How can we know there's no death

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dijmart
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:14 am

TemporalDissonance wrote:
So to be clear we are on the same page, what is this Self you are referring to? Is it Consciousness or that before Consciousness from which it came?
It is the absolute which is prior to consciousness.
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dijmart
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:24 am

TemporalDissonance wrote:
I understand what you mean. But I am finding myself asking more and more questions... It's like getting a gadget as a kid and wanting to pull it apart to figure out how things work. :lol:
Ah, so explore the answers, if you can find any. I have and have a loose understanding that was sufficient for the mind to relax. Ultimately, it (the afterlife) is just a continuation of the dream, the play of consciousness itself...it serves to continue the play.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

dijmart
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:35 am

Nomember wrote:
dijmart wrote:
Um, you are the Self, that's fundamentally what you ARE appearing to appear as a human being....forgetting what you are naturally. Thoughts, feelings, emotions come and go through the form and can be felt fully in the moment they arise without an invitation to stay and cause misery.
I think maybe the reason they appear in the first place is because we are un-knowingly attracting them into our reality. If we don't invite them in we may be missing out on a very important lesson they are trying to teach us. Emotions can be our guide from beyond showing us something we need to learn about ourself perhaps?
Do they really need a reason to appear? Or is that just a thought? What is your next thought going to be? Don't know right? So if you aren't creating your thoughts for a greater purpose then where are they arising from? And for whom? What are you between the thoughts you think you have? Have you disappeared? Are you just the "thinker" or is there more to you? Are you aware when the mind is still and thought free, who is this one that is aware if the thinker isn't present?

Enquire, enquire, enquire!
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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:42 am

dijmart wrote:Ah, so explore the answers, if you can find any. I have and have a loose understanding that was sufficient for the mind to relax. Ultimately, it (the afterlife) is just a continuation of the dream, the play of consciousness itself...it serves to continue the play.
Who said you can't? More importantly, how do we know for certain there aren't any contradictions?

The afterlife may be a continuation of a "dream", but isn't it apathy to just throw our hands up and say "such is, now I am going back to bed"?
I would suggest this is more of the mind's way of tricking oneself into lethargy rather than a genuine desire for Truth.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:51 am

dijmart wrote:
Nomember wrote:
dijmart wrote:
Um, you are the Self, that's fundamentally what you ARE appearing to appear as a human being....forgetting what you are naturally. Thoughts, feelings, emotions come and go through the form and can be felt fully in the moment they arise without an invitation to stay and cause misery.
I think maybe the reason they appear in the first place is because we are un-knowingly attracting them into our reality. If we don't invite them in we may be missing out on a very important lesson they are trying to teach us. Emotions can be our guide from beyond showing us something we need to learn about ourself perhaps?
Do they really need a reason to appear? Or is that just a thought? What is your next thought going to be? Don't know right? So if you aren't creating your thoughts for a greater purpose then where are they arising from? And for whom? What are you between the thoughts you think you have? Have you disappeared? Are you just the "thinker" or is there more to you? Are you aware when the mind is still and thought free, who is this one that is aware if the thinker isn't present?

Enquire, enquire, enquire!
Yes, where are your throughs arising from... and more importantly from WHOM? You may not be the mind's chatter box... but thoughts themselves aren't just magically popping up everywhere either....

It's like climbing up a mountain, climbing up your perspective changes. More importantly, you would have to ditch your belongings to get higher.

dijmart
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:06 am

TemporalDissonance wrote:
Who said you can't? More importantly, how do we know for certain there aren't any contradictions?

The afterlife may be a continuation of a "dream", but isn't it apathy to just throw our hands up and say "such is, now I am going back to bed"?
I would suggest this is more of the mind's way of tricking oneself into lethargy rather than a genuine desire for Truth.
Misunderstandings is one of the things that detour me from posting here. Its exhausting..lol. Endless mis-understandings.

To answer your other question...thoughts arise from the Self, for the Self, as there is ONLY the Self!

Peace out.
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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:03 am

dijmart wrote:
TemporalDissonance wrote:
Who said you can't? More importantly, how do we know for certain there aren't any contradictions?

The afterlife may be a continuation of a "dream", but isn't it apathy to just throw our hands up and say "such is, now I am going back to bed"?
I would suggest this is more of the mind's way of tricking oneself into lethargy rather than a genuine desire for Truth.
Misunderstandings is one of the things that detour me from posting here. Its exhausting..lol. Endless mis-understandings.

To answer your other question...thoughts arise from the Self, for the Self, as there is ONLY the Self!

Peace out.
I don't think there is a misunderstanding per sae.... :) I just don't agree....and I stand firm on my position. Call it ego, etc. if you like.

And taking the ultimate perspective of the Self is really limiting..., it has given us a crutch to never enquire any more. It's like taking the Self and eliminating everything that the Self has created and assume it's all just a dream.....

And on that note, I suppose we can say that very Self sent us thoughts to disagree :)

dijmart
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:25 am

Talk about misunderstanding..wow. I wrote an extremely long reply and it got wiped out. Sorry, maybe another time, but it's bed time now.
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Onceler
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Onceler » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:36 pm

Hmmm. There was a Sparrow that contributed to the Sun magazine many years ago. I wonder if it's the same guy? Rather wise back then, if I recall correctly.
Be present, be pleasant.

dijmart
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:13 pm

Ok, this is not going to be the same reply I was going to make last night, because that was deleted unfortunately. Anyways, I wasn't saying you can't explore the afterlife, no I said "explore" it actually. So why you went into " who said you cant" and talk about "isn't it apathy to not" is beyond me. I was just saying I've explored it and my findings are that it's consciousness continuing the play. There are probably spirits in the afterlife holding satsang there for those who still don't know who/what they truly are.

As to the Self, you don't seem to have an understanding of what I'm referring to, therefore judging my comments as being limiting. The Self or absolute is the only real reality there is, everything stems from that. Consciousness arises from the Self. Everything you perceive is the play of consciousness. When you think you are a person and not the Self you are dreaming. When you understand everything is the Self, including you , then all you see is the Self interacting with the Self. Since there is only one Self, always.

Things, people, the world are seen through a subject-object relationship because we think we are individuals, but really all is subject only. All is one. Things, people, world are appearing to appear as seperate, but can not be, because the one Self is doing all of it. I'm not saying there is not a human here typing these words. I'm saying the Self through consciousness is appearing to appear as a human named dijmart that is playing a role in the divine play, but I know that it's a play, therefore thoughts are losing there stickiness and not believed at face value anymore. Emotions, thoughts and feelings come and go, so can not be what I am, what I am does not come or go, but is always here. Still, peaceful and present. Compassion is not lost, if anything it is stronger, because everything is what I am. There is no hanging out in lala land as you may think, no that's not necessary. There is a character here that will continue on with life and it's challenges, but with a different perspective and understanding.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

Enlightened2B
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Enlightened2B » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:41 pm

I think one of the reasons I've had such a tough time in the notion of "Consciousness is All" thing is because I've always associated the term "consciousness" with a brain (not that I believe it's limited to a brain), but there's too much association with consciousness and brain in general. So, I think many people confuse solipsism with non-duality, because of that notion.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that-Martin Luther King
Light is all there is. Light merely IS what IS. Light IS Love. Consciousness is an ASPECT of Light/Love.
Awareness becomes consciousness when it has an object. The object changes all the time. In consciousness there is movement; Awareness by Itself is motionless and timeless, here and now.-Nisargadatta
But even so, perhaps there IS nothing ultimately happening. As I quote the author of the article I posted earlier in the thread.
There is a valid recognition that, at the ultimate level, nothing happens. That is not really our concern while we are here, appearing and engaged in this realm or vibrational frequency, however. Rather, our job here is to directly realize that love is all that matters, and then to embody the implications of that recognition in our conduct and relationships.
and if I can add to this quote....most importantly....emobody that with OURSELVES. :D

the key master
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by the key master » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:14 pm

TemporalDissonance wrote:
dijmart wrote:Ah, so explore the answers, if you can find any. I have and have a loose understanding that was sufficient for the mind to relax. Ultimately, it (the afterlife) is just a continuation of the dream, the play of consciousness itself...it serves to continue the play.
Who said you can't? More importantly, how do we know for certain there aren't any contradictions?

The afterlife may be a continuation of a "dream", but isn't it apathy to just throw our hands up and say "such is, now I am going back to bed"?
I would suggest this is more of the mind's way of tricking oneself into lethargy rather than a genuine desire for Truth.
Something still exists to register motion and contemplate change and what that is is not a changing person, clearly. Nevertheless, the illusion of being a changing person that can register change as a separate mind persists. It is the illusion of being something other than, consciousness.

I trust that when my time in form is up an opportunity to explore the death experience will unfold however it is oriented to do so. With regard to the living, I think most can see how the energetic rollover of the death experience can influence life hereinafter. Some might refer to this as spirit influence which leads to ideas about a spirit world and places that emotional energy can populate without needing a body to populate it with. There's probably even a few people who could teach you what these places look like and how to get to them in spirit form before you die. And there are probably quite a few others who could caution against getting lost in such exploration because of the seek and find dynamic leading to a disassociated zombie spirit identity or a walking dead disorder.

I don't really see the disagreement, but rather, attention being placed on different ends of the spectrum of experience. Seeing through the illusion of separation and exploring how that illusion plays out in form can be two crumbs to the same cookie.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:33 am

dijmart wrote:Ok, this is not going to be the same reply I was going to make last night, because that was deleted unfortunately. Anyways, I wasn't saying you can't explore the afterlife, no I said "explore" it actually. So why you went into " who said you cant" and talk about "isn't it apathy to not" is beyond me. I was just saying I've explored it and my findings are that it's consciousness continuing the play. There are probably spirits in the afterlife holding satsang there for those who still don't know who/what they truly are.
Ahh yes, then it perhaps was a misunderstanding. :)
dijmart wrote:Ah, so explore the answers, if you can find any. I have and have a loose understanding that was sufficient for the mind to relax. Ultimately, it (the afterlife) is just a continuation of the dream, the play of consciousness itself...it serves to continue the play.
Please understand that "...if you can find any" reminded me of many pseudo-Advaita/self-enquiry rhetoric such as "you are already enlightened" so you knowing that you are, you are already it and no need to do anything etc. Initially it didn't sound like there were explorations, hence my response.
dijmart wrote:As to the Self, you don't seem to have an understanding of what I'm referring to, therefore judging my comments as being limiting. The Self or absolute is the only real reality there is, everything stems from that. Consciousness arises from the Self. Everything you perceive is the play of consciousness. When you think you are a person and not the Self you are dreaming. When you understand everything is the Self, including you , then all you see is the Self interacting with the Self. Since there is only one Self, always.
I think this is where we part ways (at least for the moment). While I agree that Consciousness arises from the Self and even using the same definitions provided, my findings suggest that it is a little bit more complicated, perhaps even slightly different than the model of reality provide or the possibility is there. Hence I was asking what your definitions are before to ensure we are talking about the same thing.
dijmart wrote: Things, people, the world are seen through a subject-object relationship because we think we are individuals, but really all is subject only. All is one. Things, people, world are appearing to appear as seperate, but can not be, because the one Self is doing all of it. I'm not saying there is not a human here typing these words. I'm saying the Self through consciousness is appearing to appear as a human named dijmart that is playing a role in the divine play, but I know that it's a play, therefore thoughts are losing there stickiness and not believed at face value anymore. Emotions, thoughts and feelings come and go, so can not be what I am, what I am does not come or go, but is always here. Still, peaceful and present. Compassion is not lost, if anything it is stronger, because everything is what I am. There is no hanging out in lala land as you may think, no that's not necessary. There is a character here that will continue on with life and it's challenges, but with a different perspective and understanding.
Thanks dijmart, I remember when I first started on this forum, someone asked a similar question to me: Is this something you know or something you know through teachings?

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by TemporalDissonance » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:46 am

the key master wrote:
TemporalDissonance wrote:
dijmart wrote:Ah, so explore the answers, if you can find any. I have and have a loose understanding that was sufficient for the mind to relax. Ultimately, it (the afterlife) is just a continuation of the dream, the play of consciousness itself...it serves to continue the play.
Who said you can't? More importantly, how do we know for certain there aren't any contradictions?

The afterlife may be a continuation of a "dream", but isn't it apathy to just throw our hands up and say "such is, now I am going back to bed"?
I would suggest this is more of the mind's way of tricking oneself into lethargy rather than a genuine desire for Truth.
Something still exists to register motion and contemplate change and what that is is not a changing person, clearly. Nevertheless, the illusion of being a changing person that can register change as a separate mind persists. It is the illusion of being something other than, consciousness.

I trust that when my time in form is up an opportunity to explore the death experience will unfold however it is oriented to do so. With regard to the living, I think most can see how the energetic rollover of the death experience can influence life hereinafter. Some might refer to this as spirit influence which leads to ideas about a spirit world and places that emotional energy can populate without needing a body to populate it with. There's probably even a few people who could teach you what these places look like and how to get to them in spirit form before you die. And there are probably quite a few others who could caution against getting lost in such exploration because of the seek and find dynamic leading to a disassociated zombie spirit identity or a walking dead disorder.

I don't really see the disagreement, but rather, attention being placed on different ends of the spectrum of experience. Seeing through the illusion of separation and exploring how that illusion plays out in form can be two crumbs to the same cookie.

Thanks key master. I would hope that if one chooses to explore, one wouldn't get lost and be a zombie spirit :)

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smiileyjen101
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:57 am

key master said: With regard to the living, I think most can see how the energetic rollover of the death experience can influence life hereinafter. Some might refer to this as spirit influence which leads to ideas about a spirit world and places that emotional energy can populate without needing a body to populate it with.

There's probably even a few people who could teach you what these places look like and how to get to them in spirit form before you die.

And there are probably quite a few others who could caution against getting lost in such exploration because of the seek and find dynamic leading to a disassociated zombie spirit identity or a walking dead disorder.
And the first may be the same person as the second :wink:
all of our experiences uncover 'nuance' - the bits we don't understand until we're in them.

(Was just thinking about you KM, wondering how you are doing and here you are - nice to see you posting :D )

Energy is ... eternal in various forms.
Our experiences (interactions in, with, by and as energy in different compositions of elements) constitute which frequencies of it we 'notice', (light or not, eternal or temporary, imho)
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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