How can we know there's no death

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6810
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:46 pm

Rick wrote:But the more interesting point was he said that it was all happening within the Imagination, or Minds Eye, as he called it. It is interesting to note that in other accounts, the persons religion, culture, environment and previous experiences were represented in the "place" they came to when the body was left behind for a time.

Since you have more knowledge about these things, a question I would ask is: are there any accounts of the Self-realized, Awakened having such experiences or are they limited to those whose identity is via mind identification?
On the imagination issue, my take is that all appearances take place within imagination. Imagination it seems, is the fundamental tool of creativity. That doesn't mean one is 'lost' in it as happens in a human context. That being said, it doesn't mean one cannot be lost in imagination even outside the physical human experience. It seems it's possible to create little worlds of experience, even hells, depending on the strength of one's self judgment and beliefs carried beyond the death of the body.

Consciousness in the larger sense has no limitations, so for the purpose of interactions with other 'unique perspectives' (self aware beings) there are unlimited possibilities available as format for that interaction depending on the needs and desires of the moment.

The 'places' that those in different cultures and backgrounds come to are no more places than with the boy and man. They are familiar conscious/mental environments that make sense to those coming from similar environments in their human lives. It's not always that way, just common. Many see Beings as orbs of light, yet feel their unique conscious beingness.

I don't know specifically of an already awakened human having a near death experience, but there are many who have awakened because of it. Ask Jen. I even read somewhere that Jesus had a NDE during complications of his birth. We know childhood NDE's are now common so it's not such a stretch considering Jesus' early clarity.

WW

User avatar
smiileyjen101
Posts: 3787
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:13 am

Rick that story you told about the boy and the man, out of body we can 'play' (well we do it in body too, but it's easier out of body to understand how it works) with the energy to create 'form' in the minds-eye of self, and with caution, others - illusions.

From my understanding sometimes if it is known a person is going back to their body, if there is just a trauma happening to the body and the soul leaves it, a 'scene' is created for their waiting by those who have come to care for them in the mean-time. Often this scene has personal significance and is easily accepted by the one who is temporarily out of their body.

With others it is not known if they will choose to return to their body. Gees this is hard to explain. It can influence us in this dimension too. The soul cannot lie so when the boy asked, he was told the truth.

I can go two ways here - I can tell you some really freaky funny and heartbreakingly touching stories, or I can refer you to a book - go the safe path :lol:

M Scott Peck - In Heaven As On Earth: A Vision of the Afterlife (Hyperion, 1996) ISBN 978-0-7868-8921-1
Has some very interesting elements. It's a work of fiction about a person that dies and the afterlife is exactly how he expected it - nothing. He's aware that it's nothing, as he's just laying there in the dark, so that's a bit of a conundrum.

Eventually he accepts that it's not quite nothing and so something/s start to show them self to him - according to his (acceptance of) knowledge. Free will in the sense of 'I would not presume to answer for you' really is absolute, even in death. Only as he started to accept things did they appear to him, or rather did his vibrationary level allow them to be seen / experienced by him.

I guess there are multiple parts of it, but it's like it's okay to be ignorant until you accept you're not, you can even keep lying to yourself and claim ignorance if you like, you will feel the resonance and the effects of that; it's okay to be looking for something in all the wrong places, it's okay to 'form' your existence however you think it is or want it to be.

You will be told by some form that is acceptable to you that it is you doing the choosing and that you can change your choosing at any time. The interesting thing about that is that it's the same here - we can choose how we 'view' our reality. We can cover ourselves up in layers and roles and think that's who we are and what we're experiencing - In Heaven as on Earth.

In parts its very funny, and in parts it's also sad in how people sometimes really believe they are the layers and elements of form. And how strong their beliefs that only their like kind would reach the place of their imagined Heaven and they will know only this until such time as they let go of those beliefs, all in their own time as they notice nuances of 'not quite right-ness'. He shows this by being given a tour of different 'silos' of belief, all separated from the 'whole' experience.

There is a woman who in life coated herself in layers of fat to protect herself in her fear of life. Her view of herself was this image, victim/fat lady. For as long as she resonantly held onto this image of herself, she held that energy to her, some would come and counsel her that there was far more she could experience, but she chose not - It's okay, we have eternity :wink:

Edit: I do realise this would be considered blasphemous and many other offences against many religious teachings, I do apologise if I have offended anyone. The 'just a very naughty little girl' is actually being very courteously restrained and circumspect in awareness of that.
Last edited by smiileyjen101 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

User avatar
smiileyjen101
Posts: 3787
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:42 am

ww said: I even read somewhere that Jesus had a NDE during complications of his birth. We know childhood NDE's are now common so it's not such a stretch considering Jesus' early clarity.
That would make all the sense in the world to me. (and it touches me).

There is a residual not fitting into the body energy, some understand it as 'personal space' and 'feel' when other energies interact with it, I guess it's what new-agers have coined 'aura'.

Somehow in nde returners this is incredibly charged energy, that interacts with other energies, even electrical energies in 'things' - light bulbs, street lights, computers, radios, watches, other people, I'm aware of it enough to apologise for mine at times :lol:

I want to tell you something - yesterday when I was responding in this thread I started typing something that would offer insight and it was about someone I met in the light and their relationships with people here. I'm extremely aware of what is not mine to tell, a sense of overstepping boundaries. As I started to tell that story I got a kind of 'nudge' of conscience - I didn't have all the parties' permission to share, and they may have been identifiable if people know me. I ignored the nudge thinking I was doing no harm, no one knows these people... so I'm typing away, all fingers on the keyboard -
the page starts to shut itself down and I'm looking at my fingers, making sure I haven't 'done' something...

I still thought.. I'm doing no harm
then my computer started logging me out.. and I still thought .. really?
then my computer shut itself down completely and turned itself off, and I laughed.. okay, I'm sorry, I won't tell that one.
I went outside - as I do when my energies start playing up like this and figured I'll use another example (hence the story about the woman and her daughter seemingly coming out of nowhere.)
When I got back inside my computer had restarted and was waiting for me to log back in. Strangely, when I scanned my 'conscience' while writing that story I 'sensed' approval - this lady and her daughter wanted people to know how powerful love is.

And no, I don't have a scheduled shut down / maintenance thing in the background of my computer. These sorts of things are 'pay attention' cues that energies are actively entwined and sometimes I should 'know better' than my behaviour suggests.

Wonder what Jesus would have done in our age with his energies :wink:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

karmarider
Posts: 2141
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:00 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by karmarider » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:37 am

Webwanderer wrote:Here is a wonderful NDE that towards the end points to our purpose in human life. Very well presented from a woman who it is easy to tell is speaking from her direct experience. About 6 minutes. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7swq9XnQyXY&feature=plcp

WW
Yes, I can see that her experience points to the truth that human life is a wonderful experience. If only we can let go of resistance.

Still, it doesn't necessarily inform me about an afterlife or something which is larger than my now-experience of life. It's very possible that what happened to her is similar to what happened to Eckhart Tolle. A highly stressful event collapsed her fear of life.

The NDE point of view is completely valid. I think for those who are interested, and certainly to those who have had personal experiences of near death, these stories and experiences can mean a much richer experience of life here and now.

Equally, it can't be hard to see the point of view which says I know only only what I know in my direct experience. I recognize the mind's proclivities and I recognize the obstacle which is the attachment to particular beliefs. I don't want to fool myself. What is that I truly, really know?

It don't really see these two perspectives as mutually exclusive. There really are no short cuts--whether we go through beliefs or against them, what must be done is to face up to the fear.

User avatar
Rick
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:30 pm

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Rick » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:10 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
but there are many who have awakened because of (NDEs).

WW
This is directed to WW and Jen.

As I said, I have not researched the NDE thing in very much detail at all, but I do not doubt it to be a true phenomenon that occurs.

I never had a NDE, but perhaps something close to one. I was 4 years old when my parents took me to a dentist. He put a gas mask over my face and next thing I knew I was in a world of incredible, brilliantly vivid dancing colors. I was disembodied, yet was in the midst of and surrounded by these quite beautiful colors...quite conscious, quite thrilled and quite spellbound by it. Within what seemed like no time at all I was back in the dentist chair in this world again. Hmmm.

But of what I did read of other's experiences, it seems rather than awakening from it, it was more that they got "religion" from it, as opposed to awakening.

When you say many awakened from their NDE, how are you defining awakening? and can you point me to any NDE stories where what you consider awakening to have occurred?
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6810
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:05 pm

No doubt the definition of awakening matters here. Awakening in my definition is a qualitative shift in perspective from thought identification to conscious awareness. A sense of self remains, but is no longer exclusively attached unexamined thoughts. There can be many awakenings in life as consciousness expands to ever more inclusive perspectives of understanding.

An awakening such as Tolle experienced is only one of many possibilities. Everyone is unique and awakenings may occur in different ways and in different contexts. Tolle was where he was in perspective when his awakening occurred. Others are in their own unique conscious conditions and may awake to different perspectives than did Tolle. It's the conscious expansion that matters in awakening, not so much the exact aspect of that expansion.

Here's a great list of NDE's to peruse. Awakening is not necessarily the focus as it is a more a description of the experience, but the life changing aspects due to a shift in perspective are obvious.

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives ... counts.htm

WW

User avatar
Rick
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:30 pm

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Rick » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:18 pm

Webwanderer wrote:No doubt the definition of awakening matters here...Tolle was where he was in perspective when his awakening occurred...Others are in their own unique conscious conditions and may awake to different perspectives than did Tolle.

WW
Hmmm. This is interesting. What does awaken to different perspectives mean? Can you give some examples that illustrate how three or four might have different perspectives from Tolle, or even from each other?
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6810
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:00 pm

Rick wrote:Hmmm. This is interesting. What does awaken to different perspectives mean? Can you give some examples that illustrate how three or four might have different perspectives from Tolle, or even from each other?
Well it's simple really. Did Krishnamurti awaken to the exact same context that did Tolle? Siddhartha? Jesus? Nisargadatta? De Mello? Adyashanti? Scores of others. Why do we see differences in their teachings? Is it because one is wrong and another right? Or is it because there is a difference in context? That they are just emphasizing the clarity of their perspective as it relates to the thought structures they awakened from.

I find comfort in my own unique life view. Not that it is right and others are wrong, but that it is how it unfolded and continues to unfold in relation to my background, my desires, and the insights that came to me in the process. We are all a work in progress.

WW

User avatar
SandyJoy
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:42 am

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by SandyJoy » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:55 pm

Webwanderer wrote:I find comfort in my own unique life view. Not that it is right and others are wrong, but that it is how it unfolded and continues to unfold in relation to my background, my desires, and the insights that came to me in the process. We are all a work in progress.
Oh that is just pure lovely-- when I read this, I said out loud to my self "wow, bless your heart!" That is so beautiful and so touches my soul.

Yes, exactly, it is so personal, so deeply personal, it has to be, in order to really mean anything to us. Then we can say it is ours, we did not get it from another, it is truly ours, so much ours, alone.

How else could we know and really know unless the awakening is totally personal, "made" just for us. When we get it, we can honestly say "It's mine, all mine", how else could it be if it were genuine. We cannot follow or copy anyone else. We can listen to them and that is why we always say 'they are pointing to it" ---But when the awakening is ours, it is real and honest and true to us.

It is 'life changing' to us, within us, we are moved, transformed -- Yours is yours, your awakening comes to you, and you cannot have another's. You are shown, directly, and you know-- you understand it, its just exclusive to you, made for you.

That is the Power of His Love, the Grace of God.

Then you have the genuine authority within you. It never leaves you, it is who you are-- It is yours, it belongs to you, you know and know you know, there is no doubt.

Of course, yes, and so it is. Thank you WW! That was just wonderful!
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

User avatar
SandyJoy
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:42 am

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by SandyJoy » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:42 pm

I am still thinking about this.

Apparently it is the most obvious things that go unsaid, but need to be said.

You know how you get those insights, those moments of such an almost visionary understanding of something, like a picture, you get a glimpse, a flash of seeing and you know the meaning of that glimmer, you see the Truth in away that is inexplicable, but totally yours.

Glimpses are direct, always personal and that is why we always say, "I can't put it into words" it is just 'seeing'.

The glimpses can come to all the time, if we are open and looking for "what is" ---the sincere heart seeks and finds. You get a very special glimpse that means something at a level deep within you, so authentic and real---it is not seen in words, it's not linear--- although it is good to try to put that Light into words and sometimes the words of another do 'cause' the glimpse, but it is ours when we get it.

The Knowledge comes precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little---and, it is all yours.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

User avatar
Rick
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:30 pm

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Rick » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:42 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Others are in their own unique conscious conditions and may awake to different perspectives than did Tolle.
Consciousness is One and the Same for Everything. I wasn't sure what you were saying here when you said others "may awake to different perspective" in their own unique conscious conditions. I just needed clarification.
Webwanderer wrote:
Rick wrote:Hmmm. This is interesting. What does awaken to different perspectives mean? Can you give some examples that illustrate how three or four might have different perspectives from Tolle, or even from each other?
Well it's simple really. Did Krishnamurti awaken to the exact same context that did Tolle? Siddhartha? Jesus? Nisargadatta? De Mello? Adyashanti? Scores of others. Why do we see differences in their teachings?
WW
I do not know De Mello so I can not speak to him. But of the others, they awakened to Presence, to the One Universal Mind, to Love. What they awakened to is the Absolute, which is the same Ground on Being for all...awakened or not. Those pointed to above know that they know. The only difference is in the earthly conditioning of the vessel, so to speak. The manner of speech, accents, the use of words, life stories, the use of parables from their everyday life to illustrate points, etc, may be totally unique to each, but at Heart there is no difference. They are One. The message is the same. "You are not your mind or your body" "Who you are is already the case" "Come out of your mind, be still, stop looking for identity in thoughts and discover your True Self beyond mind"

Same Source - Unique Expression
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6810
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:33 am

Rick wrote:What they awakened to is the Absolute,
I'm not sure you can make that case without some qualification. My sense is that what they awakened to was their perception of the Absolute. They were still in physical form so to some degree they were influenced by it. They came from varying cultures and were influenced by that as well. They had unique backgrounds and developed unique belief structures, and although they likely saw through them to a large degree, it cannot be said with certainty there was not some influence from there as well. All that being said, it does not negate their awakening, just that each had a unique quality to it.

While we may be able to sense someones greater wisdom and clarity, we cannot know the fullness of their perspective. And while it seems that most awakened teachers share a degree of commonality in their offerings, there are always some uniqueness in them.
Consciousness is One and the Same for Everything.
While consciousness may at its essence be One, I don't see the sameness that you point to. I've not seen sameness in teachers, just similarities and common threads in their teaching. And while consciousness may be the same in that it is consciousness and self aware in the context of humans, each it seems have their own unique qualities whether awakened or not. And I would also suggest that there are many degrees of awakening. Tolle you recall sat on a park bench for two years sorting out his epiphany. He had a realization to awaken him, but took years to gain clarity relating to that realization. I suspect it continues to this day.

I would also add that these teachers for the most part remained human. Adyashanti is married, Nisargardatta sold tobacco, Osho had a thing for the ladies in his Rajneesh days and enjoyed expensive cars, and Tolle is either married or at least a significant other - all very human qualities. None of this says anything about the quality of their teachings or the depth of their clarity.

Now some out there may beat me up on the details of these teacher's human qualities, but they are essentially true.

WW

User avatar
rideforever
Posts: 1513
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:32 pm
Location: Hove

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by rideforever » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:31 am

"How can we know there's no death"

There is no attempt to know.

If you wanted to know you would go to a burial site or watch a body burning, or try to die.

What there is, is talking.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

User avatar
Rick
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:30 pm

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Rick » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:48 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Rick wrote:What they awakened to is the Absolute,
I'm not sure you can make that case without some qualification. My sense is that what they awakened to was their perception of the Absolute.


Some things just can not be adjudicated in the court of a mans mind. All I can say is that if one has only awakened to one's perception of the Absolute, then one hasn't really awakened at all, but remains in the egoic mind "thinking" that they found something they haven't. But once Grace has given one even the slightest taste of the Absolute...lets just say that Self vibrates in recognition of Self.
Webwanderer wrote:I would also add that these teachers for the most part remained human. Adyashanti is married, Nisargardatta sold tobacco, Osho had a thing for the ladies in his Rajneesh days and enjoyed expensive cars, and Tolle is either married or at least a significant other - all very human qualities. None of this says anything about the quality of their teachings or the depth of their clarity.
There are two kinds of human beings. Those that live in slavery to their mind, and those that have found freedom from the mind. You either understand this or you don't. Not sure what being married, or not married, or having money or being poor, having a business or begging on the corner has got to do with Freedom. But I would ask you this, of this things you mention about the above teachers, do you have personal knowledge of any of this, or are you just sharing a little gossip you picked up somewhere?
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

randomguy
Posts: 967
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:00 am

Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by randomguy » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:23 pm

Too much attention perhaps is placed on physical form. How is it known that one is in physical form? Can one know for sure that one is in physical form? Is it possible that physical form is an observation of non-physical awareness?
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

Post Reply