperfection (or apparent imperfection). Life was made to enjoy, learn, grow and create. Yes, avoiding our pain will backfire. We often subtlety will shy away from aspects of our experience out of fear of facing it, but I'm finding within my own experience that in order to really truly Love myself (which I've found I haven't through much of my life), I need to BE and BEing really means to feel and express, feel and express. It's an ongoing process for me. But, both feelings and emotions provide sign posts to us like a map, especially feelings. I've started to utilize dance as well as a form of expression to try to break through the barriers of fear I've been conditioned with. Self Love really is just that....loving/accepting/embracing everything in our experience.

The topic of the afterlife can become a convoluted fearful mess if we get too caught up in it conceptually and I know this from experience. I got a bit carried away with past life stuff, reincarnation, karma etc. and got lost in it, and personally, while I believe past lives very much exist, I think there's a lot of mis-understandings with much of that stuff as I feel that past lives are ultimately happening simultaneously and most past lives are not even OUR past lives.

What I've come to conclude at this point in my own short amount of research in afterlife stuff (not that you asked!) is that there is no forced reincarnation cycle contrary to what many religions and eastern philosophies will have you believe and everything is based on CHOICE. We CHOOSE to come here not because we need to learn lessons, not because we need to pay off karma, not because we have to, but because we WANT to, and we value the exploration of the human experience. We come here to be HUMANS. There is no such thing as enlightenment, because we already are enlightened. There are only openings to greater portals of consciousness which we open as we raise our vibration, but that in no way, is a mandate. It's merely once again....a matter of choice and exploration if we choose to.

We enjoy the experience of separation and we learn about ourselves through the contrast and most of all.....we create! It's that simple. There is no right and wrong from a greater sense. Literally, every single experience is valid in the eyes of unconditional Love. Our human lives end. Our bodies rot and who we truly are remembers it all and we "ascend" right back to a vibration of energy where we came from pre-incarnation and we will be once again connected with the rest of ourselves which is incredible unconditional love that we cannot even process with our human minds, and if we choose to come back to earth, we will, otherwise, we might explore any other area of the multiverse or stay in spirit. We are not souls. We are spirit itself, that is non-separate (but retains its uniqueness or not if we choose).

There, there's your afterlife. Doesn't have to be so confusing :D

Even with NDE's, there's such a vast array of human interpretations (and understandably so) of these experiences, that if you get too lost in some of the concepts, you'll start to believe that hell exists, karmic debts exist, Jesus is the Son of God (literally), and so on. Basically, it's all fear. People love fear, because it implies punishment. From hanging with a lot of NDE people (not all of them had NDE's), many want to know that "bad people" will be punished and therefore create ideas like karma and hell, etc, not realizing they are stuck in duality. There is no punishment, because there is no ONE to punish. The only punishment is self inflicted if we choose to based on our beliefs and thoughts. Our nature is not fear. Instead, I find the NDE's that resonate most with me are the ones that have the least amount of human interpretation (they all have some). (Natalie Sudman, Nanci Danison, Mellon Thomas Benedict, etc)

But, there is a wealth of knowledge to complement (not replace) our own perspectives as a form of expansive insight when it comes to NDE's. I think Bashar is pretty good also if anyone has checked him out as compared to other Channels which only create more fear. He also condemns much of the new age misinterpretations of past lives and such.

Did I just go off topic? Oops. Well, it is kind of related to the original OP.

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Nomember
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Nomember » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:57 am

dijmart wrote:
Um, you are the Self, that's fundamentally what you ARE appearing to appear as a human being....forgetting what you are naturally. Thoughts, feelings, emotions come and go through the form and can be felt fully in the moment they arise without an invitation to stay and cause misery.
I think maybe the reason they appear in the first place is because we are un-knowingly attracting them into our reality. If we don't invite them in we may be missing out on a very important lesson they are trying to teach us. Emotions can be our guide from beyond showing us something we need to learn about ourself perhaps?

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Nomember
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Nomember » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:05 am

TemporalDissonance wrote:
So what am I getting at? .... Try not to accept any teachings at face value, your own wisdom will guide you.
I agree totally, we contain all our own answers,and that everything we ever need to know is already within us, everything we care to imagine already exists, else we couldn't imagine it.

Therefore, there will only ever be one and only one question and that is to find out who's asking the question or questions. If there is no answer to the first question, then answers to subsequent questions ad infinitum will not be found either.

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Nomember
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Nomember » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:36 am

Enlightened2B wrote:I think if you're truly BEING....which really means embracing every aspect of your experience, then you can do no wrong. We're so damn hard on ourselves to be so spiritually perfect (I used to be and still am) until you realize it's all nonsense. We're perfect as we are! Flaws and all. We're here to be human and part of being human is being IMperfect. It's the play of perfection within the confines of IMperfection (or apparent imperfection). Life was made to enjoy, learn, grow and create. Yes, avoiding our pain will backfire. We often subtlety will shy away from aspects of our experience out of fear of facing it, but I'm finding within my own experience that in order to really truly Love myself (which I've found I haven't through much of my life), I need to BE and BEing really means to feel and express, feel and express. It's an ongoing process for me. But, both feelings and emotions provide sign posts to us like a map, especially feelings. I've started to utilize dance as well as a form of expression to try to break through the barriers of fear I've been conditioned with. Self Love really is just that....loving/accepting/embracing everything in our experience. .
You are correct in that we have to become totally unconditional love as ourself before we can fully understand how to unconditionally love another. To still love another when they have hurt and abandoned you for someone else is the only love worth having. This love realises it doesn't need to depend on love outside itself to feel complete, it already knows it is complete. Perhaps why many human relationships and marriages fail in the physical domain because they are not connecting on a true non-physical emotional level, they appear to be matching up on a superficial physical level which is not true love.

The pain of separation is there to serve a purpose in that it is our own higher self guiding our lower self back to true love self which is totally whole, complete and without condition.

PS..I really loved that link you provided, the essay on EGO IS MY FRIEND was brilliantly written, so thanks for posting it.

the key master
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by the key master » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:11 am

Nomember wrote: You are correct in that we have to become totally unconditional love as ourself before we can fully understand how to unconditionally love another.
I've been loosely keeping up on the thread bit figure may as well start here. Ok, but the becoming unconditional love isn't something which happens to the conditional self. Otherwise unconditional love just becomes another condition, which causes seeking and maintenance techniques in order to be loving, which, isn't really loving.
To still love another when they have hurt and abandoned you for someone else is the only love worth having.
If you have 2 parents, one that loves you and sticks by your side no matter what, and one that abandons and hurts you, is the love for the latter any different than the love for the former? And of the two, how could the one you say be the only one worth having? Isn't the love for one parent the exact same love as the love for another? Or are we talking about conditional love? Big difference.

On a more practical level, viewing one such love as preferable to another such love is likely to lead to this same 'love cycle' repeating itself in relationships, jobs, and if you ever have kids, then too. Mind identification sucks.
This love realises it doesn't need to depend on love outside itself to feel complete, it already knows it is complete.
That's exclusive and beautifully spoken.
Perhaps why many human relationships and marriages fail in the physical domain because they are not connecting on a true non-physical emotional level, they appear to be matching up on a superficial physical level which is not true love.
Right, on the conditional level. When we only love someone when conditions are a certain way, we aren't really loving them, are we? We are loving the way conditions make us feel, which is self indulgent and potentially destructive. Never the less, it's more fun having some people around than others. Some folks are such downers.
The pain of separation is there to serve a purpose in that it is our own higher self guiding our lower self back to true love self which is totally whole, complete and without condition.
So we are guided back to true love self which is whole complete, and without condition? If there is such a condition (without condition), why would anyone ever walk out on such a thing? No one ever would, right? You can't really go back, just realize you never left type thing.

I also am not totally fluent on this higher self concept. I'm just saying a higher self that guides a lower self to a true love self through pain brings up notions of a punishing God that knows what's good for ya.

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