How can we know there's no death

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smiileyjen101
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:36 am

Jen said: You don't have to experience a particular event to notice the difference in those who have experienced it, and if willing learn from their experiences. It's called having empathy.
Ash said:
IMO, this has nothing to do with empathy.
Karmarider said:I don't think it's fair to draw conclusions about empathy.
Wiki Empathy is the capacity to recognize feelings that are being experienced by another sentient being.
dictionary - em·pa·thy  noun
1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
Guess I'm looking at it from the other side of the perspective of experience. After 30 years of it, I guess I should be used to it.

Efforts on my part to assist science and humanity understand and accept include -

Subjecting myself willingly and voluntarily to
- drug testing and chemical analysis of drug effects on my physical being - all negative for 'possible' influence of the effects described; and comparison with drug induced hallucenogenic experiences and mind states disturbances as known side effects of particular drugs; even though at the time it was already known that I was not under any drug treatment.

- physio-analytical testing including EEGs, CT scans, and MRI scans - all showing no possible causal linkages between my experiences and the effects of them and any knowable workings of my brain activity in different neurally stimulated exercises - my brain is normal.

-psychiatric and psychosomatic analysis including against standard criteria of just about every personality disorder, memory disorder, scale of understanding the difference between dream state, fear state, perspectives, reality, reasonalbleness - I am 'normal' and do not suffer from any known mental or physical affliction that can even remotely explain it.

-participating in studies and courses working with the effects and the experience - now that is a pleasure because it starts from the premise that we experienced exactly what we say we did, and moves on from there.

I have been participating in the scientific and humanistic study for more than 30 years now. There are many many thousands who are doing the same.

Quite frankly, if it didn't happen I wouldn't be who I am now.

You may see it as a perspective of something outside of your experience.
As males you can't experience childbirth either, this experience is - how as a mother who adores my children can I say this experience is more, more life-changing, more gobsmacking, more eye opening, more enlightening, more everything. So more everything that even the death of two of my children and many of my friends and family since is met with gratitude and generousity - the true balance of love.

It's not about ruffling my feathers - please just say you haven't had that experience so you cannot judge.

Whether you are interested in reading, hearing or even as much as you can understanding those who have had it, or those that do want to learn because they see something different in the way those of us who have this first hand knowledge approach life - don't call us delusional or imagining or liars, or acting in fear when none of that is true - and as far as science can and does prove that, I have the proof of that and so do many others by being willing to allow science to use us as guinea pigs for their latest measures and theories.

In 30 years no one has given me any other explanation that hasn't been disproved. What more can I do? I don't need to convince you I don't care what you believe, but please be fair - the truth is you cannot judge the path of another soul, you can only be empathetic in considering another's experience.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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smiileyjen101
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:16 am

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant.

We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift.

Albert Einstein.
Balancing an equilibrium of them in every single moment is possible, if you do not employ fear as your master.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by karmarider » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:44 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:It's not about ruffling my feathers - please just say you haven't had that experience so you cannot judge.
I haven't had the experience so I don't judge. Sincerely.
In 30 years no one has given me any other explanation that hasn't been disproved. What more can I do? I don't need to convince you I don't care what you believe, but please be fair
That's already happening, love. This is just talk.
- the truth is you cannot judge the path of another soul, you can only be empathetic in considering another's e.xperience.
Here's to honoring each soul.

Gangnam style.

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far_eastofwest
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by far_eastofwest » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:15 am

consciousness being dependent on certain senses, it seems very limiting to list just 5, there may be others we are not aware of having (need to read some old sci fi fiction to get the idea on this one).
For example, peoples melatonin levels are sensitive to light, to the back of the knees in one experiment did the trick... lol.. the seeing knees... goes with the headless tao thing.

Permanent death defined as rotting. Mind you the irish were big on this, hence laying out the body for a couple of days in the lounge room in case it decides to 'wake' and make sure a bit of rot has set in before interring the remains. To be sure to be sure....

Maybe we are like computers.... turned on and off, once off there is only a short window of time to restart before the body deteriorates like machines do when left too long not turned on and then won't work again ....

The shortfall of this veiw is the computer while 'off' or 'reversably dead' does not update or have new information to share when it is restarted.... whereas the reversably dead people, have experiences which they remember to varying degrees when their brain was not doing brain activity stuff. Had they simply been 'off' then they would wake up where they left off, with no interim experience to share when they restarted.


I'm not sure about it at all, but i did hear the man who lived in the house behind me calling out for his wife ..... he had been dead for a month though i found out later.... ??? (she had moved out after he passed away).
So maybe there is some spirit thing separate from the body? He certainly qualified for the rotting part... dead and vocal, maybe there is a term for that.

I can't say whether consciousness ends at death, but i certainly know from experience it starts before 'birth'.... its a pregnancy thing i think, you know babies suck their thumbs in the womb? and react to strong lights, being poked at, loud noises etc. They spend periods asleep and awake. They recognise music that they heard before birth after they are born.... and nearly every baby a that has a mum that like housecleaning settles to the sound of the vacuum cleaner... such a familiar noise.


So its all pretty interesting really.... I have no 'argument' to put forward, i think its simply a case of not dismissing certain possibilities.
:-)
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Especially when there is no cat....

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ashley72
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:23 am

smileyJen101 wrote:It's not about ruffling my feathers - please just say you haven't had that experience so you cannot judge.
I had a NDE myself about five years ago around the time the agoraphobia condition appeared. I posted about it some while back. I thought I was going to have a cardiac arrest after a night of drugs & alcohol abuse. I obviously didn't died but the experience of maybe dying got as close as you probably can go mentally. I was lying on the floor of my bedroom going through the motions of having a cardiac arrest. It felt so incredibly real in that moment.

During the NDE I was seriously scared, it was an absolute living nightmare. During that fear episode I begged for my life to god and sworn never to drink & do drugs again.

Interestingly, the fear of death occurred because of strong identification with thoughts & emotions I had been having about things that occurred leading up to that night.

That fear of death didn't leave that night... it stayed for more than a year... where I used to cling to my chest while I had little panic attacks about dying.

So I know what it feels like to nearly die. I'm probably one of the most qualified people to talk about this issue.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:39 am

In case anyone is interested in watching a lecture on purely scientific research, primarily into children's NDE's, here's a very informative 2 hrs from Dr Melvin Morse given at the Cincinnati Children's Hospital. The audio and video quality aren't always the best, but remain tolerable.

Certainty is a sure sign of a closed mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RnMhWXn1G4&feature=plcp

Edit: Ash, Dr Morse talks specifically about your type of experience.

WW

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ashley72
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:58 am

Webwanderer wrote:Certainty is a sure sign of a closed mind.
WW, if this was directed at me... you're mistaken. Quite the opposite really. I remain skeptical because I don't want to keep speculating about my state of Consciousness in relation to a future event (permanent death).

I'd rather stay grounded in the present moment... than let my thinking mind conjure up all sorts of ideas based on a future event.

The most important aspect of Tolle's teachings is living Firmly in the Here & Now... not theories about the model of consciousness.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:53 am

That fear of death didn't leave that night... it stayed for more than a year... where I used to cling to my chest while I had little panic attacks about dying.

So I know what it feels like to nearly die. I'm probably one of the most qualified people to talk about this issue.
Dear Ash, I can certainly have empathy and sympathy for you in this scary experience. I can even understand how this might scare you with regards to death and dying, and empathise there too.

You have mentioned you haven't read this account or that account, as gently as I can, and still with appreciation and compassion,I don't think we're talking about the same thing Ash.

Portions of my experience are in the early-ish posts of this thread. http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... =47&t=8712
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:39 am

The Here and Now includes a whole lot of wonderful stuff; thoughts, ideas, speculating, pondering, thinking, finding, discoveries, adventures, learning, doing, exploring, inventing, making, creating, life after life times, all possibilities are Here and Now. The Here and Now is Life Itself you cannot avoid being Here and Now, and the Here and Now is Infinite, it is not section of time, it is knowing you are beyond time---

All is consciousness is no longer theories.

The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can't be created or destroyed. It can change forms, but it does not die.

We are energy, pure energy as consciousness. Energy doesn't end at death. It's not a theory.

Here and Now is infinite--when you realize you are always Here and Now and you don't have work at it.

The basic foundation of Tolle's teaching is based on the premise of non-duality. Non-dual means "not two". Science has proven that there is only one ---they call this oneness, Intelligence, or Energy. Energy is light and light is information and information is knowing and knowing is---ta da---Consciousness/Mind.

There is One Source, it is pure Intelligence and it is without beginning and without end; it is everything, that means it's you.

Quantum science calls it the Super Unified Field. ( I call it God) It is A field of intelligence. Everything comes from this single Superstring field which is like a single infinite, eternal, universal ocean of intelligence. It's swirling right here and now as your consciousness. It's what you are---because everything is 'one with' this Consciousness.

None of this is really speculation, we do know for a fact that there is only one Consciousness and we know we are Conscious. This Infinite Mind is appearing as you and me. We know for a fact that Life is not solid, it is intelligence, it is informed Light. The discovery that information could travel as energy gave us the internet and opened a new world of instant communication.

Life is what you are and Life is not inert. Everything is conscious which means it is alive. You could be dead to Life, as in, not really 'awakened', or deeply ignoring reality or refusing to participate, but since you are pure information, you will never die.

How can you die? Energy does not die. It transforms, but it does not die.

Now, all of society is beginning to know everything is consciousness. This is why so many people started studying Tolle’s work; that book appeared as a reflection of the general population waking up to more Light.

Hundreds of years ago explorers found out the world was flat, that the Earth revolves around the Sun, and new continents were found.

Not everyone had to sail across the sea and come to the new land in order to know it existed. They took their word for it. Everyone just knows now, we just know and we don't have to go see for our self. It's a shift in consciousness. It is within consciousness where these new views make a difference in our lives.

Now quantum science, over the last 80 years of tests and theory, have finally let the cat out of the bag; we are all one at the level of the quantum intelligence--- and so now we 'awaken' to this and we all begin to live our lives differently. We can do what we will with the new information, we gain freedom, knowing the world is not 'material and solid' and everything is 'idea' and all is mind. This changes the way we think and do and be. This brings freedom from the fear of 'death' in many ways. It makes us realize that what we think affect the 'holographic' images we call 'our world". This is all important to know, if you like to learn new things and want to know what Life is all about and what to know who you are.

All this discovery opens our mind and we start to think in new ways, our character is transformed, we grow spiritually and intellectually. Now being in this world has deeper meaning to us. We find greater peace and joy knowing everything is consciousness. Knowing we are part of an eternal Presence, changes us. It opens up a whole new world of possibilities for each of us as individuals. We can sense our connection with this Infinite Source. The freedom from our old limited view of the world expands us, we become much more open and our mind can understand things in wholeness. Being fearless and less concerned about things, we can find new and inspired ways to live in the world and share those inspirations, inventions, insights, innovations or creations.

Don’t sell your self short, be all that you are, expand your self and do what you can for yourself and the world to the best you can

While you'll eventually exit this particular reality, you will remain you. Since energy does not die, and the observer is pure energy and you are the observer you will forever continue in more and more 'nows.' Because Now is All There Is. Now is not going to die and you are this Now. Your consciousness will always be in the present. You will be you just as now. You are the perfect balance between the infinite past and the infinite future; all.

I know that when we leave this dimension we will continue to have new adventures, we will meet new friends and we will rejoin our loved ones and find our old friends.

It's all Here and Now. Rejoice, God is Good and God is Love
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:21 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
That fear of death didn't leave that night... it stayed for more than a year... where I used to cling to my chest while I had little panic attacks about dying.

So I know what it feels like to nearly die. I'm probably one of the most qualified people to talk about this issue.
Dear Ash, I can certainly have empathy and sympathy for you in this scary experience. I can even understand how this might scare you with regards to death and dying, and empathise there too.
I'm not looking for empathy or sympathy. You asked whether I was qualified to judge other NDE'r testimony based on my own life experiences. I consider I am based on my life experience. BTW, This is not my only experience with near death experiences... my father also died of a sudden attack and I was with him at the time. I also had two friends of mine both in their late 20's died of sudden heart attacks around the same time. I had two work colleagues have sudden heart attacks, one survived the other didn't. I've also had 3 people I knew quite well commit suicide. All these events happened in a period of about 3-4 years. All these events all happened before my own near death experience.
smiileyjen101 wrote: You have mentioned you haven't read this account or that account, as gently as I can, and still with appreciation and compassion,I don't think we're talking about the same thing Ash.
That's ok if you don't think I nearly died. I don't think a near death experience is the same as permanent death anyway. That's my point... its an experience we can talk about later.... permanent death is an irreversible process.... so there is no return from such an event.

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ashley72
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by ashley72 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:34 am

SandyJoy wrote: The basic foundation of Tolle's teaching is based on the premise of non-duality. Non-dual means "not two". Science has proven that there is only one ---they call this oneness, Intelligence, or Energy. Energy is light and light is information and information is knowing and knowing is---ta da---Consciousness/Mind.

There is One Source, it is pure Intelligence and it is without beginning and without end; it is everything, that means it's you.

Quantum science calls it the Super Unified Field. ( I call it God) It is A field of intelligence. Everything comes from this single Superstring field which is like a single infinite, eternal, universal ocean of intelligence. It's swirling right here and now as your consciousness. It's what you are---because everything is 'one with' this Consciousness.
That is all well and good. However, physical death does occur and folk will turn to dust. This is all witness by the living... who haven't yet turned to dust. :wink:

Maybe the NDE'r are right & all these physical forms that appear are interconnected and there is only this one unified wave structure made from a trillion trillion trillion spherical wavelet which appear as Electrons. Maybe this wave structure of Electrons is in fact Universal Consciousness (omnipresent). However, all these wonderful theories take me away from the HERE & NOW into the world of ideas and imagination.

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by rideforever » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:14 pm

ashley72 wrote:However, all these wonderful theories take me away from the HERE & NOW into the world of ideas and imagination.
No sh**t.

But ... that is exactly what you want. That's why you say it is wonderful. You don't want to be in the H*N.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:17 pm

ashley72 wrote:That's ok if you don't think I nearly died. I don't think a near death experience is the same as permanent death anyway. That's my point... its an experience we can talk about later.... permanent death is an irreversible process.... so there is no return from such an event.
This is still a strawman argument. Our discussion is not about those who do not return to their physical focus, it's about those that do - those that have a conscious experience, do to the loss of bodily viability, that transcends the body and return to report on their experience. There is no debate on whether these experiences take place, only some consideration on their true nature.

WW

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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by rideforever » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:46 pm

I do this meditation where I visualise my body burning on a ghat, the body chars and turns black, then grey, and then the wind blows it away.

I would advise you to do the same. And meet death, face death, approach death. It is best to be prepared for what I imagine is a painful time for people who are so massively unprepared.

What good is all the talk.

You don't really want to know, that's why you talk.
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Re: How can we know there's no death

Post by randomguy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:59 pm

However, all these wonderful theories take me away from the HERE & NOW into the world of ideas and imagination.
I would just like to say to you Ash, that in the light of your many losses that you have this resolve to the present moment on your own authority when belief could offer a peace of sorts is in my experience reflective of an attitude of awakening.
There is no debate on whether these experiences take place, only some consideration on their true nature.
That's really an excellent point and a good question. What is the true nature of experience itself?


Also as an aside, in reading this thread I recall a quote of Tolle's - "Being right is a form of violence". It's probably just more silly talk from that little man, though.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
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