How can we know there's no death

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Onceler » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:01 pm

Excellent quote, Enlightened2B. I guess a follow up question would be, if you aren't bothered by your symptoms and you live a life undistracted by your illness, do you really need to be healed?
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:39 pm

Onceler wrote:Excellent quote, Enlightened2B. I guess a follow up question would be, if you aren't bothered by your symptoms and you live a life undistracted by your illness, do you really need to be healed?


Right. You really aren't a person in healing. And yet, realizing that is healing for the person.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:55 pm

Onceler wrote:Excellent quote, Enlightened2B. I guess a follow up question would be, if you aren't bothered by your symptoms and you live a life undistracted by your illness, do you really need to be healed?


Good question Onceler and glad you found the quote helpful like I did. One of the reasons I like Anita Moorjani is because she has a lot of good insight on disease and illness since she's been there as a cancer survivor.

If you're not bothered by symptoms and are not distracted by illness, then I'd suggest it's up to you or the person in question where they want to go. I don't feel that "healing" is in contradiction to living a joyful life. Healing if anything is more about awakening, which it has been for me. Another reason why I should use a different word other than healing like Anita says as well. I prefer the term integration. There is no healing ultimately. Emotions are neither good nor bad. They're just like anything else. They're perfectly useful aspects of our experience, just like feelings and thoughts. They only become a "problem", when we label them as good/bad and when they are stagnated as energy in motion that is no longer in motion and that's where physical manifestation of disease often (not always) stems from in a chronic sense. So, you're not really healing them as much as expressing the energy that needs to be expressed by integrating those emotions, so things are in "flow". And isn't integration always happening? There's always more to integrate in our experience.

For me, I'm not totally free of the symptoms first of all. However, I'm MUCH better than I was, so for me, there IS more healing/integrating to do.

I feel I am constantly expanding and opening up more authentically to human life when I am embracing and integrating darkness (aspects of my experience that I choose not to look at) within light. There is never an end point of expansion for any of us. What we ultimately ARE is infinite and non static. Infinity is constantly evolving. We just can't see it from our human perspectives. There is always more to experience and understand while in this human incarnation, which in turn is evolving infinity itself.

Ironically, I feel this is directly in line with non-duality self realization and is not something separate. Because you're ultimately making conscious aspects of yourself that you kept in the dark and therefore, unraveling more and more beliefs and in the process which in turn is opening up to a more authentic way of living and authenticity is when we are aligning as closely as possible with that vibration of BEING which is our true nature.

Everything is an aspect of BEING/US. Our entire experience is not separate from US. It's inclusive in a web of BEING. That's why those who have NDE's are able to see the expanded consciousness more so than we can from our limited human views. It's not that our thoughts or emotions are NOT us. They most certainly ARE us. It's that we are not ONLY them. People get trapped at one place of the "witness stage" and they stay there regurgitating that "there is no person", but what good is that when you're just pushing all the shit aside and really taking on another conceptual belief? Realizing you are not a person does not heal a chronic disease. It's just a profound liberating realization that my thoughts/feelings/emotions don't dictate alone who I AM as BEING itself. But, there's another aspect....actually living the human live. Healing a chronic disease as what I have largely done within myself, involves truly embracing, allowing and expressing emotions and most of of all.....understanding how emotions manifest in the body combined with diet/nutrition and many other lifestyle choices.

I know this is largely a non-duality forum, and much of what I say probably doesn't gel with the masses who are stuck in a very limited, rigid non-dual perspective of "absoluteness" and I get that. Yet, I feel (ironically) that truly understanding non-duality really is about embracing everything in our experience and I mean everything. The more you accept by opening up to it, by loving it, by allowing it most of all, the more you realize that nothing is ultimately outside of ourselves. Only in our beliefs do we accept/allow certain things and reject others and it becomes very prevalent with our emotions. You can't hide from the emotions, because it will manifest in some way within your body or experience that integration is needed as it's been for me. It's also related to the LoA.

Understanding how energy flows, how law of attraction works even subconsciously in our own experiences can really help us see how we attract people and circumstances in our lives. And yes, we most certainly DO attract situations in our lives that need sorting out emotionally. I saw it with myself how I was constantly attracting relationships in my life that were trying to teach me about how I was incessantly looking for love outside of myself.

These situations will CONTINUE to play out in our experience until we are conscious enough to realize that WE are manifesting these situations unconsciously as a result of unconscious beliefs/projections that we still have not integrated....whether they are manifested in the forms of experiential situations such as relationships or even within the body as disease when the chakras are closed off. They are simply messages to us energetically. We can either be in touch with these feelings and seem them as our guides or neglect them. Emotions are the same. We can see the signs of manifestation in our experience and in our body as disease OR we can see disease as something separate from us that only shows up in the body (also separate) instead of realizing that it is ALL interrelated as what we project DOES manifest in the body most of the time if we are simply open enough to our own bodies to listen. We will continue to attract the same types of situations that we are vibrationally putting out there. Integration raises the vibration.

So, ultimately, do we need to heal? Our experience will tell us where we are out of alignment and what needs to be integrated. It's constantly telling us this through manifestation, but most of us are simply not in touch with our feelings and emotional state to truly grasp the greater message that these feelings/emotions are crying out to tell us.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:05 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
Onceler wrote:Excellent quote, Enlightened2B. I guess a follow up question would be, if you aren't bothered by your symptoms and you live a life undistracted by your illness, do you really need to be healed?


Good question Onceler and glad you found the quote helpful like I did. One of the reasons I like Anita Moorjani is because she has a lot of good insight on disease and illness since she's been there as a cancer survivor.

...

I feel I am constantly expanding and opening up more authentically to human life when I am embracing and integrating darkness (aspects of my experience that I choose not to look at) within light. There is never an end point of expansion for any of us. What we ultimately ARE is infinite and non static. Infinity is constantly evolving. We just can't see it from our human perspectives. There is always more to experience and understand while in this human incarnation, which in turn is evolving infinity itself.



Right and you can understand that awareness really isn't in a human incarnation. It's the other way around.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:03 am

the key master wrote: E2B: There is always more to experience and understand while in this human incarnation, which in turn is evolving infinity itself.

Key: Right and you can understand that awareness really isn't in a human incarnation. It's the other way around.


I do understand what you're pointing to and I'm not going to disagree because I feel it's just a matter of semantics to communicate in this case. However, even so neither is inside of either ultimately in a literal sense. There is no inside or outside. Incarnation is just a dumbing down or limiting of awareness of its full capacity to experience on this physical dimension. But, it's all just BEING....being.....BEING. So, there is nothing BUT Being ultimately, therefore there can be no inside or outside of anything.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:07 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
the key master wrote: E2B: There is always more to experience and understand while in this human incarnation, which in turn is evolving infinity itself.

Key: Right and you can understand that awareness really isn't in a human incarnation. It's the other way around.


I do understand what you're pointing to and I'm not going to disagree because I feel it's just a matter of semantics to communicate in this case. However, even so neither is inside of either ultimately in a literal sense. There is no inside or outside. Incarnation is just a dumbing down or limiting of awareness of its full capacity to experience on this physical dimension. But, it's all just BEING....being.....BEING. So, there is nothing BUT Being ultimately, therefore there can be no inside or outside of anything.


Well, without awareness knowledge of the physical dimension would not be possible, so calling incarnation a dumbing down doesn't quite resonate for me. If the assertion is that there is an intelligence beyond thought and physical senses, I don't mind it, but thought and the physical senses are manifestations of that very intelligence.

Likewise, the human form isn't inside of some awareness concept, nor could awareness be limited by the idea of being human. The experience in awareness can be limited by that idea, however, while noticing the boundaries of those limitations can collapse them, leading to an experience absent those boundaries. That absence and freedom has nothing to do with the diet or meditation practices of the person, because the person literally is the boundary collapsed, and never actually limited the experience in awareness.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:17 am

the key master wrote:Well, without awareness knowledge of the physical dimension would not be possible, so calling incarnation a dumbing down doesn't quite resonate for me. If the assertion is that there is an intelligence beyond thought and physical senses, I don't mind it, but thought and the physical senses are manifestations of that very intelligence.

Likewise, the human form isn't inside of some awareness concept, nor could awareness be limited by the idea of being human. The experience in awareness can be limited by that idea, however, while noticing the boundaries of those limitations can collapse them, leading to an experience absent those boundaries. That absence and freedom has nothing to do with the diet or meditation practices of the person, because the person literally is the boundary collapsed, and never actually limited the experience in awareness.


Here's how I see it and this is just my own crack at it. Physical incarnation is simply aspects of Spirit that are "limited" from its totality while experiencing here in the physical incarnation. There are multiple aspects of spirit, experiencing simultaneously in multiple lives throughout the multiverse, while other aspects that are still in spirit. Meaning there are multiple selves fractally....and incarnation is a lot more complicated than any of us understand from our human perspectives. Ultimately, it's all just a play of energy. There are even reports from some profound NDE's (multiple) that there are soulless humans. Meaning, I think there's a lot that we don't understand. So, I'll leave it at that. :D

Freedom itself might not be dependent upon any kind of practice in particular, no doubt. Yet, meditation is a profound instrument. Meditation does not have to be a formal practice to be effective. I sure as hell don't practice it formally. Meditation is something I do throughout the day now, even while walking. It's just noticing and allowing. So, meditation can absolutely help one lead to freedom if they don't cling to it for results.

I don't know what's defined as the person and what's not, but if you ask me, it's unconscious beliefs that limit the experience.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:42 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
the key master wrote:Well, without awareness knowledge of the physical dimension would not be possible, so calling incarnation a dumbing down doesn't quite resonate for me. If the assertion is that there is an intelligence beyond thought and physical senses, I don't mind it, but thought and the physical senses are manifestations of that very intelligence.

Likewise, the human form isn't inside of some awareness concept, nor could awareness be limited by the idea of being human. The experience in awareness can be limited by that idea, however, while noticing the boundaries of those limitations can collapse them, leading to an experience absent those boundaries. That absence and freedom has nothing to do with the diet or meditation practices of the person, because the person literally is the boundary collapsed, and never actually limited the experience in awareness.


Here's how I see it and this is just my own crack at it. Physical incarnation is simply aspects of Spirit that are "limited" from its totality while experiencing here in the physical incarnation. There are multiple aspects of spirit, experiencing simultaneously in multiple lives throughout the multiverse, while other aspects that are still in spirit. Meaning there are multiple selves fractally...


That's what I'm seeing also. This is where I transition into the idea of a DNA footprint, to incorporate the emotional interaction between human beings, and how that interaction can take place even after the death of one individual through consciousness of another. Some folks speak about that footprint interaction as spirit body or spirit influence, and some other folks even report seeing those very spirits. Rather than talking about a mind split, they'll talk about spirit attack. Rather than go unconscious, they'll say a spirit has over cloaked you. Within those parallel frameworks we can connect and roll out, infinitely, which is why some other folks say we are in the midst of an infinite regression. Although if it can be transcended, it ain't infinite.

Never the less fascinating stuff.



Freedom itself might not be dependent upon any kind of practice in particular, no doubt. Yet, meditation is a profound instrument. Meditation does not have to be a formal practice to be effective. I sure as hell don't practice it formally. Meditation is something I do throughout the day now, even while walking. It's just noticing and allowing. So, meditation can absolutely help one lead to freedom if they don't cling to it for results.

I don't know what's defined as the person and what's not, but if you ask me, it's unconscious beliefs that limit the experience.


We can separate conceptually allowance and noticing, which doesn't mean there's an actual thing that allows stuff and some other thing that notices stuff. In this sense allowance can take place when resistance is noticed, which doesn't mean one was a person in resistance that transitioned into allowance. What it means is that you aren't that person, and noticing that is the absence of resistance.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Onceler » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:24 pm

Thanks for your thorough answer, E2B. I agree, I don't fit into the non-dual bubble anymore either. In fact, surprisingly, after years of really caring, I care very little about spirituality. It struck me that perhaps we never heal.....and I'm being very general about this in terms of maladies (emotional/physical). These conditions are simply a part of being human. I mean we are slowly dying, right? I have several chronic conditions that are mildly irritating and never really go away. My knee is the most bothersome as it keeps me from running and I haven't run for over a year. But I've managed to do other things and figure out life without running.....one issue resolves or heals and another pops up, or as I used to think about it when I did construction; you have one or two primary pain nodes and they simply move locations throughout the body.

I have had a massive emotional overhaul in the last four years.....I'm not even sure what happened. I do know that I have felt a lot of seemingly repressed emotions and they have cleared out like hangers on a at a party when the booze runs out. Guess I'm not serving them anymore. Fear is significantly reduced or totally gone, can't quite tell. I'm interested to see the effects of this emotional clearing on my body, but so far the effects seem mainly psychological and cognitive in nature, not so much somatic, although it is easier to stick to a healthy diet without the emotional triggers to engage in unhealthy eating.

The health of the psyche and the health of the body may be a differentuated processes.....a clearing and healing of the psyche may only go so far to healing the body, which is in a decaying orbit, after all.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Onceler wrote:Thanks for your thorough answer, E2B. I agree, I don't fit into the non-dual bubble anymore either. In fact, surprisingly, after years of really caring, I care very little about spirituality. It struck me that perhaps we never heal.....and I'm being very general about this in terms of maladies (emotional/physical). These conditions are simply a part of being human. I mean we are slowly dying, right? I have several chronic conditions that are mildly irritating and never really go away. My knee is the most bothersome as it keeps me from running and I haven't run for over a year. But I've managed to do other things and figure out life without running.....one issue resolves or heals and another pops up, or as I used to think about it when I did construction; you have one or two primary pain nodes and they simply move locations throughout the body.


The issue many find with spirituality is that it becomes all about ego and how to transcend the go. The ego knows damn well it isn't interested in the loss of itself, so the idea of ego transcendence turns into a game where you have an awareness mind and a mind in awareness battling with each other for one common purpose, ego survival, which is why those with authenticity are often repelled by what they see going on. When E2B talks about spiritual bypassing, I frequently find myself nodding in agreement. I don't have a problem with folks saying they are peeps in healing because everyone is in healing. It isn't that there is something wrong with how the collective engine functions, but that it functions unconsciously. With greater consciousness of dynamics your ability to navigate really does increase, but not in a directly controlling way. The difference between navigating and being navigated comes together in this moment, which doesn't prevent you from using thinking and behavior to move into future in a harmonious way. It just doesn't make you separate.

Healing work certainly affects the body, which functions as a component to an ever changing world of things. Body preservation or the desire to live, ironically, often serve as a driving force for the entry into inquiry or the becoming conscious movement. Or, we might even say, the desire to live is what makes human awakening possible. I might have a hard time calling that a human desire, but my word lawyers have the day off.

Happy Holidays.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Onceler » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:10 am

I think I hear what you're saying, Key, but I'm just not down with the ego stuff anymore.....in fact, I'm very happy with my life in a way I never was, perhaps I've merged with my ego.....if it's bypassing it feels good and sane.

Thanks for the holiday wishes and same to you!
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:54 am

Thanks Onceler, and I know you've always been open about your experiences here.

Yeah, I totally hear you. I think every situation is unique. No, you don't have to do any kind of "healing work" so to speak if you ask me. Everybody has stuff going on in the body. You do what you can do. You eat the best you can without obsessing over it and so on. I think it entirely dependent on the situation, the dis-ease, person, etc. I had no choice but to embark down a path towards real "integrating" (trying to get away from the word healing), because my life called for it. The quality of my life sucked big time and it's also helped me be more in touch with my feelings/emotions in a greater sense.

Honestly, I'd like to really get back into the Self realization thing, with inquiry and stuff because I've really left it behind and would like to integrate that more so into my life. I feel out of alignment with that stuff to be honest right now....at least in the sense that it's talked about in non-duality teachings.

BTW, on a side note, I checked out the Bentihno Massaro group on facebook since we talked about it in another thread and I got a REALLY weird energy vibe from that group. It had a very "cultish" feel to it. It's not his teachings. I vibe with some of the stuff he says big time, although I don't with other stuff (pretty much exactly what WW and key mentioned). But, it's the people that follow him. It seems like they're eating out of his hand at every word he says. Something felt very off for me. I don't know.

Anyway happy holiday folks.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Postby the key master » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:38 am

Onceler wrote:I think I hear what you're saying, Key, but I'm just not down with the ego stuff anymore.....in fact, I'm very happy with my life in a way I never was, perhaps I've merged with my ego.....if it's bypassing it feels good and sane.

Thanks for the holiday wishes and same to you!


Thanks Oncey. Yea I really don't like the ego concept, but we're on a Tolle forum so what can we do? Being happy with life is a lot easier when the mind isn't in the process of battling itself.
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