How can we know there's no death

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ashley72
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:08 am

Rick wrote:
ashley72 wrote:
Because near-death and out-of-body experiences require the presence of a brain, they cannot reflect what happens after death


Come on guys let's get serious...surely you cannot denied this clear fact?
My understanding is that near-death is "near" death not "the" death. In the near-death accounts there is often times a threshold after which there is no return. The folks who have written accounts of NDE did not cross this threshold. In fact, there isn't anyone who has and has written about it as far as I know.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-dea ... #section_3

Check out the section "Afterlife Viewpoints".


NDE'r are claiming their experiences are evidence of an afterlife. Which is completely invalid because they have a brain when the experiences occur.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:18 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Ash do you seriously believe you are your physical entity as passionately as you seem to be espousing?

I say this not in judgement or ridicule, but as a sincere attempt to understand your perspective on which you base your experience of life. Namaste
Learn to follow the line of argument being presented. You don't seem to be following at the moment. :wink:

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by arel » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:12 pm

If we take experience of deep sleep and anesthesia, that is available to all of us, and make conclusions, what could we come up with? I can say that I have no memory of deep sleep or anesthesia. I can also say with certainty that I exist after these events. So then deep sleep and anesthesia only prove a gap in formation of memory, through stop in formations of perception it seems. But then I as the subject of objects reappear. So based on this direct experiences why not conclude that this is likely to happen at the event of what we call "death"? All the "proof" is here. Sounds like a valid belief and conclusion to me...
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by randomguy » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:18 pm

Jen wrote:
Randomguy said topic of beliefs in an afterlife on a Tolle forum,
Did you watch the Tolle video above?
Jen wrote:I'm most impressed that he recognises that what 'left' the body at the time of 'death' was the essence of the one that once inhabited it.
Jen wrote:What leaves the body is 'life' - and while it may be the demise of the body, it is in no way the demise of life.
I have watched the video and yep it's a video of Tolle doing his thing, and it's good stuff. Jen the link in your earlier post seems broken. Here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWXpPGL55No

I think I have the right link here. Our interpretations seem to differ so it made me wonder for a moment if I did, but it's probably more likely that we have differing experiences with the video.

I wager that the part that you wish to point out is that bit in the message that identification with form can continue in consciousness past the experience of death. If so, what would you propose one do with the bit about identification with form persisting past the experience of death?

So, the video image of Tolle says, "Ultimately what we see as death is the disillusion of form."

It also says "...who you are, which is formless consciousness..." Let's explore what is said here. Formless consciousness, is this what you meant by the "one that once inhabited it" The "one" here I assumed when first reading your lines above as the experience of the individuated energy you have spoken about previously. Please correct this if that's not a good interpretation. What I ask is, wouldn't energy be form, not just physical body form, but form, as in observable form? Perhaps that's an important distinction and could explain the differing interpretations or maybe the interpretations are not as different as imagined. Form as I understand it is everything perceivable, sensations, perceptions, experience, thought, anything observable including energy, sense of emptiness, the entire observable world down to the sense of existence, form. Formless would be the unobservable.

Likewise I especially didn't hear anything that would suggest holding to a belief in the afterlife. Rather the last third of the video is like a loop of repetition of the message that it is important to be still within yourself, to go into "the deep stillness where you realize who you are, and once you realize who you are, which is formless consciousness, then you realize also that nothing real died ...which is to say ultimately that there is no death" What I like about this message is that it says the answer is accessible by you as you are, here in the present moment (as there is no other and certainly no other to trouble one's self about). Earlier I asked what would you propose one do with the suggestion that identification with form can continue in consciousness past the experience of death. This message I just quoted is what video-Tolle proposes one do and I think it's a well suggested pointer don't you think?
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by runstrails » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:10 pm

Nice posts and discussion random guy and Jen.
Is the discrepancy between your points of view one of 'soul' vs. 'source'. That is, Jen suggests 'soul' (or some similar word for the individuated energy) is what continues after death of the body form. On the other hand, random guy, is speaking directly to 'source' or the formless from which all reality descends--your ultimate true nature.
If my interpretation is correct (and it may not be, of course), then I had a similar question: Why bother with 'soul' when you can go beyond that and realize 'source' or your 'ultimate' true self (to the extent that you can, of course).

Anyway, I could be completely off base here, but this issue has been on my mind. Thanks for an interesting discussion.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:33 pm

runstrails wrote:If my interpretation is correct (and it may not be, of course), then I had a similar question: Why bother with 'soul' when you can go beyond that and realize 'source' or your 'ultimate' true self (to the extent that you can, of course).
Please allow my interjection here. No doubt both Jen and RG are more than capable of their own insightful offerings of which I look forward to.

Why bother with soul? My sense is because 'Soul expression' offers a uniqueness of perspective while yet maintaining Essential Oneness. It's the Infinite Hologram. It's the best of both worlds so to speak. The countless 'souls' are the Source extensions for the expansion of being through unique experience that can then be shared by All.

WW

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by runstrails » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:37 pm

Thanks WW. But given the desires and attachments of the soul--there would still be the potential for suffering (for the human form) because of identification at the level of the soul.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:24 pm

I too thank ((randomguy))
I wager that the part that you wish to point out is that bit in the message that identification with form can continue in consciousness past the experience of death. If so, what would you propose one do with the bit about identification with form persisting past the experience of death?
Go bigger randomguy - What would you 'identify' with?

Life / consciousness is not linear, or confined by time or any other dimension of itself.

Even in individuated form every moment 'experience' has the 'potential' and does recreate the 'big bang' of creation that explodes and flows and interacts and creates exponentially in every direction and every dimension of all life - which science - human beings looking at and testing for the properties of and labelling and measuring .. then eventually 'using' that knowledge, cannot find the 'beginning' or the 'end' of 'form', not in microscopic terms or in telescopic terms.

No matter how powerful a tool they build they find more evidence of this at both ends of the spectrum - within and outside of individuatedisms. (that's a new word I made up to apply for the tiniest element of an atom or the biggest galaxy as a system and every 'thing' in between, depending on 'how' you are viewing it, the parameters you've set for the 'boundaries' of it in your perceiving.)

- identifying with your particular 'form' of it is kind of missing the point within the exponential oneness that we are in constant, multi dimensional creation.

Life in any form is not isolated or definable except in this moment, in this circumstance, from this perspective - which is a fragment of the holographic reality AND is influenced by the looking creating another big bang out of the potential.

This will speak to trails too, who I thank too - before I logged on this morning I took a quiet moment because I watched a video interview yesterday by Gregg Braden - Entanglement that speaks to the field of awareness or whatever label science is using and all the experiments and the parameters etc they've been using to try to define it. His understanding is close and that he respects the wisdom of the elders and then looks for that in science is great.

Although I had an 'irk' that even he doesn't seem to realise that all elements combined into things have this holographic capacity and consciousness source and the ability to know it, not just humans - that's our fall from grace with think its only us, and that's a huge part of the flaws of science.

What they may be missing in the understanding of the holographic nature of the universe is that we don't have to travel to Mars to know Mars, we are Mars and therefore we already know Mars, we don't need to cut up an amoeba or a photon or a tree or a rock or a planet or a brain or a frog for its experience as a perspective -open our energy centres and ask it!! The knowledge is already there in the energy - we're studying the 'form' and the 'form' is energy which we already are and can know if we get our identification with our 'selves' out of the way.

While watching the video and madly taking notes of 'proof' - this experiment, that discovery, this result, this ....madness!!!!
Exponentially the energies - like a mini 'big bang' went off on all their tangents within my consciousness awareness - they're getting close, but are they still missing the point?

This big bang consciousness, which some, perceiving through the head mind find complex and confusing and as if any of the tangents are 'unrelated' - how can they be unrelated? it's all related!!

However many perspectives we allow to arise determines the collections that we call experience.

For every 'big bang' of experience we can be present and aware, and also aware that some of the perspectives cannot be seen from this 'angle' or 'depth' of experience.

a) that we can be aware that these mini big bangs happen all the time, but first we have to accept that

and b) that we can have consciousness of their source and pathways as they explode out simultaneously in different directions across different dimensions unrestricted.

This is what's seen in the light in collapsing of potentials.
This is what the ancients know - and how they live/d in harmony with it all, in acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm, through the portals of the heart mind.

Rather than the egoic / attached to individuated perspective through the head mind 'cut it up', 'profit' from it - use it all as either an obstacle to their conscious and the acceptance that all is one,
or as an enemy in that what they don't know they seek to destroy - even if they seek to destroy it in order to know it!!
or as a means to an end.. in some misguided head mind identification with their perspective of 'form'.

Part of the big bang explosion while watching the video was a notion of 'hope' that 'Trails would with her balance of compassion and scientific rigour weigh in on this - because I got thrown out of science class in the first year of high school - and exponentially the reason fold all in on itself - because there was a new boy from Iceland came into the class 'feeling' very out of sorts as he stuck out from the crowd and in my 'compassion' I sought to be the link, the conductor from his energies into the new atmosphere for him, and for the 'crowd' the trusted link from them feeling out of balance with this new 'influence' potential.. and the teacher saw it only as me 'talking to a boy' and threw me out of the class for not 'paying attention'.... ummm.... reeeaaaallllyyyy? and so my studies in 'science' were limited :lol:

It does and does not 'matter', but knowing there are more perspectives than we may be aware of, does matter.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:32 am

randomguy wrote: I wager that the part that you wish to point out is that bit in the message that identification with form can continue in consciousness past the experience of death. If so, what would you propose one do with the bit about identification with form persisting past the experience of death?

So, the video image of Tolle says, "Ultimately what we see as death is the disillusion of form."
I'm glad someone has finally mentioned this. This is really what Tolle's Teaching is all about.... the disillusion of form in our direct experience, such as during deep sleep.
randomguy wrote: It also says "...who you are, which is formless consciousness..." Let's explore what is said here. Formless consciousness, is this what you meant by the "one that once inhabited it" The "one" here I assumed when first reading your lines above as the experience of the individuated energy you have spoken about previously. Please correct this if that's not a good interpretation. What I ask is, wouldn't energy be form, not just physical body form, but form, as in observable form? Perhaps that's an important distinction and could explain the differing interpretations or maybe the interpretations are not as different as imagined. Form as I understand it is everything perceivable, sensations, perceptions, experience, thought, anything observable including energy, sense of emptiness, the entire observable world down to the sense of existence, form. Formless would be the unobservable.
Yes.
randomguy wrote: Likewise I especially didn't hear anything that would suggest holding to a belief in the afterlife. Rather the last third of the video is like a loop of repetition of the message that it is important to be still within yourself, to go into "the deep stillness where you realize who you are, and once you realize who you are, which is formless consciousness, then you realize also that nothing real died ...which is to say ultimately that there is no death".
What he means by this is "deep stillness" is the primordial state of rest which existed before you were born, that stillness before all experience. Therefore, if that primordial state of rest can be directly sensed whilst alive, he concludes that it must not have been born. Therefore, when you are dead, you will be back in the primordial state of rest which existed before you were born, that stillness before all experience.

But the deep stillness that Tolle talks about, doesn't contain mental imagery...."Out of body Experiences", "Tunnel Experiences", "Seeing the Light" that are popular amongst NDE'r. All these experiences contain the perspective of an individual "I" observing.... which is the egoic mind at play. NDE'r are reporting their association with the death process, and they do not distinguish between the egoic mechanisms they brought to the experience and the process itself. Therefore, the reports of near-death experiences are full of the results of egoity, and they are not pure representations of the process of death.

randomguy wrote: What I like about this message is that it says the answer is accessible by you as you are, here in the present moment (as there is no other and certainly no other to trouble one's self about). Earlier I asked what would you propose one do with the suggestion that identification with form can continue in consciousness past the experience of death. This message I just quoted is what video-Tolle proposes one do and I think it's a well suggested pointer don't you think?
I agree. However, any model of Consciousness described on these pages will still be conceptual.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by randomguy » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:29 am

Thanks to you as well Jen.
I still don't get what you are pointing out from the Tolle video. I'm still on the response to your question of did I watch the Tolle video on death, in which I responded with more or less agreement with Tolle in that to know yourself is to know what is death. If you would, what do you make of his pointer to go into deep stillness where you realize your nature of formless awareness?
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by randomguy » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:48 am

trails wrote:If my interpretation is correct (and it may not be, of course), then I had a similar question: Why bother with 'soul' when you can go beyond that and realize 'source' or your 'ultimate' true self (to the extent that you can, of course).
Because within consciousness there is love with experiencing form and why not? The question in my experience is one of want, whether there is a serious want of a break up or not. That or there is intense tear-the-doors-off interest in seeing what this love affair really is.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:53 am

If you would, what do you make of his pointer to go into deep stillness where you realize your nature of formless awareness?
I close my head mind am-is-are there :D
It's the 'head' that I employ for 'using' interpreting on this slower and in need of 'proof' in this ...slower, physical environment of form.

With absolute ease and very often I go through the portal of my heart mind and 'there' am-is-are.


With my limited scientific - head mind I can say, that as science is slooooowwwwwlllllyyyy discovering - in the 'space' within and around all things and all minutae of all things, and all expanse of all things - there is the stillness (which apparently got itself excluded from science because of its stillness - lack of motion in some experiment in the 1890s or sometime around there).

The consciousness of all. Within that, all things arise, but they already and always are 'formless awareness'.

there is no separation except in perspective/perception 'in form'.

I am sorry the heart mind KNOWS this without words and it is instinctive, intuitive.
In order to make it take form we need words, and therefore employ the servant the head mind and like my body that is clunky and so much harder to 'work'.

From what I understand from Tolle (while feeling I was reading it backwards from awareness in order to understand unawareness)

Ego says 'I am' in difference to ...
Separated individual perspective of anything outside of I am = It is.
If open to the energies of creation while in form, or from a perspective one might say
I am + It is = all (across any 'scope')

am is.
is am.
are one, but thought to be 'different' or 'separate' by degrees of perspective of BEING in form.

I explained somewhere here recently
Is = 3rd person singular present indicative of be
Am = 1st person singular present indicative of be.
an addition -
Are = second-person singular simple present tense of be


is am are, one, always have been always will be.

It's not that there is no thing in the 'space' it's that all things AM ARE IS in the space.

And experiencing that you know you am is are formless awareness.
Rising within that multi-perspectively is 'form'
In form by the persepective of being there is a false separation of all being.

In form the perspectives of 'first person = am (I am)
the second person perspective = are (you are)
the third person perpective - = is (it is)

just as the am are is BE
so the I, you, it are one.

Does that even come close to answering?
I feel... you will have read it in your head mind.
take it to that quiet space in your heart mind. The heart mind won't argue with it, for it knows am-are-is source - formless awareness, arising by perspective into form.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:51 am

Randomguy said
Likewise I especially didn't hear anything that would suggest holding to a belief in the afterlife.
Who said anything about a 'belief in the afterlife'?
I KNOW there is no death because life is eternal and simultaneously eternally 'now', that's not a belief in the afterlife, that's knowing life, and knowing that life has many perspectives.
Rather the last third of the video is like a loop of repetition of the message that it is important to be still within yourself, to go into "the deep stillness where you realize who you are, and once you realize who you are, which is formless consciousness, then you realize also that nothing real died ...which is to say ultimately that there is no death"
Yes,there is always life.
What I like about this message is that it says the answer is accessible by you as you are, here in the present moment (as there is no other and certainly no other to trouble one's self about). quote]
Absolutely and the ancients (and those who learn via seeing it / experiencing it) know this.
The answer to anything is am are
The answer to anything is compassion
The is am are... is am are compassion.

Earlier I asked what would you propose one do with the suggestion that identification with form can continue in consciousness past the experience of death. This message I just quoted is what video-Tolle proposes one do and I think it's a well suggested pointer don't you think?[/
Only the head mind thinks that this state is 'nothing'.
is am are.

'Identification with' is an unnecessary constraint (judgement of form) based on perception.
Compassion in all and any 'form' arising doesn't 'do' that, is not that - constrain or judge, it allows, it is - is am are - and the evidence of it is in its form wherever its form arises.
Which absolutely is in any present moment and in all form because it is the source and absolutely you can be aware of in any moment in any dimension in any form because it is (am are) - who / what the is (am are) is whether formless or in form.

Try it - answer any question who, what, why, how - 'with compassion'
what is compassion - 'all' and the applied knowledge of it.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by randomguy » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:12 pm

It feels to me like a bit of a dog and pony show that Jen and randomguy are in some virtual forum opposition together.

I'll just say what the bottom line is from my perspective and interest.

On this topic, what Ramana asks is wonderful. "Who's is the birth?"

What is so lovely about Advaita at its core is it is not really a teaching or a set of explanations, it is a constant open invitation to see directly what you are. There is nothing in the messages of the true sages that suggests the existence of a knowing outside yourself of any importance. See for yourself where that notion resides. Nor is there suggestions that you need to take steps to prepare for some other knowing or follow a practice to reach what you already are. As well there is nothing needed to be add up or figured out. Just an invitation to see what you are.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by rideforever » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:55 pm

randomguy wrote:It feels to me like a bit of a dog and pony show that Jen and randomguy are in some virtual forum opposition together.

I'll just say what the bottom line is from my perspective and interest.

On this topic, what Ramana asks is wonderful. "Who's is the birth?"

What is so lovely about Advaita at its core is it is not really a teaching or a set of explanations, it is a constant open invitation to see directly what you are. There is nothing in the messages of the true sages that suggests the existence of a knowing outside yourself of any importance. See for yourself where that notion resides. Nor is there suggestions that you need to take steps to prepare for some other knowing or follow a practice to reach what you already are. As well there is nothing needed to be add up or figured out. Just an invitation to see what you are.
After 13 pages, at last, something intelligent !
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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