How can we know there's no death

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ashley72
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:10 am

Webwanderer wrote:And it's a proven fact that a radio plays a pivotal role in generating music, but that says nothing of the origin of the music.
Music is encoded using a modulation format. AM stands for amplitude modulation & FM stands for frequency modulation. Modulation is the way data or audio is converted into a radio frequency signal. There is two main components a radio transmitter and a radio receiver. By tuning into different radio signals you can decode the signal.
Webwanderer wrote: A scientist without the tools to measure radio waves could demonstrate by manipulating certain radio parts that he could affect the sound the radio was generating and falsely claim proof that the radio was the origin of the music.
Any things "possible" when one merely considers the possibilities and neglects the probability of it happening based on all "the facts on the ground."


This too was once a possibility of flight. Unfortunately, this guy decided to skip the lecture on power-to-weight ratios! :idea:


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Webwanderer
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:44 pm

ashley72 wrote:What I find most interesting about the "afterlife" believers is they love to selective use sciencific instruments such as "flat-EEG" readings as evidence that an NDE'r must have been dead during the NDE. But as soon as other clinical studies are thrown at them.... they quickly protest....and say things like "science doesn't have all the answers. This sort of behaviour is referred to as "confirmation bias" or myside bias... which is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. :wink:
Projection: The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.

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SandyJoy
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by SandyJoy » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:13 pm

Webwanderer wrote:And it's a proven fact that a radio plays a pivotal role in generating music, but that says nothing of the origin of the music. A scientist without the tools to measure radio waves could demonstrate by manipulating certain radio parts that he could affect the sound the radio was generating and falsely claim proof that the radio was the origin of the music.
I have always loved this radio analogy ( I love analogies) In some ways the Life we call matter is Living analogy, you just have to be able to interpret it, look at it, read it correctly.

Anyway, the radio analogy is a good one---Yes, as I see it, we are much like a radio;

It is as if the Whole Universe is one big celestial symphony, as if God is the vibrations, the sound, the playing of the stings, the drums, the reverberating of God's Heavenly Voice, It's Song of Life, It's Love Song and the rhythm of Its Eternal Love ---and this body is the like a transformer, the radio that picks up the signals and manifests the world of form and things which is really the Symphony Being Heard. As in; the world we see, the world that seems like an objective world, the world that appears to objective forms that we "look around" and call matter, time, space and things is really more like the the music being heard, being seen, known, witnessed---- just in the same way we hear the symphony when we go to hear an orchestra play.

Also, the beauty of the music analogy is that there is only Symphony being played---we hear a symphony in total, not in notes, not in chords. We hear the whole sound of the total symphony. Even though the symphony is made is made of single notes and chords, It really is nothing quite so beautiful until the all the notes and chords are come together and placed precisely just so, as the create a true Heavenly Concerto Masterpiece, with ups and downs, and slows and crescendos, grand fortissimos, and poco a pocco, pianissimo and bursts and pounding---the whole Wonder of It all.

The radio is the thing that finds the Music, the Music of the Spheres, and makes it available to be KNOWN, heard, seen, felt---made evident.

The world of matter is the Living Evidence of God-- This world is the Song Heard.

Or I can think of the radio idea as also more like a projector.

We are the projector of the Light, the Divine Light flows through us, hits the film, shines through the film and then to make the movie, the images, the story appear on the screen; the holographic universe.

We stand like the projector between the Eternal Infinite Light, the Information, which is God's Light and Sound being passed through us, then to see the images made manifest.

But the movie, the images, are interpretations of The Ineffable One Intelligent Light being projected 'through us' (its' aspects of Its self as the instruments to make the Movie happen)---

If we have a clear lens and a steady, solidly stable base and if we are sitting true, balanced, evenly upon the table---as the projector, we are apt to see a much better movie, we will project the film with more true appearances, we will see an understandable story, a movie that has meaning and purpose and reason.

If the movie is clear, then we can know what the movie is about and learn from it, maybe it is a documentary, an educational film, or maybe a long tale of mystery and intrigue, or maybe an industrial film, or could be a marvelous fairytale of magic and magic kingdoms and war lords---What we are watching we could understand better and learn from if we were tuned to right channel or had our lens in focus--- this movie is for us, for us to know the message, the meaning, to know what it is telling us.

If we are an unstable, wobbly, projector with an out of focus, twisted, dirty lens, foggy lens, we will project a dirty, distorted, less than 'true' movie (yes, the law of attraction is our very nature, manifestation is in action all the time). We won't be able to understand the film, the story, nothing will make sense to us.

Or if we are a radio that is out of tune, off station, on AM (objective view) when the music is being broadcast on FM (subjective view) then we won't hear what is being played, or we will get a lot of static and we will not be able to hear the beauty of the symphony being, and we will think there is nothing but garbled noise going on, and we will be adamant that there is nothing but a confusing cacophony of confusing sounds going on, because that is exactly what we hear.

No one could convince us there a symphony to heard, if we are tuned to the wrong station.

We could not project, or tune in and broadcast, hear, see, witness, KNOW the Exceptionally Marvelous, Masterpiece of The Divine Symphony going on, if we stubbornly insist that there are no other stations on our dial, on our turner.

Whatever we call the 'device' that makes the unseen seen or makes God Known---We know it takes the whole (totality of self as a human being) projector, the whole radio, the whole transistor to be in line, adjusted aright, secure on the table.

That means we should know that the very intelligence of the Heart is also involved, the Unbound Knowing of the Soul, the eternal presence of Spirit, the honesty of the Gut, the Divinity of Mind, the mechanics of the Brain, the Mystery of the Intuition, the divine Love that expresses as a sense of ego, the sense of individuality, and each otherness--- each radio with a uniqueness, which includes the feelings and emotions, all filtering together to make the music heard "appear tangible" from your radio ---

and also, we know a radio can't just play a tune with only the 'tubes' (brain) or if the cord is plugged but there are no parts inside. Or if the wires inside were not connecting---we'd not be functioning as one fine radio, or one complete perfectly running projector. However, we should and could know that the Symphony was still going on, that the Symphony is being played whether we are tuned in or not. Whether we have all our parts or not, the PERFECT Symphony of God's Infinity is Being All That Is. and Includes all That You Are.

You need your gut, your heart, your spirit, your soul, all your parts make the radio more likely to tune into the Grand Celestial Song of Life---or to see a Marvelous Movie before your eyes, projections, images, holographic scene telling the Full Glorious Story of God's Love and Beloved I Am.

This is all just analogy and analogy is never exact---but, it gives the idea of "what is" and how it all works.

Ok, anyway, thank you WW, you always evoke recognition of my own understanding and I just wanted to share a little bit here.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:44 am

Here's another interesting statistic to consider. Less than half the near-death-experiences actually coincide with brushes with death—one study of 58 patients who recounted near-death experiences found 30 were not actually in danger of dying, although most of them thought they were.

Research paper here. => http://www.scopus.com/record/display.ur ... gin=inward

This is strong evidence that reported near-death type experiences mainly happen when the person has a normal functioning brain. These are facts on the ground based on clinical research.

Recently, a host of studies have revealed potential underpinnings for all the elements of such experiences. "Many of the phenomena associated with near-death experiences can be biologically explained," says neuroscientist Dean Mobbs, at the University of Cambridge's Medical Research Council Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit. Mobbs and Caroline Watt at the University of Edinburgh detailed this research online August 17 2011 in Trends in Cognitive Sciences.

Research paper here => http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sc ... 01550?cc=y

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These are published studies based on clinical research. These papers get peer reviewed by the scientific community.

I realise several people on this forum have firm views in opposition to what I'm posting here. That's ok.

Some have personal testimony. That's ok.

Some have theories based on a concept of consciousness. That's ok.

If you care enough about this topic read the clinical studies and debate the weakness or strengths of their findings. Just don't dismiss it out of hand... because its not fitting in with your beliefs. Keep an open mind.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by runstrails » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:27 pm

Hi Ash,
I only had time to (speed) read the first paper that you linked to. Its actually quite supportive of NDE's. I don't know if you read the entire article (or just the abstract that you posted). Here is the link to the article.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7874216/Featu ... near-death
For some reason I could not copy the entire Discussion Section---so here is the first and last sentence from the Discussion Section:
The results we obtained, far from refuting any of the three principal interpretations of NDE’s (transcendental, physiological, psychological), offer in different ways some support for each of them.

Finally, our data contribute to one item relevant to the transcendental interpretation. The hypothesis that the brain is necessary for mental functioning will lead us to expect that as brain function becomes disturbed and perhaps in some cases diminishes, a matching impairment of cognitive function would occur. Instead we found that patients who were actually near death reported enhanced cognitive function at that time.
Anyway, my point of view is that NDE's are yet another phenomena that take place in the universe manifested from source. If you know your true nature or are self-realized then why deny the possibility of this (or any other) phenomena occurring within you.

Ok--and I'm really hoping this is my last post on this thread :)--so all the best to you in your explorations.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by SandyJoy » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:02 pm

Has this one been posted? If not, this is among the best of NDE made for BBC now on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD9jigzz ... re=related

Of course, most of us know that the brain is not the producer of Consciousness/Mind, but I still find this really fascinating and wonderful--

They do seem to come back from being dead--I don' t see how you can say they did not die.

Yes, true, some die and do not come back, but obviously some do die and do resurrect or come back to 'this world'---

I just know that there are many dimensions and we are existing in all those dimensions at once.

Well, I think this is wonderful to watch---the more of us who realize there is no death, the better this time-space world experience will be for us.

Enjoy--- this is a really good one.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:36 am

Of course, most of us know that the brain is not the producer of Consciousness/Mind, but I still find this really fascinating and wonderful--
Sandy,

Do you have a functioning brain? If so it's impossible for you to have direct knowledge that Consciousness is not produced by the brain.

Most psychologist regard "attention" as the code word for consciousness. Our attention appears to be very much linked to our brain function. Well in my case, I have a functioning brain just like every other living human being. The probability of this event is 1. The probability that I don't have a functioning brain, but attentional functioning is a big fat zero. These are facts on the ground. :wink:

If this doesn't fit in with your model of consciousness.... it needs a major overhaul.

BTW, I'm not against what Eckhart Tolle is saying in relation to the conceptual "I" and the nature of human suffering. I'm just not willing to make conclusions that appear to fly in the face of the observable evidence. I would much rather be very analytical about what our attentional nature is and how meditation and mindfulness practice lead to cognitive functioning less driven by fear conditioning. In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Brain function is essential, but fear conditioning does not appear to be essential. Do we need to throw out our brain functioning out along with fear conditioning?

Obviously not. But that's what some folk on this forum do. They have this model of consciousness which seems to supersede any biological functioning. It has no merit whatsoever. Biological functioning is inseparable from our consciousness (attentional functioning) that's the observable evidence. You just can't get around this without coming up with 'mere' conceptual driven 'possibilities' that have no relationship to what's observable (probabilities).

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ashley72
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:59 am

SandyJoy wrote:Yes, true, some die and do not come back, but obviously some do die and do resurrect or come back to 'this world'---
The is selective bias. You're cherry picking bits & pieces to suit your beliefs. Rather then seeing the paradox of why would only a small percentage "appear" to have a so called glimpse of death?

Another paradox... why do the majority of NDE also have a glimpse when clearly not dead?

Another paradox... why do the medical profession refer to brain death as an irreversible process?

Another paradox.... Why do the scientific community now have scientific explanations for all the NDE phenomena?

These are facts on the ground (observable evidence) which can't be ignored.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:29 am

SandyJoy wrote:They do seem to come back from being dead--I don' t see how you can say they did not die.
Firstly, when your heart stops, cardiac arrest... intervention can still reverse the process and stabilise the heart function. Just because its called clinical death doesn't mean brain death has occurred... brain death occurs after oxygen starvation to the brain has occurred for sometime after heart stoppage and lack of oxygen supply to brain cells. In other words biological cell death takes time to occur... it's not an instantaneous process aligned with stopping of the heart.

Secondly, a flat EEG is not a sign of irreversible brain death. As a flat EEG can also occur when under deep anaesthesia. It's merely a signal of brain activity on the surface of the cortex. It says nothing of brain activity or cell activity at deeper levels of the cortex or brain. This is why an EEG is only one of several indicators of brain death. For one, it is necessary for two flat EEG readings spaced over a 24 hr time interval before brain death is considered when the body is on life support.
Last edited by ashley72 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by SandyJoy » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:14 am

ashley72 wrote:Sandy,

Do you have a functioning brain?
Uuumm, well, not really. I am about the bimboest bimbo you'd ever meet. I am very sure I can find several friends that would agree. :lol:

But, I do have a good time.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:35 am

SandyJoy wrote:
ashley72 wrote:Sandy,

Do you have a functioning brain?
Uuumm, well, not really. I am about the bimboest bimbo you'd ever meet. I am very sure I can find several friends that would agree. :lol:

But, I do have a good time.
Oh well, your got yourself an "irrational" functioning brain then.... don't worry you're not alone. :lol:

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:29 am

runstrails wrote:Hi Ash,
I only had time to (speed) read the first paper that you linked to. Its actually quite supportive of NDE's. I don't know if you read the entire article (or just the abstract that you posted). Here is the link to the article.
This study does "NOT" support the notion that NDE's is some type of "proof" of afterlife or that Consciousness functions independently of brain function. Not at all. Its merely saying that it supports the experience. In other words, NDE'r are not falsifying their experiences... so NDE's most likely occur just the way people describe them. I've never argued against this obvious fact.

The study further found that it appears in some cases "enhancement cognitive powers" has occurred despite the likelihood that brain function had "probably" become disturbed and possibly diminished, which needs further investigation.

This is interesting as what the other studies have also found - is that when temporal parietal junction has any kind of instability "outer body type experience" can occur.

Other studies have also found that that most deaths ultimately result from a break in the “chain of oxygen supply.” Oxygen is key not only because lack of it leads to death of the brainstem and other organs, but also because focusing on it sheds a light on why, when dying (starved of oxygen), people have the kinds of NDEs that are commonly reported. Reports of a bright light, tunnels, and pleasant feelings are all accountable in terms of oxygen starvation in certain areas of the brain. Deprived of oxygen, consciousness begins to fade, and, as it does, NDEs arise. Those NDEs we know about are those that people can remember, of course, for the losing of consciousness is also associated with a loss of memory. This is another reason why so few people recall memories of the experience as the data indicates.

runstrails wrote: Anyway, my point of view is that NDE's are yet another phenomena that take place in the universe manifested from source. If you know your true nature or are self-realized then why deny the possibility of this (or any other) phenomena occurring within you.
"Attention" is the code term that most psychologist use for Consciousness. Therefore a self-realised person directly 'sees" they're nature is attentive.

IMO self-realisation is merely the direct-realisation that my underlying or primary nature is not conceptually based, but a direct seeing of the attention itself, prior to thought. This however, does not mean my attentive nature is result of some universal force, and has no biological roots in the brain. If anything its hard to argue against the likelihood that our attentive nature is based on brain function. Damage to the right hemisphere of the brain leads to cognitive-communication problems, such as impaired memory, attention problems and poor reasoning. In many cases, the person with right brain damage is not aware of the problems that he or she is experiencing.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by rideforever » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:26 am

Webwanderer wrote:
ashley72 wrote:What I find most interesting about the "afterlife" believers is they love to selective use sciencific instruments such as "flat-EEG" readings as evidence that an NDE'r must have been dead during the NDE. But as soon as other clinical studies are thrown at them.... they quickly protest....and say things like "science doesn't have all the answers. This sort of behaviour is referred to as "confirmation bias" or myside bias... which is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. :wink:
Projection: The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.
Agree totally.
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ashley72
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:20 pm

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Sum » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:20 pm

Jen, I agree that the convergence of scientific disciplines is exciting and look forward to seeing the results. Any real scientist shouldn't go into a hypothesis with "the notion that it's not real", but should have an open mind to whatever the results support. The whole point of science is to get beyond the confirmatory bias that plagues all of us, and reach conclusions based on objective evidence rather than what we want or fear to be true.
There is a study about to be published about energy levels in a room that were monitored and had 'significant' changes while an energy healer was in the room and healing a patient. The energy level stayed elevated for a few minutes after the healer left the room and then returned to normal.
To truly test whether the energy level was due to clair abilities, you would need to rule out other explanations. For example, we know in pyschology that merely being in the presence of another person can increase energy levels. In this case, if the person had the ability to channel healing energies, the recovery rate of people visited by the healer should be higher than the recovery rate of people with similar illnesses not visited by the healer. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any studies that have demonstrated this YET.
The next morning I found out my boyfriend had been admitted to the same hospital with a burst appendix.
I've heard of similar experiences in my own family, and they are probably not as unusual as we might think. Again though, to conclude that they are the result of clair abilities we would need to rule out other possible explanations. For example, we know that bizarre phenomena regularly occur simply as the result of chance alone. If you toss a dice billions of times, it is going to show a series of 6's at some point. If someone happened to be observing the dice roll during that rare window where you rolled one 6 after another after another, they might conclude incorrectly that you have some kind of telekinetic ability, when the reality is that it happened due to chance alone.

The scientific standard, such as it is, is that phenomena need to occur at a rate higher than 5% in order to reliably conclude that they are due to something other than chance. A p < .05 probability seems rather arbitrary in its own right, but it illustrates the underlying principle that strange phenomena do occur by chance alone, and we should be wary of drawing incorrect conclusions without taking that into account.

Here's a blurb about one common cognitive bias that we tend to have as human beings:
Availability bias is a human cognitive bias that causes us to overestimate probabilities of events associated with memorable or dramatic occurrences. A cognitive bias is a pattern of deviation in judgment that occurs in particular situations. A cognitive bias can also be explained as a flaw in judgment which is caused by memory, social attribution, and statistical errors. Since, memorable events are further magnified by coverage in the media; the bias is compounded on the society level. Two well-known examples would be estimations of the probability of plane accidents and the kidnap of children. Both events are quite rare, but the huge majority of the population outrageously overestimates their probability, and behaves accordingly. In reality, one is more likely to die from an auto accident than from a plane accident, and a child has a higher risk of dying in an accident than the risk of getting kidnapped.

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