How can we know there's no death

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby dijmart » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:25 am

It's not that we are here to simply be blotches of unconditional love/awareness and accept everything at face value


Even if I know I AM awareness and only awareness, appearing to appear as human doesn't mean the human doesn't "exist". Therefore, simply being blotches of awareness (whatever that means exactly) isn't possible, because the character will and does continue to exist, even if it's not ultimately real. Only awareness is real and true reality. Objects seem to appear real only because they are Illumined and enlivened by awareness itself. To know and understand that absolute awareness is what you ARE, not some limited individual, is the key to ending suffering. Without awareness nothing would exist, so how can you be anything but awareness itself. You are not an object, you are the perceiver of objects, including the human body, mind complex. Ignorance of this causes misery and false identification.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:09 am

Well, the question was in reference to unconditional love and how it relates to our human experience. So, I guess I was just saying that we're not meant to just incarnate here to live our human lives in an absolute state of perfection (meaning complete unconditional love) while experiencing through human bodies. Meaning, it's impossible and it's too much to ask of ourselves anyway. Like I said, we already ARE perfect and unconditional as our nature, which I would agree with you with, but we're here to explore what it's like to NOT be perfect and in the process to learn to love ourselves FOR those imperfections.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby randomguy » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:02 pm

td wrote:...if every ox herder decides to live blissfully in silence, how would any of us come to our understanding?

From simple recognition that the silence already is.
Understanding occurs fleetingly within it.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby dijmart » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:04 pm

The word Love has negative connotations also, so the word I would not use often in sprituality talk. Possessive, jealous love for example...not fun when you're the object of this kind of love. Just like the word "god" can have negative meaning also. Example, when people are raised that God is judgemental and will punish them for sinning.
So, when someone says unconditional love, I get the meaning, but don't prefer the term. Just saying acceptance of what is, without needing it to be different, is enough for me.

but we're here to explore what it's like to NOT be perfect and in the process to learn to love ourselves FOR those imperfections.


That may be the mind's point of view, which I believe exists into the astral realm as spirit with a subtle body, but that is "still" an "object" and not what you really are. Everything..(including, god)...is appearing to appear, there is no cause, no agenda, no purpose accept what are minds want to make of it, through the power of Maya. Which creates the illusion.

My opinion is that awakening to this illusion is the beginning of true freedom, not the niceties of love and kindness, although they may be by-products of self realization and assimilation.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:11 pm

Sighclone wrote:Nice comments, E2B. Unconditional love is not uniformly touted as an essential component of awakening...but it should be. Ironically, Nanci Danison (book is "Backwards") had a NDE and returned with the conviction that UL is the only meaning of life....her book is remarkable -- you would enjoy it. Most authentic awakenings I've read about reach UL one of two ways: 1) Since "I" am everything, of course "I" will love myself. Nothing is separate from "me." And I sure as hell am not going to be attacking myself. 2) The experience of awakening is so profoundly loving, as in the child's security "at home" in a loving environment, awakened action can only be always saturated with it. Adya referred to it as "love returning for itself."



I don't really like the idea of reaching unconditional love, although perhaps we can say in the absence of reaching for love it kisses you on the button of your nose. Point being that love isn't the conclusion that you are everything, but the absence of the division (more pointedly the beliefs) that even begs the question.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:45 pm

dijmart wrote:
It's not that we are here to simply be blotches of unconditional love/awareness and accept everything at face value


Even if I know I AM awareness and only awareness, appearing to appear as human doesn't mean the human doesn't "exist".


Actually, that kind of is what it means, but not in the sense that it's an ultimately true idea or suttin. The illusion of separation is created through the spatial framework, which is an idea. You are there and I am here. Time is the linear framework which gives meaning to change. One minute ago you were there and then 60 seconds later you were here. Time and space never become more than ideas, even though they are useful ideas that can be used to differentiate and supply meaning to your experience. If the framework which makes your form (the human) relative to other form is only an idea, the human only 'exists' inside of an idea generated by the thinking mind. Separation does not exist.

Therefore, simply being blotches of awareness (whatever that means exactly) isn't possible, because the character will and does continue to exist, even if it's not ultimately real. Only awareness is real and true reality. Objects seem to appear real only because they are Illumined and enlivened by awareness itself. To know and understand that absolute awareness is what you ARE, not some limited individual, is the key to ending suffering. Without awareness nothing would exist, so how can you be anything but awareness itself. You are not an object, you are the perceiver of objects, including the human body, mind complex. Ignorance of this causes misery and false identification


Awareness or consciousness is non local. The ideas of time and space are generated in awareness, so placing awareness inside one of these ideas (like behind the human form) isn't logical. During the bifurcation process implicit in thinking awareness becomes aware of apparent separation, along with the illusion of being a separate thinker inside of consciousness. What notices thinking and dreaming and experiences transcends the thinking the dreaming and the experiencing. In the same way your mind creates dreams at night from outside the parameters of the dream, consciousness is no where to be found in the dream of form itself.
Knowing awareness is what you are is the key to ending suffering, but this knowing isn't knowledge in the typical sense of the word, but the product of unknowing and questioning beliefs.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby dijmart » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:34 pm

Absolutely and agreed.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby dijmart » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:00 pm

Oh but, this part I was going to comment-

Actually, that kind of is what it means, but not in the sense that it's an ultimately true idea or suttin. The illusion of separation is created through the spatial framework,


Something appearing to exist is not the same to me as being real.

So when I said-

Even if I know I AM awareness and only awareness, a doesn't mean the human doesn't "exist".


The human exists within awareness, but is not, can not be real, as awareness is the only Reality. So, my dreams at night may exist as an experience, but when I awake there is the knowledge they aren't "real".

As a side note, I went several years not remembering my dreams, but maybe one or two bits a year. Lately though I've been remembering them nightly for about 8 days, very odd. Boy, those suckers seem sooo real. Funny they are not, puts this apperently reality into perspective.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:05 pm

Hey Di,

The word love that I am referring is far far different than any kind of human love and doesn't even correlate with the word kindness to be honest. I totally get you and I agree.

The word I am referring to is existence itself. It's awareness itself. Any word can have any connotation, depending on how we perceive it. It doesn't have to though. Words are just words anyway and simply ways to communicate and don't have any deeper meaning behind the letters on the screen. Yet, what it points to is of utmost importance and of course, our intention behind the words gives the words "meaning". The word Love has a deeper meaning to me and that's why I prefer it.

That aside, whether reality is an illusion or not to me, whether you want to call it maya, it's all good, but is really not overly important to me right now. I'm currently not interested in the philosophical side of things and more interested in my direct experience, in embracing and expressing my emotions, and understanding my feelings. De-personalizing everything is an escape route for many if you're not actually EMBRACING your own emotional baggage. I've learned this myself. I feel this gives me the true path to non-duality, in embracing EVERYTHING that I experience and not dis-regarding any aspect as 'separate'.

The philosophical stuff was important at one point for me and perhaps will be important at a time in the future (I'd like to explore self realization more as I don't feel I understand it fully in regards to the non-duality stuff that you guys talk about), when I choose to further delve into it, but to be honest, right now, it doesn't make my experience richer. Everything might ultimately be unreal from a given perspective of Emptiness, but that's simply not our concern while here on this physical plane if you ask me as quoted by my buddy Bob who's article I posted earlier in the thread.

The only thing that is important to me right now is how can I love my own experience and in turn share that love By EMBODYING it in my experience with others.

Even so, objects themselves are not just appearances or random arisings within consciousness. Consciousness is evident at every level of being. Even whole planets can be said to be conscious on a whole different level than human experience of consciousness. For example, a tree is an object within the perception of this body/mind (consciousness), but the tree itself is also experiencing just like you, and I are. Meaning, everything is already conscious on some level, including the bacteria in our guts or even the particles (that are largely empty space) that make up matter. Even conventional science acknowledges that particles are self aware. So, everything already has a level of awareness if you ask me. Galaxies have a level of awareness beyond our comprehension. Granted, it's still the same that yes.....Awareness comes first, but everything is a co-creation if you ask me. But, that's more philosophical and I'll digress for now... :D

To claim there is no purpose, is true within a given context that life itself's purpose is only within the meaning we ourselves give it. Totally agree with you and. Meaning, purpose in the context that we ourselves, perceive things, ultimately is not real.

Yet, in the grander scale, there is most certainly a purpose if you ask me, and a purpose for the human incarnation, but not in the sense we think. Just because we can't grasp it from our own human minds, does not mean it does not exist. There's plenty of evidence of creation happening on every scale fractally at every level of being within the multi-verse. Purpose is simply expansion, creation infinitely of the One Source through every avenue possible. Even our human lives. We couldn't attempt to comprehend all potential avenues of expression within the multi-verse itself and beyond. We're here for love and only love. And that's in my opinion all we need to concern ourselves with. But, what is love?

Most people don't know what love means because we're so used to the types of love that you rightfully posted above. But, those aren't love. Love is BEING. We are not truly BEING, unless we are actually BEING.....everything in our experience. BEING our feelings....BEING our emotions....BEING our thoughts. It doesn't mean that our thoughts, feelings, emotions are only what we are, but it means that just because they don't describe who we are as Pure Being itself, they are not meant to be loved, felt, expressed and understood as aspects of ourselves as well. Everything we experience is an aspect of US. It's just that none of it ALONE defines us. The part where we get lost in materialism, is when we cling to a thought, an emotion or a feeling and believe it to be who/what we are, when in reality, we are that space itself....which is Love. On the other hand, if we claim something is NOT us, then we only create more separation ironically. Love is inclusive of ALL. It's not being kind to someone or telling someone you love them. Love is embracing first and fore most.....YOU.

Let me flat out say that many of us have emotional baggage, but we're too afraid to dive into it, which is the ULTIMATE act of love. I've only truly started to do this very recently and it's been such a wake up call of authenticity to truly shine the light of who I AM onto everything I was in shame about, and kept in the dark. My life was filled with shame. FILLED with it. Sure, I finally realized I wasn't my thoughts. I had a profound awakening experience back in 2013, but what I also started to do was spiritually bypass and you can see it in my earlier posts. I created a spiritual ego. I believed I was awakened because I realized that I wasn't my thoughts/feelings/emotions. I was Awareness itself. It was incredible!...... until I discovered, that I was simply pushing down all of my emotional garbage, which STILL kept rearing its head in place of not looking at it because I deemed it "not real" and "not me".

Spiritual bypassing is very prevalent and we all do it. My physical body communicated with me that my health was out of whack because I was not in touch with my own emotional state. That was my first step to realizing that I was talking bullshit for a long time and that I was not authentically BEING what I already AM. Awakening is an important step. But, part of the awakening process is authenticity. I already KNOW that I am Awareness, but that doesn't do me ANY good, if I'm not able to apply that to BEING human.

If we're not being authentic to ourselves first and foremost and really loving what we experience by accepting it, feeling it, expressing it, etc, then we're not BEING this human experience. It's very easy to spiritually bypass when we de-personalize everything and then anything that arises, is not US, so why we should we care? After all, we're just awareness. The rest is not important. That was a huge a learning step for me and still is.

I can only say this from my own experience that's it's been an incredible journey for me of late to embrace, and feel my way through this human experience and learn to love all of those things that are NOT perfect about my human experience and that's it's all ok to NOT be perfect in this human life by understanding that Perfection is already what IS. Learning to shine light on all aspects of my Being and uncovering so much BS that I believed for so long HAS been the awakening process for me. It HAS shown me that the way "home" is through. There is no other way. That expression has been ever so true for me.

Therefore, if you're not loving the negative feelings, the negative emotions, the negative thoughts or you're simply dis-regarding them (or even labeling them as negative), then you're not loving. Part of loving them is understanding them and seeing what they are trying to tell you and understanding your body as well. Dance and movement therapy have been a practice that I started and it's remarkable when you're able to be in touch with your body and see the tensions and the sensations that arise and how movement is restricted with certain breathing patterns as well and also restricted when WE feel restricted energetically.

Life doesn't just happen. We have to take responsibility for our own lives and our health. It's easy to get lost in nihilistic dreams about "absolute" and stuff like that, but it doesn't concern me right now, because all of those conceptual ideas will become apparent when this body dies anyway.

I have no idea if the physical reality is an illusion or not. If someone sees reality that way, then that's perfectly fine. The only illusion to me, is one of an identity crisis. When I identify too much with thoughts, I become ONLY those thoughts. When I identity too much the space between the thoughts, I forget the human half of my experience.
Last edited by Enlightened2B on Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby TemporalDissonance » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:06 pm

randomguy wrote:
td wrote:...if every ox herder decides to live blissfully in silence, how would any of us come to our understanding?

From simple recognition that the silence already is.
Understanding occurs fleetingly within it.

Recognition dissipates against the rays of Knowing.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby dijmart » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:30 pm

Holy long post Mike! You're putting smiley Jens long posts to shame! :lol:

I didn't read the whole thing, but the first 1/3 of it. I will but don't have time right now. Yeah, I'd rather say existence or awareness then love, but that's my preference. I was kinda also shining light on how you may be being misunderstood when you say unconditional love. Not saying you should change, just letting you be aware. I honestly think we are on different paths right now, that's fine, no problem with that. I find my self disagreeing with some of your posts and probably vice versa. Got to go now, just know, I love ya!!!!
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:38 pm

dijmart wrote:Oh but, this part I was going to comment-

Actually, that kind of is what it means, but not in the sense that it's an ultimately true idea or suttin. The illusion of separation is created through the spatial framework,


Something appearing to exist is not the same to me as being real.

So when I said-

Even if I know I AM awareness and only awareness, a doesn't mean the human doesn't "exist".


The human exists within awareness, but is not, can not be real, as awareness is the only Reality. So, my dreams at night may exist as an experience, but when I awake there is the knowledge they aren't "real".

As a side note, I went several years not remembering my dreams, but maybe one or two bits a year. Lately though I've been remembering them nightly for about 8 days, very odd. Boy, those suckers seem sooo real. Funny they are not, puts this apperently reality into perspective.


Right so we could say the illusion of separation exists but separation does not.

That's interesting about dreams and your conscious ability to recall them. Maybe a situation you are in now is amplifying a previously dormant vibration. Or maybe a currently active vibration is kicking up emotional energy into a guiding pattern. So many possibilities, and what fun to explore.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:57 pm

Sorry for the length of that post. Honestly, I just start writing and I can't stop. I have a blog which I write in too, so I forget sometimes that I'm on a communication forum. Apparently Jen doesn't. JK Jen! 8)

BTW, here's a good link if anyone's interested from a Vedantic point of view, the difference between understanding reality as an illusion as the way neo-advaita teaches compared to the way it is really meant to be understood.

Don't let the name of the article fool you. The article is not knocking non-duality, but he's knocking advaita (non-duality) in the way it is ms-interpreted through current teachers. The reason I'm posting it is because he references much of what I say myself. It's a long piece, but well worth the read in my opinion.

Enjoy!

http://www.energygrid.com/spirit/2014/06ap-advaitanihilism.html

Here's a portion of the article

It is much more valuable to ourselves and society to have an integrated healthy ego then it is to be disidentified from an unhealthy ego. And it is time for those in the non-dual spiritual movements to acknowledge this, and stop placing awakening or realisation as the student's primary goal. Waking up spiritually (denying the ego) is much easier than integrating psychologically. And sure, you can "wake up" when you have an unhealthy ego, but it will come at a price, especially to those around you, when your shadow is unleashed onto them. For if we do not engage consciously with our issues, they will just live lives of their own, whilst we keep trying to deny responsibility.

Disowned pathological egos can run riot in spiritual communities — especially when that includes the leader's disowned pathological ego. One has only to consider the chaos, abuse and paranoia that marked the disintegration of the Osho and Adi Da communities, to see the effects of disowned pathological egos. Fortunately today, with online communication and lower public tolerance of abuse, pathological egos do not get to play out their dysfunction in spiritual communities to the same degree, unless those communities are able to isolate their members from the rest of society in some way, which is becoming a difficult task. As the modern Advaita movement has only taken off more recently during the Internet age, serious abuse has fortunately been less likely (although it still may develop in time). But where no abuse is apparent, disowned egos are still creating a whole fantasy world of their own enlightenment, a world in which they are locked away from their own healing.

If we have faced abuse at some point in our lives, the first step in healing is to identify with being a victim. If we can't do that, we can't heal, period, because somewhere inside there is a child-self that carries the pain from our early life and really is not responsible for it. So if, for example, we insist that we create our reality and that everything that happens to us is our fault, then healing remains our of our grasp for those aspects of ourselves that are victims. Only when we fully accept victim-hood does it become okay to explore the larger picture of why our soul chose this trauma. And once we accept that everything that happens to us is chosen at a deeper level, then we become free to let go of even reality creation to non-duality. These are the layers of healing. But if we deny our trauma by accepting only the reality of our prime awareness, our trauma festers and our "awakening" becomes a hollow cover for the pathology inside. Then we are harbingers of abuse and discord rather than peace and harmony.

The thing about consciousness is that it is at the centre of all experience. And so, if we choose to focus solely upon the background awareness of all experience, then although we have an experience of the ground-state of our being, we actually have less consciousness about our mind and emotions because we are looking past them. So paradoxically, waking up without healthy integration of the ego is a move into unconsciousness. But by defining the mind as the source of all problems, this increase in unconsciousness can too easily be dismissed as irrelevant to the bigger picture of enlightenment, by those who oversimplify full integrative awakening.

What is interesting is what the other parts of self are that are still present when the ego is denied, parts that then move into the unconscious. For example, our belief systems or reality-maps. These can be very similar to other people's, but they are never identical because they are based on experience, and we all have different life experiences. And they are always changing — although at varying rates. Our reality-maps are actually the world internalised… or conversely… they are ourselves externalised. Without reality maps, we would not be able to take any action. The only people who do not have functioning reality maps are those that are in deep sleep, in a coma or dead (and even in these cases, it is still possible that an internal reality-map is still functioning for the inner realms.) So the claim to have no-self is just nonsense for anyone who is not dead, in a coma or in deep sleep. Without a reality-map you could not even locate different rooms in your own home.

The self is also made up of energetic bodies or structures. Do these bodies suddenly disappear or become irrelevant when we deny the ego? Do any blocks in them suddenly disappear? The physical body is the grossest energetic body, but when we deny the ego, does our body suddenly get a different face or lose its face? And if we had a disease before "awakening", does it suddenly disappear? If we are obese or skeletal, do we suddenly find biological balance? All these are part of the self, so the fact they remain after the ego is denied indicates that aspects of self still persists.

And beyond these are unconscious processes such as the shadow — those parts of ourselves we deny because they contradict our concept of self — the ego — and these extend into what Jung terms the collective unconscious. Given that these unconscious patterns also define the self, can we ever really be so sure that self is no longer present, when all we have to rely on is our consciousness which by definition is not aware of those aspects of ourselves that are unconscious? The alternative is to believe that when we awaken, everything — all of it — becomes conscious. But that is just a belief — we can never really know — and judging by all the people who claim to be spiritually awake, including many of the Advaita masters, this does not bear out experience.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:39 am

Enlightened2B wrote:Hey Di,

The word love that I am referring is far far different than any kind of human love and doesn't even correlate with the word kindness to be honest. I totally get you and I agree.

The word I am referring to is existence itself. It's awareness itself. Any word can have any connotation, depending on how we perceive it. It doesn't have to though. Words are just words anyway and simply ways to communicate and don't have any deeper meaning behind the letters on the screen. Yet, what it points to is of utmost importance and of course, our intention behind the words gives the words "meaning". The word Love has a deeper meaning to me and that's why I prefer it.

That aside, whether reality is an illusion or not to me, whether you want to call it maya, it's all good, but is really not overly important to me right now. I'm currently not interested in the philosophical side of things and more interested in my direct experience, in embracing and expressing my emotions, and understanding my feelings. De-personalizing everything is an escape route for many if you're not actually EMBRACING your own emotional baggage. I've learned this myself. I feel this gives me the true path to non-duality, in embracing EVERYTHING that I experience and not dis-regarding any aspect as 'separate'.


I think it was Marco Rubio who said we need more welders and less philosophers. ALthough talking about politics is against village by-laws. :lol:

The philosophical stuff was important at one point for me and perhaps will be important at a time in the future (I'd like to explore self realization more as I don't feel I understand it fully in regards to the non-duality stuff that you guys talk about), when I choose to further delve into it, but to be honest, right now, it doesn't make my experience richer. Everything might ultimately be unreal from a given perspective of Emptiness, but that's simply not our concern while here on this physical plane if you ask me as quoted by my buddy Bob who's article I posted earlier in the thread.

The only thing that is important to me right now is how can I love my own experience and in turn share that love By EMBODYING it in my experience with others.



Ok.

Even so, objects themselves are not just appearances or random arisings within consciousness. Consciousness is evident at every level of being. Even whole planets can be said to be conscious on a whole different level than human experience of consciousness. For example, a tree is an object within the perception of this body/mind (consciousness), but the tree itself is also experiencing just like you, and I are. Meaning, everything is already conscious on some level, including the bacteria in our guts or even the particles (that are largely empty space) that make up matter. Even conventional science acknowledges that particles are self aware. So, everything already has a level of awareness if you ask me. Galaxies have a level of awareness beyond our comprehension. Granted, it's still the same that yes.....Awareness comes first, but everything is a co-creation if you ask me. But, that's more philosophical and I'll digress for now... :D



You just said the only thing that is important to you is loving your experience, and then transitioned into this paragraph. Do you understand why you did that?

To claim there is no purpose, is true within a given context that life itself's purpose is only within the meaning we ourselves give it. Totally agree with you and. Meaning, purpose in the context that we ourselves, perceive things, ultimately is not real.

Yet, in the grander scale, there is most certainly a purpose if you ask me, and a purpose for the human incarnation, but not in the sense we think. Just because we can't grasp it from our own human minds, does not mean it does not exist. There's plenty of evidence of creation happening on every scale fractally at every level of being within the multi-verse. Purpose is simply expansion, creation infinitely of the One Source through every avenue possible. Even our human lives. We couldn't attempt to comprehend all potential avenues of expression within the multi-verse itself and beyond. We're here for love and only love. And that's in my opinion all we need to concern ourselves with. But, what is love?

Most people don't know what love means because we're so used to the types of love that you rightfully posted above. But, those aren't love. Love is BEING. We are not truly BEING, unless we are actually BEING.....everything in our experience. BEING our feelings....BEING our emotions....BEING our thoughts. It doesn't mean that our thoughts, feelings, emotions are only what we are, but it means that just because they don't describe who we are as Pure Being itself, they are not meant to be loved, felt, expressed and understood as aspects of ourselves as well. Everything we experience is an aspect of US. It's just that none of it ALONE defines us. The part where we get lost in materialism, is when we cling to a thought, an emotion or a feeling and believe it to be who/what we are, when in reality, we are that space itself....which is Love. On the other hand, if we claim something is NOT us, then we only create more separation ironically. Love is inclusive of ALL. It's not being kind to someone or telling someone you love them. Love is embracing first and fore most.....YOU.



Claiming that an appearance in consciousness is not consciousness, and that you are consciousness, doesn't create more separation. It removes it.

But, part of the awakening process is authenticity. I already KNOW that I am Awareness, but that doesn't do me ANY good, if I'm not able to apply that to BEING human.



You seem to be equating self improvement with seeing through self identification. Seeing that you aren't a person is the last thing any person would want. Nevertheless, if there wasn't a perceived benefit, it would never happen, and if it does happen, it's obviously not something that happens to a person, which is why talking about it can make people loopy. My suggestion is that this benefit is not personal, but is the liberation experienced from the absence of being personally identified. Any further application to the human experience is redundant, meaning, more conscious living is inevitable as the person becomes less unconscious.

If we're not being authentic to ourselves first and foremost and really loving what we experience by accepting it, feeling it, expressing it, etc, then we're not BEING this human experience. It's very easy to spiritually bypass when we de-personalize everything and then anything that arises, is not US, so why we should we care? After all, we're just awareness. The rest is not important. That was a huge a learning step for me and still is.

I can only say this from my own experience that's it's been an incredible journey for me of late to embrace, and feel my way through this human experience and learn to love all of those things that are NOT perfect about my human experience and that's it's all ok to NOT be perfect in this human life by understanding that Perfection is already what IS. Learning to shine light on all aspects of my Being and uncovering so much BS that I believed for so long HAS been the awakening process for me. It HAS shown me that the way "home" is through. There is no other way. That expression has been ever so true for me.

Therefore, if you're not loving the negative feelings, the negative emotions, the negative thoughts or you're simply dis-regarding them (or even labeling them as negative), then you're not loving. Part of loving them is understanding them and seeing what they are trying to tell you and understanding your body as well. Dance and movement therapy have been a practice that I started and it's remarkable when you're able to be in touch with your body and see the tensions and the sensations that arise and how movement is restricted with certain breathing patterns as well and also restricted when WE feel restricted energetically.

Life doesn't just happen. We have to take responsibility for our own lives and our health. It's easy to get lost in nihilistic dreams about "absolute" and stuff like that, but it doesn't concern me right now, because all of those conceptual ideas will become apparent when this body dies anyway.

I have no idea if the physical reality is an illusion or not. If someone sees reality that way, then that's perfectly fine. The only illusion to me, is one of an identity crisis. When I identify too much with thoughts, I become ONLY those thoughts. When I identity too much the space between the thoughts, I forget the human half of my experience.


Are you saying that you are not in fact having an identity crisis? How is the identity crisis the only illusion? It seems 90% of your post embodies what an existential crisis is all about, and if there is a reason you are not loving your experience, that crisis is the reason why.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Enlightened2B » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:29 am

the key master wrote:You seem to be equating self improvement with seeing through self identification. Seeing that you aren't a person is the last thing any person would want. Nevertheless, if there wasn't a perceived benefit, it would never happen, and if it does happen, it's obviously not something that happens to a person, which is why talking about it can make people loopy. My suggestion is that this benefit is not personal, but is the liberation experienced from the absence of being personally identified. Any further application to the human experience is redundant, meaning, more conscious living is inevitable as the person becomes less unconscious.


If that perspective helps you, more power to you :D

Are you saying that you are not in fact having an identity crisis? How is the identity crisis the only illusion? It seems 90% of your post embodies what an existential crisis is all about, and if there is a reason you are not loving your experience, that crisis is the reason why.


I'm saying there is no illusion to living this physical life. That's it. I don't see an illusion. The only illusion, I see, is when WE (myself at times included) believe we are a thought or an emotion or a feeling only by identifying with that. That's where the illusion lies. I'm not really sure what you're talking about otherwise. But, thanks for the response. I think you're confusing existential crisis which healing.

Am I going through healing? Absolutely! Healing involves embracing and expression of my emotions and feeling into my experience. Everything is energy. I've been studying energy healing and have come to a much greater understanding of how emotions that are suppressed lead manifest in the body as physical ailments. I'm not sure where you see a "crisis" in that. If anything, it's been the most incredible journey of my life after suffering through years of a debilitating chronic illness in finally understanding how freeing it is to be able to authentically relate to my own experience and others by allowing those suppressed emotions as a child to finally come out.

I highly recommend authentic relating and transformative dance to anyone looking to truly connect on a deeper level with themselves (embracing emotions/feelings, etc) and with each other.
Last edited by Enlightened2B on Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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