How can we know there's no death

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Rick
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Rick » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:07 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
ashley72 wrote:That's ok if you don't think I nearly died. I don't think a near death experience is the same as permanent death anyway. That's my point... its an experience we can talk about later.... permanent death is an irreversible process.... so there is no return from such an event.
This is still a strawman argument. Our discussion is not about those who do not return to their physical focus, it's about those that do - those that have a conscious experience, do to the loss of bodily viability, that transcends the body and return to report on their experience. There is no debate on whether these experiences take place, only some consideration on their true nature.

WW

I have not read extensively the accounts of near death experiences but I have read a couple of hand fulls recently. I am no expert by any means. But what I noted was that there was always a kind of "door" or "portal" through which the "person" was either given a choice to pass through or not (which meant no going back if they did) or they were denied outright passage through to a "beyond" even as it was clear to them that there was a highly desirable "beyond", which some reported as being of unspeakable love. It seems as though, in the cases I've read, that "life no longer as a person on earth" would only be permanent and irreversible only if they passed through the "portal". So, setting aside the question of choice, my question is, is this the case in all NDE's? That there is a clear seeing, from where ever they are, of a beyond from which there is no return if passed through?
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Rick » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm

Webwanderer wrote: There is no debate on whether these experiences take place, only some consideration on their true nature.

WW
Not sure if you all missed it or not when I posted it, but in the case of the 11 year old boy having a NDE, which I found interesting, in conversation with the "old man" he met "there", the "old man" said the following to him when asked about where he was:

"This place is in your mind's eye, your imagination; it is as it is because this is exactly what you need it to be. Your physical crisis and mental need caused it to be just as you perceive it. I am here too without a physical body. You see me as I see myself in my own mind's eye. A mental picture (a thought) from my mind to your mind's eye. I am as you see me because this is the way that I perceived that you needed me to be. Who I am or my name is not important. I am here for you on behalf of your heavenly Father's love for you and to remind you from where you came."
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:04 pm

Rick wrote:I have not read extensively the accounts of near death experiences but I have read a couple of hand fulls recently. I am no expert by any means. But what I noted was that there was always a kind of "door" or "portal" through which the "person" was either given a choice to pass through or not (which meant no going back if they did) or they were denied outright passage through to a "beyond" even as it was clear to them that there was a highly desirable "beyond", which some reported as being of unspeakable love. It seems as though, in the cases I've read, that "life no longer as a person on earth" would only be permanent and irreversible only if they passed through the "portal". So, setting aside the question of choice, my question is, is this the case in all NDE's? That there is a clear seeing, from where ever they are, of a beyond from which there is no return if passed through?
It is common, but not universal. There are many levels, or degrees, of NDE's. There are many expressions of the 'return to the physical' event. Sometimes it's just a simple out of body awareness with no tunnel, no light, no spiritual being. There are lots of all types of experience.

WW

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by karmarider » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:08 pm

SandyJoy wrote:All is consciousness is no longer theories.
The science that you cite does not prove permanence of a soul and it does not prove one consciousness. I suggest that we don't need to stretch science to prove whatever it is what we see.

I see a sense of existence. I feel it, I know it, I am it. I can't prove it. I can't even describe it. I'm pretty confident that all other human beings also see it, though in some perhaps it is covered up by immediacy of the mind. But there is no science which proves the subjective experience of consciousness for me, and that doesn't really concern me.

I see the one consciousness which spiritual people talk about more simply as the interconnectedness and permeability of all life. Existence loves life; existence loves to experience through life.
While you'll eventually exit this particular reality, you will remain you. Since energy does not die, and the observer is pure energy and you are the observer you will forever continue in more and more 'nows.' Because Now is All There Is. Now is not going to die and you are this Now. Your consciousness will always be in the present. You will be you just as now. You are the perfect balance between the infinite past and the infinite future; all. I know that when we leave this dimension we will continue to have new adventures, we will meet new friends and we will rejoin our loved ones and find our old friends.
Another perspective is that I don't know this. What I think is that this particular mind-body configuration will cease one day. I don't know that "what I am" will really continue or not--I literally do not know, and I am not concerned because I am here. When Ramana said that "I am here" he did not mean it as I am here and now, I think he meant that I and here are equivalent. That's how I see it. I am completely comfortable with that, I can face up to the event called death and face up to possible oblivion and face up equally to some another possibility after death. It's all good. I do not fear the event called death, I don't know what will happen after it, and the knowing and not-knowing gives me the freedom to enjoy life right here and right now.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Rick » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:14 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Rick wrote:I have not read extensively the accounts of near death experiences but I have read a couple of hand fulls recently. I am no expert by any means. But what I noted was that there was always a kind of "door" or "portal" through which the "person" was either given a choice to pass through or not (which meant no going back if they did) or they were denied outright passage through to a "beyond" even as it was clear to them that there was a highly desirable "beyond", which some reported as being of unspeakable love. It seems as though, in the cases I've read, that "life no longer as a person on earth" would only be permanent and irreversible only if they passed through the "portal". So, setting aside the question of choice, my question is, is this the case in all NDE's? That there is a clear seeing, from where ever they are, of a beyond from which there is no return if passed through?
It is common, but not universal. There are many levels, or degrees, of NDE's. There are many expressions of the 'return to the physical' event. Sometimes it's just a simple out of body awareness with no tunnel, no light, no spiritual being. There are lots of all types of experience.

WW

So the bottom line is that there is either a choice or no choice to return, and all we know about are the ones who did not cross over permanently? Yes?
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:17 pm

rideforever wrote:I do this meditation where I visualise my body burning on a ghat, the body chars and turns black, then grey, and then the wind blows it away.
I love that--- I get it, totally---

Living right up close to death, knowing one day we are leaving, sooner or later---that is a good one to notice too. That keeps us bright and unafraid of life---and seeing so much about Life.

I don't like the ones I love to die, I can barely keep living when that happens -- I thought I would die too---but no --- I can't go with them---though I wanted to go with them---but I had too much more to do here, or at least that seemed to be the message I was left with.

I know how people really do die of a broken heart, I understand it---But the gods would not let that happen to me--- I have to stay here living with this broken heart, broken wide open really, broken open by Love so that the whole world flows through now--- and I do what I am here to do, while I am here, as best I can---I am still trying to live up to my calling most of the time, I get very lazy ---but my character is good, I can snap-to when I am needed to --- I am here.

I know my self, I know the delight I am, I love who I am and I like what I will take with me when I go. I like who God gave me to be, she is rather charming and adorable and funny, and and and I really like my own company. Very few get my sense of humor --I can only tell my jokes to myself now-- and I crack me up ROFL.

It's been a joy and such a relief to know we all have a perfect self, a real 'who we are'--- I know that my identity was given to me before this world was---Each of us is Divine and I am not limited to being this chunk of matter in time, knowing this is just without the shadow of a doubt.

Love is really the Truth and what Life is all about---that's what I know. Death can teach us so much about Life and that Love is the only answer, the only thing that really matters ---That is astounding and Glorious and Real.

The Beauty of Life is just so marvelous, the Love that Is Life is profound--- I feel the presence of God's Grace and Unbound Love with me always, now.

I hope I did not go off thread subject too much---but I will just trust there is a reason.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by karmarider » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:44 pm

SandyJoy wrote: Living right up close to death, knowing one day we are leaving, sooner or later---that is a good one to notice too. That keeps us bright and unafraid of life---and seeing so much about Life.
I can get behind this--though I thought you were saying something different before. I think the fear of death and the fear of life are the same thing. I can say in my experience the facing up to and being free of the fear of life does leads to the actuality that life is inherently satisfying, inherently bright.

And that's why I don't really see any conflict in the two perspectives of NDE. It seems to me that the people who have had direct experience with NDE or the people who are interested in it--do so because it can inform them about the fear of life or the fear of death--that's all very good. As with anything else, it's useful to be alert to assumptions, but I think it's a perfectly valid course of inquiry, if that's what we want.

Similarly, the people who want to stay with what they know in direct experience, are doing the same thing in a different way. We are all facing up to our fears, in one way or another.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:03 pm

Yes, KarmaRider, shining a light on 'what death is" or is not as the case may be-- helps us to know what Life is and what it is not--- and that Life includes this appearance of death, but that Life never dies---Life, at this juncture, includes the 'learning lessons' that we are given via the appearances of death, the pain of loss, and the experience of loved ones that die.

It's all here to teach us about the Truth and Reality. Which means, to show us Life Everlasting, and somehow those experiences do teach us this. Sometimes such a loss, can give us tremendous insight and revelation, if we let it.

When we lose a beloved one, we can see that the person, the identity, the real of us, who we are and always were and always will be, never dies---somehow it reveals that to us. Then we can live more open and unafraid of Life, knowing Life is All Love and all about looking for and discovering the Good in anything or everything.

We can also walk through the heart wrenching, painful loss of our loved ones, and yet, somehow, because it rips us wide open, we can feel and know they are still with us, that they are not gone or far off, that in many ways we find out they really are a part of us, our own self appearing 'out there' ---

Where did they go? I don't know, but I know Love is still here, I know Love never dies, I know I am this Love and this Love is All That Is---I know a few things that help make Life such a sweet trip.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by karmarider » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:19 pm

SandyJoy wrote:Yes, KarmaRider, shining a light on 'what death is" or is not as the case may be-- helps us to know what Life is and what it is not
...

Where did they go? I don't know, but I know Love is still here, I know Love never dies, I know I am this Love and this Love is All That Is---I know a few things that help make Life such a sweet trip.
That's how I see it--which is why it confuses me when we develop sophisticated theories about consciousness, oneness, death, after-life, non-duality, awareness and so on.

I see it as much simpler than all of that. Life can be inherently satisfying, it is already love. The thing that covers it up is fear.

I'm not denying possibilities and perspectives. It's fun to venture and learn. I have only the barest inkling of how the universe works. I'm sure there are many exciting possibilities. Maybe everything we conceive is simultaneously true.

But the thing we're after, the inherent satisfaction of life, the seeing that there is no distance between me and life and no distance between me and you--well, I see that as much simpler than many of these theories might suggest.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:45 pm

Rick wrote: So the bottom line is that there is either a choice or no choice to return, and all we know about are the ones who did not cross over permanently? Yes?
My sense is that yes there is sometimes a choice, but I do not completely understand what the criteria is for who and under what circumstances choice is available. It may be that there is more for that 'soul' to do - that they had originally chosen to do - in terms of gathering experience for consciousness evolution. It may be that they have done enough but could continue for the sake of loved ones. It seems there is variety in the factors of choice.

As to the ones who crossed over permanently, we may here from them as well. The night my father died he showed up in a dream more vivid and memorable than any other and told me that he was okay, and to tell everyone 'I'm okay'. Discount it if you will, but my sister in law had a dream the night her father passed telling her the same thing in almost the exact same words. This was decades apart and she knew nothing of my experience. I've since heard two more accounts of almost exactly the same experience from others.

Then there are the NDE'rs who meet friends and family members who died before their experience - sometimes even family members they did not personally know or were too young to remember.

There is a great deal to be explored within this phenomena. I don't recommend believing anything. Just be open to the possibility and let picture develop.

WW

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:29 pm

Ash said: I had a NDE myself about five years ago around the time the agoraphobia condition appeared. I posted about it some while back. I thought I was going to have a cardiac arrest after a night of drugs & alcohol abuse. I obviously didn't died but the experience of maybe dying got as close as you probably can go mentally. I was lying on the floor of my bedroom going through the motions of having a cardiac arrest. It felt so incredibly real in that moment.
Ash you haven't explicitly said whether you actually did have a cardiac arrest, or if this experience was a very strong 'mimic' of one. In a cardiac arrest enzymes are released into the blood stream and can be measured for the intensity of the malfunctioning of the heart.

I appreciate the intensity of 'mimic' experiences and of panic responses. I've experienced 'mimic' symptoms that had doctors calling Code Blue in a hospital pre-op, but the symptoms were from an allergic reaction (to alfalfa of all things). It didn't scare me any less I can tell you, but this is totally different to the experience of totally leaving your body and operating in all consciousness free of the constraints and fears of the physical. I also had a similar experience to what you describe when I had a claustrophobia freak out while stuck in a tiny caravan during an intense tropical storm. I seriously thought I would die that night, my heart was pounding so hard and fast and loud I thought it would burst, and yes it was absolutely terrifying, but it's not the same as actually having no signs of life. Having no signs of life is totally, totally different.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:08 pm

Rick wrote:
So the bottom line is that there is either a choice or no choice to return, and all we know about are the ones who did not cross over permanently? Yes?

Webwanderer wrote: My sense is that yes there is sometimes a choice, but I do not completely understand what the criteria is for who and under what circumstances choice is available. It may be that there is more for that 'soul' to do - that they had originally chosen to do - in terms of gathering experience for consciousness evolution. It may be that they have done enough but could continue for the sake of loved ones. It seems there is variety in the factors of choice.

As to the ones who crossed over permanently, we may hear from them as well.
Rick, in my experience it was made very clear to me the 'portal' and my son's paternal grandmother being there in the vibration that she was in, which is kind of 'lower' frequency than others that were also there, was there not for me, but for my son. If I had insisted ....I'm not sure what would have happened :lol:

In my clair abilities, and my experience in the light explained the flow of energies so much more clearly for me, how higher frequency energies slow down to resonate at a frequency that can be interpreted in our energy fields. What is described as really vivid dreams - they of course cannot completely materialise, but they can do a pretty good energy impression of it. These dreams are always described as more real than normal dreams, and always have a residue energy impact on us, of 'truth'. It's because the energy of love is real, is eternally real, when it flows through the portals from one dimension to another it is innately recognised as such.


The notions of those who are out of body and have not gone directly into the light is also real. Whatever prevents them from doing so is individual. I know I'm going to sound la-la now, but in many ways (except for some of the dramatics) things like the main character in Ghost, and the Ghost Whisperer, are correct. In my experiences I've had encounters with very few that have not crossed over (four, two I know crossed over at a later time, two I have no idea) and many many (hundreds if not now thousands) with those who have gone into the light and have chosen to - to a degree reform / resonate at the frequency and with kind of like an open energy field of the memories of their experiences and personalities while in form in order to share something with someone still in form.

Now in science this is even harder to prove, but the proof (for me) is in the accuracy and the 'spirit' in which this personality and memory of experiences is communicated and shared. Oh, and I've had one authenticated from an embryo that was terminated but was still 'linked' by love to her mother, who in the first instance was adamant she'd never had a daughter, even though the message for her was bang on and helpful in her present circumstances. At the time I was participating in development and understanding stuff, testing the accuracy and willingly, consciously allowing myself to be a guided 'medium' through which these communications could be shared. This one with the embryo was amazing in terms of I can describe what they share of 'who they were' characteristics, resonances, memories, and knowledge, this one was incredible in terms of pure love - with my mentor I was saying it's as if she never had a thought, never 'sinned', never lived - and because I knew the pure resonance of my son's spirit, she was even purer and I had no thing to measure it against. In my logical reasoning I wondered whether this was what one born without a brain might feel like, in the light of the mother's denial and yet in the persistence of this amazing little ball of twinkling pure love, I could not let it go. She gave more and more 'proof' of things in her mother's life and in the reason she wanted her mother to know that she loved her absolutely, and still the mother denied her existence, saying that she'd only had two sons.

In levels of energy this entity was an absolute delight. Because it was a development thing we were at liberty to discuss and compare energies in a sort of side conversation and my mentor was somewhat stumped to explain it too. For me I 'knew' this child had 'never really lived', in even less of a way than my own son had. He had far more 'experience' of the physical relative to this one. Now the messages she was conveying were sweet, and practical, and confirmed by her mother.

After the session I couldn't let it go, I needed to understand this child. There was no doubt in my mind, body, spirit that there was a link with this woman, and that this woman was both accepting the message, and denying the entity. I went over to her and said, I am really sorry, this is a new energy level for me and yet she is so pure and so insistent are you sure you never had a daughter. She said again, no I only had two sons. Then she said "I did have an abortion, and that was a girl, but I've always felt wretched about it, she wouldn't love me like that."

:shock:

umm, yes she does.
It amazed me no end, both the insistence of the child entity and the denial of the mother. The child had shared really specific information about her mother sadly playing a jewellery box music thing and how close the child came to her in love and joy - really really sprinkly, incredible of the most innocent love, she detailed how she was loving her mother when this male figure was being really mean to her mother, how she was sharing her energies of love with her mother to give her strength and courage and to know how worthy of love and respect she was - all of it wrapped up in the remorse that the child was trying to tell her she need not feel, the capacity of unconditional love and the okayness of all choices...

I asked the mother again because she'd said yes about sitting playing the jewellery box, she said she bought it because if she had kept the girl child she would have given it to her - she bought it for the daughter she denied having and would play it whenever she thought about her choice.

I have shared many, many messages and helped many people understand many things, even mysteries of someone's death made clear, but bridging this gap between absolute pure love, absolute pure love and this woman with a hardening of fear and guilt and shame.... how she would not allow herself to feel her daughter's love. It remains one of my most humbling experiences. When I went back to discuss it with my mentor it made everything I'd been saying about the energy make so much sense.

If only people could truly accept how powerful love really is.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:23 pm

As an aside, I often wonder if sometimes blind people wonder if everyone else is just making up that they can see, and the things they claim to be able to see.

What is outside of our experience is sometimes hard to accept.

But as webby notes the truth has a resonance that sets itself apart, even if you can't explain it or prove it to everyone else.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:38 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Ash said: I had a NDE myself about five years ago around the time the agoraphobia condition appeared. I posted about it some while back. I thought I was going to have a cardiac arrest after a night of drugs & alcohol abuse. I obviously didn't died but the experience of maybe dying got as close as you probably can go mentally. I was lying on the floor of my bedroom going through the motions of having a cardiac arrest. It felt so incredibly real in that moment.
Ash you haven't explicitly said whether you actually did have a cardiac arrest, or if this experience was a very strong 'mimic' of one. In a cardiac arrest enzymes are released into the blood stream and can be measured for the intensity of the malfunctioning of the heart.
Ramana Maharshi had an intense experience of death in his seventeenth year. His is own experience of death seems to mimic my own experience of death that night. The main difference between his experience & mine... was he surrendered to the fear of death, whereas i didn't surrender to the fear... and as a result my ego identity was transformed into an agoraphobic, whereas he awakened completely & dis-identified with his thinking mind or ego.

Here is linking which talks about Ramana's own mental experience of death & dying.
http://luthar.com/on-death-and-dying-wo ... -maharshi/

I think Ramana's testimony is fairly accurate based on my own experience. But we must be clear that Ramana didn't physically die... his mental identification with his physical body died that night... that is self evident.

What was interesting about my dying experience was my mental fight for life. I really didn't want to die from a drug overdose because of the shame of such a death. which is why I didn't surrender to the fear of dying. A sure sign my identification the the thinking mind was still very strong.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:36 am

ashley72 wrote:
That's ok if you don't think I nearly died. I don't think a near death experience is the same as permanent death anyway. That's my point... its an experience we can talk about later.... permanent death is an irreversible process.... so there is no return from such an event.
And the response was...
Webwanderer wrote: This is still a strawman argument.
My position is that clinical death is not equal to permanent death. You're implying that clinical death is exactly the same as permanent death. The body of evidence is on my side.... and now you say I'm putting forward a strawman argument.

Clearly the body of evidence supports the notion that permanent death is irreversible... is this fundamental fact still in question here? I'm mean if it wasn't I'm sure we would all know about it by now! Clinical death is a reversible process, the body of evidence would support that. Is that in question still?

If I'm correct on those last two arguments, I'm correct on the first. So who is calling who a strawman?

On the other hand, Ramana Maharashi experience of dying and dis-identification with the thinking mind is something which I can directly relate to. But let's be clear, he didn't physically die. His mental attachment to his physical form was severed by surrendering to the fear of death.
“The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to myself mentally, without actually framing the words: ‘Now that death has come; what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies . . . But with the death of the body am I dead? Is the body I? . . . The body dies but the Spirit that transcends it cannot be touched by death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.’ All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truth which I perceived directly. . . From that moment onwards the ‘I’ or Self focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death had vanished once and for all. Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time on.” - Ramana Maharashi

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