How can we know there's no death

[ashley72]

However, all these wonderful theories take me away from the HERE & NOW into the world of ideas and imagination.

I would just like to say to you Ash, that in the light of your many losses that you have this resolve to the present moment on your own authority when belief could offer a peace of sorts is in my experience reflective of an attitude of awakening.

What do you mean by saying... "belief could offer a peace of sorts"?

Why would attachment to thought identity offer a peace of sorts? & furthermore how would your thinking mind know if I'm not a peace in the present moment?

[smiileyjen101]

The difference is in the detail and in the effects Ash (content and process). You still haven't answered whether you actually and with evidence of enzymes in your systems had a cardiac arrest, or whether it was an intense response of your body to stimuli, and then of your mind in fear responses to that stimuli. All of which are absolutely clinically explainable and understandable in the circumstances. I

'm not arguing against what you experienced, or the calibre of it as an experience, I'm saying it's a different experience totally to what you are arguing against in terms of 'validated' near death experiences as science explores them.

Did you have this experience of knowing - while in the experience -

The body dies but the Spirit that transcends it cannot be touched by death.

That means I am the deathless Spirit.’ All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truth which I perceived directly. . .

From that moment onwards the ‘I’ or Self focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination.

Fear of death had vanished once and for all.
Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time on.” - Ramana Maharashi

Did you come out of your experience knowing you are the 'deathless spirit'?

Did you also come out of your experience in the state that 'Fear of death had vanished once and for all.'

[ashley72]

I do this meditation where I visualise my body burning on a ghat, the body chars and turns black, then grey, and then the wind blows it away.

I would advise you to do the same. And meet death, face death, approach death. It is best to be prepared for what I imagine is a painful time for people who are so massively unprepared.

What good is all the talk.

You don't really want to know, that's why you talk.

Based on all your responses to my posts, I detect a lack of presence on your part. If you care to pay full attention to my written words... there won't be such a disconnect going on between us.

[ashley72]

The difference is in the detail and in the effects Ash (content and process). You still haven't answered whether you actually and with evidence of enzymes in your systems had a cardiac arrest, or whether it was an intense response of your body to stimuli, and then of your mind in fear responses to that stimuli. All of which are absolutely clinically explainable and understandable in the circumstances. I

'm not arguing against what you experienced, or the calibre of it as an experience, I'm saying it's a different experience totally to what you are arguing against in terms of 'validated' near death experiences as science explores them.

Did you have this experience of knowing - while in the experience -

The body dies but the Spirit that transcends it cannot be touched by death.

That means I am the deathless Spirit.’ All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truth which I perceived directly. . .

From that moment onwards the ‘I’ or Self focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination.

Fear of death had vanished once and for all.
Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time on.” - Ramana Maharashi

Did you come out of your experience knowing you are the 'deathless spirit'?

Did you also come out of your experience in the state that 'Fear of death had vanished once and for all.'

Based on all my responses... don't you see the irony in questioning whether my near-death-experience was near enough?

Furthermore do you comprehend what Ramana Maharashi's own near-death-experience at 17 points to? I'll help out... death of identification with the thought "I am this body".

[Webwanderer]

You're implying that clinical death is exactly the same as permanent death.

No, I'm not. And no matter how many times you claim it so, it won't change. You added 'permanent' to the death conversation. I'm saying that NDE's, not the fear of possible death that you suggest is the same, offers a glimpse of what awaits when one experiences death.

The body of evidence is on my side....

Only in your imagination.

Clearly the body of evidence supports the notion that permanent death is irreversible... is this fundamental fact still in question here?

Okay, so you agree then that death may be reversible in some instances, but just not 'permanent' death? This is the strawman that you have created. No one had issue with whether death can be permanent. Of course it can.

Permanent certainly means permanent, otherwise it wouldn't be permanent. Permanent was never part of the discussion until you needed it to maintain your argument. Now, there is only a certain context where even this applies in my view. As life has no opposite, there can be no death, except in terms of an experience of transition from the physical focus of consciousness. In that context permanent death is an irrelevant term because it refers to a condition that cannot exist. All life is One, therefore no life can be dead.

The thread is originally about how we can know that there is no death. NDE's offer considerable insight toward our understanding of what happens.

Interjecting that no one comes back from permanent death is just a distraction from what NDE offers in potential understanding.

WW

[Webwanderer]

Furthermore do you comprehend what Ramana Maharashi's own near-death-experience at 17 points to? I'll help out... death of identification with the thought "I am this body".

Apples and oranges. That is a completely different conversation.

WW

[SandyJoy]

Too good to get lost in this thread---so I re-posted it.

As life has no opposite, there can be no death, except in terms of an experience of transition from the physical focus of consciousness. In that context permanent death is an irrelevant term because it refers to a condition that cannot exist. All life is One, therefore no life can be dead.

Thank you! This is the essence of what we are all trying to tell about here; the experiences of our own or the stories of others experiences of this marvelous and mystical transition that leaves us knowing so much more about our Real Self and The Everlasting Grace and Intelligence of God we are part of.

[smiileyjen101]

Based on all my responses... don't you see the irony in questioning whether my near-death-experience was near enough?

I do see where you're coming from Ash, I was trying to establish if we are or are not speaking about the same thing. I would not presume to answer for you, the query was genuine curiousity.

In my understanding of it, NDE in the now accepted use of the term is not about
- the death of thoughts, or identification with thoughts;
- or the shock with impending death or trauma through physical symptoms;
- or panic or fear or remorse of a life not lived fully;
- or about the impact on a person in grief and again shock of others' passing / dying ;

it is about the first hand experience and the ability to prove elements of it - of existence of continued consciousness outside of a functioning physical body and the effects that that experience has on the experiencer.

I do understand you validating things according to your knowledge and I do accept your experience as you have detailed it.

I have also experienced very similar things to the ones you detail while still in a physical functioning (if scarily at times) body, whether there was any real immediate 'threat' to my 'physical life' or not - and in some of them yes there was, but not in all of them. But this is not what I'm talking about when i refer to nde.

The nde I and others speak of has elements that are outside of these experiences. They are not imaginary, or outside of this moment - in fact the moments are more clear. I would actually prefer they term it an 'eternal life experience' because in some ways it's not about death at all. It's about seeing that death is not the end, nor was birth the beginning, not just in a 'thought' sense.

[DavidB]

Prior to the birth of the universe, there existed no time, no matter and no space.

I am prior to the birth of the universe.

I am form, I am formless, I am both, I am neither.

Don't think about it.

[Webwanderer]

Here is a wonderful NDE that towards the end points to our purpose in human life. Very well presented from a woman who it is easy to tell is speaking from her direct experience. About 6 minutes. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7swq9XnQyXY&feature=plcp

WW

[randomguy]

The thread is originally about how we can know that there is no death. NDE's offer considerable insight toward our understanding of what happens.

An avenue of 'how can we know' has been presented. It is a gain in understanding, a way to know more about death.

To a view with separation, death is a big thing because there is along with this view perhaps an attachment to the uniqueness or specialness of an individualized being that allows a confusion that it is somehow a good notion that it or some aspect of it would last forever in time, but notice that death is a big thing only in thought. To the not-separate as-reality, death is nothing because you know (in the non-conceptual knowing) that there is no separation from the eternal (eternal as in no-time as opposed to forever-time) no separation from the eternal source of the perception of time and all experience within it, that you are the seeing and all that is seen.

I think the accounts of NDEs can possibly encourage trust in that consciousness is not bound to the body, trust that inspires finding this for oneself as this can also be seen first hand without an NDE.

Don't think about it.

[Rick]

There is a great deal to be explored within this phenomena. I don't recommend believing anything. Just be open to the possibility and let picture develop.

I agree it is interesting.

But what did you think about the 11 year old boy's account in which a "man" he met there told him:

"This place (where you are at, out of your body) is in your mind's eye, your imagination; it is as it is because this is exactly what you need it to be. Your physical crisis and mental need caused it to be just as you perceive it. I am here too without a physical body. You see me as I see myself in my own mind's eye. A mental picture (a thought) from my mind to your mind's eye. I am as you see me because this is the way that I perceived that you needed me to be. Who I am or my name is not important. I am here for you on behalf of your heavenly Father's love for you and to remind you from where you came."

[rideforever]

Is this thread going anywhere ?

You all engage with Ashley on the basis that he is listening. He isn't. He ignores anything you say that might wake him up, or changes the subject.

I wouldn't take anything he says at face value, it's all a way of avoiding the obvious.

He enjoys it this way.

[Webwanderer]

I agree it is interesting.

But what did you think about the 11 year old boy's account in which a "man" he met there told him:

"This place (where you are at, out of your body) is in your mind's eye, your imagination; it is as it is because this is exactly what you need it to be. Your physical crisis and mental need caused it to be just as you perceive it. I am here too without a physical body. You see me as I see myself in my own mind's eye. A mental picture (a thought) from my mind to your mind's eye. I am as you see me because this is the way that I perceived that you needed me to be. Who I am or my name is not important. I am here for you on behalf of your heavenly Father's love for you and to remind you from where you came."

I think the 'man' was creating a mental environment that would be acceptable to the boy. The boy still had a human point of reference and needed the familiarity of something that made sense in that context. It certainly doesn't take anything away from the underlying reality of the experience.

WW

[Rick]

I agree it is interesting.

But what did you think about the 11 year old boy's account in which a "man" he met there told him:

"This place (where you are at, out of your body) is in your mind's eye, your imagination; it is as it is because this is exactly what you need it to be. Your physical crisis and mental need caused it to be just as you perceive it. I am here too without a physical body. You see me as I see myself in my own mind's eye. A mental picture (a thought) from my mind to your mind's eye. I am as you see me because this is the way that I perceived that you needed me to be. Who I am or my name is not important. I am here for you on behalf of your heavenly Father's love for you and to remind you from where you came."

I think the 'man' was creating a mental environment that would be acceptable to the boy. The boy still had a human point of reference and needed the familiarity of something that made sense in that context. It certainly doesn't take anything away from the underlying reality of the experience.

WW

But the more interesting point was he said that it was all happening within the Imagination, or Minds Eye, as he called it. It is interesting to note that in other accounts, the persons religion, culture, environment and previous experiences were represented in the "place" they came to when the body was left behind for a time.

Since you have more knowledge about these things, a question I would ask is: are there any accounts of the Self-realized, Awakened having such experiences or are they limited to those whose identity is via mind identification?