Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by TemporalDissonance » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:19 pm

sloth wrote:And it is something that allows me to accept any situation, any challenge, any 'problem', so how can it not be this mystical/supernatural state of being!"
Whoever said the state of being majority of the world is in is the non-mystical/non-supernatural state of being which all other states should be compared to?
Ask yourself this question. Look for it yourself. Give me the proof.
sloth wrote:That's what I'm getting at with this thread: mindfulness, what it is and what it is not. I'm looking for a realistic interpretation of it.
What do you know of mindfulness? What do you know of it so far? I haven't read all the posts, so I may have missed something already :)

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sloth
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by sloth » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:44 pm

TemporalDissonance wrote:Whoever said the state of being majority of the world is in is the non-mystical/non-supernatural state of being which all other states should be compared to?
Ask yourself this question. Look for it yourself. Give me the proof.
I have no idea. Is this a question for me to ponder or something that needs to be researched?

The Buddha? Tolle maybe?
What do you know of mindfulness? What do you know of it so far? Where do you know it from?
I know nothing of mindfulness except a pure conceptual understanding.
Well, I have read Tolle TPON, I have listened to Alan Watts recordings on youtube, I have read into Buddhism, I have read some of the Pali and Tripikata (spelling?) canons, I have read some of Zen Mind, Beginner Mind (though it is difficult to grasp) and I have found other resources on google/youtube. I am currently looking into Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.

I have also been on a meditation course and taken time to practice this.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by TemporalDissonance » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:01 pm

Ok now sloth, can I ask what is your intention in meditation and PON and the readings you are doing? To understand mindfulness?

And the question about states of being is for you to ponder, but if you read PON, you may have an idea... Have you read "A New Earth"? If not, I suggest reading this as it will help your understanding of other writings.

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sloth
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by sloth » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:07 pm

At first, to improve my confidence.

And then, I came to the belief that eternal joy is better than mild dissatisfaction and that enlightenment would be better than any material gains. But I am told that this too is an egoic desire, and I do not know how you can obtain something that you do not actively seek. It seems like a paradox.

A New Earth seems to be saying essentially the same thing as TPON.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by TemporalDissonance » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:14 pm

Yes, A New Earth is similar but makes certain ideas clearer... like the ego.

What is your conceptual understanding of mindfulness? Can you put it into practice?

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sloth
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by sloth » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:16 pm

TemporalDissonance wrote:What is your conceptual understanding of mindfulness? Can you put it into practice?
My conceptual understanding is as it has been described in this thread. No it has no use in practice, except maybe for the fact that I am now sometimes able to allow irrational emotions to subside when I am aware of them. I do not feel mindful, just a temporary release of negative energy when that happens.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by TemporalDissonance » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:27 pm

sloth wrote: My conceptual understanding is as it has been described in this thread. No it has no use in practice, except maybe for the fact that I am now sometimes able to allow irrational emotions to subside when I am aware of them. I do not feel mindful, just a temporary release of negative energy when that happens.
Good! Continue with this and focus on the present moment as thoughts and emotions arise. Feel the emotions rise and subside. Accept them as they are. Mindfulness is being present.

The question of obtaining something you are not actively seeking will answer itself in due time. Focus on the present moment.

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sloth
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by sloth » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:37 pm

TemporalDissonance wrote:Good! Continue with this and focus on the present moment as thoughts and emotions arise. Feel the emotions rise and subside. Accept them as they are. Mindfulness is being present.
It's about the most progress I've made, I've been stuck in a rut for a while.

Actually, the biggest problem is probably that I do not have enough negative emotions, so when I occasionally feel an irrational surge of unnecessary annoyance or some sort of paranoia, it is not enough for me to practice as such.

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TemporalDissonance
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by TemporalDissonance » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:16 pm

sloth wrote:Actually, the biggest problem is probably that I do not have enough negative emotions, so when I occasionally feel an irrational surge of unnecessary annoyance or some sort of paranoia, it is not enough for me to practice as such.
Why not practice on the other thoughts, the "good" and "normal"?

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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by DavidB » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:34 am

Acceptance does alleviate suffering yes.



But in what sense?
Oneness is already whole, not in need of being found, fixed or realized.

What is, is already what it is, always and forever. When we come to know this, we stop seeking, as the seeking for what wasn't ever missing is what created the apparent sense of separateness. Seeking for wholeness ironically, is what creates the sense of duality, a sense of not wholeness, something to be gained.

Acceptance of what is then, eliminates the frustration of seeking, as the need to be whole is satisfied with whatever is.


The best we can do is simply accept reality for what it is.

I have only one motivation myself, to be at peace. When I'm at peace, I enjoy life more and am better able to love those around me with an open heart.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:45 am

Sloth I firstly want to acknowledge that yes I have intently absorbed your posts, I too have laughed in joy, trembled in the drama, been touched by the niggles of seeds of perspective. The first paragraph of your long post in reply to mine was delightful, absolutely delightful, all those 'competing' nuances of experiencing my perspectives, just delightful!! Whether I can respond to each and every nuance of them is in no way any reflection on the value that I place on them. I'm, and we all are, honoured by your sharing of them. Know that firstly.

It's the essence of Namaste - in Sanskrit ... one 'defining' of it
"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you
which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."
Your 'seeds' have been responded to by the light and the love and the awareness and capacity and willingness of all who have read (seen and acknowledged, or unseen and unknown ---hi folks!!! :D ) your sharing. What each will take or make of them will be within their own capacity, awareness and willingness. In acceptance we share perspectives without making enemy, obstacle, means to an end.

For that, in this place, thank you.

As is the nature of things - growth and change - where you were when you wrote a page back is not where you are now, the wonderful responses you've received - within your awareness, ability/capacity and willingness to absorb and interact with - take into yourself - has already changed you.

The most recent .... noticing....(not judging not criticising, not any thing but noticing and responding to...) that sheds 'light' ----
Sloth said: Actually, the biggest problem is probably that I do not have enough negative emotions, so when I occasionally feel an irrational surge of unnecessary annoyance or some sort of paranoia, it is not enough for me to practice as such.
Wow!! Sit with this ^

Does it make sense to you that one would go 'looking' for drama and opposition, 'hidden' things etc to feel that intensity of separateness of 'right' and 'wrong' of 'should' and 'should not', of impotence in the face of this omnipotence --- for me it does.

I'm not entirely sure but I think ET speaks of it in terms of the ego trying desperately to reassert its (out of) control status and perspective in fear.

The notion of okay so you think you've 'got' this, try this on for size then!!

It's as funny and sweet and endearing and acceptable and wonder-ful as any experience.

I can't in honesty or any skeric of accuracy project, but when you cuddle into your labradors, when you forget yourself, when you stop holding onto the notion that you are human and they are canine, when you melt in the shared senses into the totality of the moment... is it full, or is it empty?
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:46 am

There are some things that rocked my boat too ...
Sometimes reading your posts make me laugh out loud, I am not sure why. Maybe it is because the choices I present for these (moral) dilemmas sometimes seem to be at such ridiculous extremes and you highlight this, so it seems funny.
I'm thrilled that you notice this!! And that it tickles you!!
Life is seriously-funny and humorously-serious - the equilibrium along the lines of serious and not would/does include all of those nuances, all feeding in, whether noticed or not in our perspective, our standing-under - our understanding.

Sometimes when we are being our most 'serious' we are the most absurd. It's brilliant that you've noticed that.

Authenticity in responding to 'what is' can be absolutely gob-smackingly hilarious in the interplays between perspectives.

This can by mis-interpretation, by perspective, by projection, by clinging to notions of what is right/wrong, be interpreted as callousness or disregard for the 'seriousness' of a situation, no doubt, and, in totality that's okay too.

Already the 'seed' of the essence of 'is this true, is this kind, is this necessary' was permeating, even if not cognitively processed.
Sloth said: I had an experience of this once a year ago, it was an eternity of suffering I saw, in which I believed everybody to be "damned if they do and damned if they don't". It was as if in those moments - 10 seconds, a minute, I don't know how long it was before I snapped out of it - I had came to that point of eternal return, it was not joy but quite the opposite. Or maybe to you that is what true joy is, but I cannot understand why enlightened people would describe it as joy.
Hand on heart in compassion for that experience Sloth. What if one were to recognise this (the underlined) as a perspective made outside of the actual experience being viewed - the balance of which would be 'not damned if they do, and not damned if they don't' and everything between the two extremes is the 'opportunity' that we are given in experience.
It was like an existential crisis where my brain was just saying to me "Shit happens, there is nothing you can do about it, *shrug* ". A kind of divine irony if you will, a cosmic joke at my expense, a black comedy where God is laughing at the sinners in Hell.
Shit does happen, and sometimes no there is no thing you can do about it. Then what? It's a kind of beyond ethics, beyond morality, there is no answer to 'what ought I do? there is no doing, there is no 'I' in it. Often I find this 'existential crisis' is when we fail to recognise that the situation is not 'about us', it's not within our capacity to respond because basically its not within our journey, we haven't been called to respond, it's not our 'burden' but like superheroes we jump up going what shall we do, what shall we do... (quick maybe if I put my underwear on over my clothes and grow superpowers I can stop this... :wink: ) and if we can't respond then we become judge and jury.

What you experienced was one aspect of this. One aspect - one perception.

In this moment, in this situation, it is not 'for us' to do anything, we're witnesses in a sense, and yes sometimes the 'witnessing' and even thinking about, musing about, etc feeds into something in which we can respond at some other time that is of our own journey, that is within the path of our journey, or grows as an awareness of our capacity to respond... it will undoubtedly widen the awareness and perspectives of the sh..... 'it'.

It feeds into our authentic responding, all but intuitively, instinctively with our deeper awareness having kind of 'processed' the equilibrium and the cause-effect.

'God' - the all in which all things are known and experienced does indeed laugh, and cry, without restraint. Omnipotence - unlimited, unrestrained.

In my perceived experience 'hell' is only the choice to separate and judge oneself and others as separate, as right/wrong and choose to hide and cower in the shadows in fear, rather than be the light.

Sometimes we must to do things that do not please us at that time because we know that later, it will be good for us. We will sacrifice short-lived pleasure for long-term health and prosperity, even if it is not now, but later.
ET suggests in consciousness one would 'notice' and accept - 'this is what is required of me in this moment' - it still does encompass awareness, ability and willingness. With acceptance one drops the resistance to, and in progressive expansion it 'may' (if aware, able and willing) expand into enjoyment - how can I pour joy into this, and 'may' also lead to enthusiasm, knowing one is the arrow flying towards a target and putting joy into this moment.

In essence there is no 'long term', there is only honouring this moment, this moment, this moment.
If the consequences cause us to suffer and it was of our own accord that the consequences unravelled, it was the wrong decision.
Perception causes us to suffer.
Consequences just 'are', the (eternally) unfolding now.
There's that impotence/omnipotence 'thingy' again. :wink: swap the underwear on the outside for the cloak and the shadows?
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by Enlightened2B » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:51 pm

I was thinking about people who after reading A New Earth or PoN often try to conceptualize everything still thinking they are this "body", but rarely do people acknowledge that they are NOT the body because they view consciousness/awareness as something that comes from within the body/brain. Acknowledging that consciousness stemmed from OUTSIDE the body would automatically be that "click" that changes everything and there would be no need to further conceptualize ANYTHING.

Then again, how do you prove or disprove this to someone? You simply can't. What's known is known. What is truth is truth. However, it is NOT known where consciousness actually stems from outside of what we might theorize or draw perspectives on. You go through self enquiry. You eliminate everything which you can't be. There is that one sense of "being" that is left over. Where is that being felt? You come to the conclusion that it is being felt....no where. That's it! However.....mind comes in and says.....well how do I know that this isn't coming from the brain? I believe that's the point where we might start drawing theories based on what is likely rather than what IS.

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sloth
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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by sloth » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:36 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:I was thinking about people who after reading A New Earth or PoN often try to conceptualize everything still thinking they are this "body", but rarely do people acknowledge that they are NOT the body because they view consciousness/awareness as something that comes from within the body/brain. Acknowledging that consciousness stemmed from OUTSIDE the body would automatically be that "click" that changes everything and there would be no need to further conceptualize ANYTHING.
I find it hard to imagine this idea. Do I exist outside of my body? I mean, I get what you are saying - the ever present 'I' that created everything that is exists behind all forms of life, indeed outside of this transient body which is just another physical instrument through which the 'I' can experience reality (although I don't think we can know this for certain, it's just one of many plausible explanations). But life can only be experienced from one perspective at a time, thus creating the illusion of separateness between 'self' and 'other'. The physical world, by this theory is a manifestation of the 'I's imagination and the 'I' sometimes experiences its own creation from the veil of illusion believing that it did not create this itself so there can be an element of surprise or unpredictability.

It's always been apparent to me that I am not my body, even before I read ET, I thought I was simply the 'receptor' (the 'real self', the 'other mind', the 'I am' call it what you will) of bodily symptoms - pain, touch/feel, stress, etc. But I also thought that I was my own thoughts, that my own thoughts were part of this receptor, even if the thoughts are in continual flux. Then, after reading Tolle, I made the mistake of trying to imagine and actually visualise that this receptor was distinguished not only from these symptoms but also psychological processes (thoughts, emotions) and that I was this receptor. All of this is true but what I have realised is that it is a mistake to try and detach yourself from these experiences - the experiences of life. The receptor is not just a detached observer: when there is a subjective experiences to be had (as opposed to there being no experience, like when you are in deep sleep, or when you are dead) the receptor is fully immersed in it. So really and truly, the most important vehicle to realising that 'I am' is to acknowledge the changeability of these experiences, then you realise that the continuity comes from constantly being aware of these phenomena.

Rothko paintings are brilliant examples of this phenomenon, since when you look at them you can constantly see change, and that is why they are so good for meditation.

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Re: Does Enlightenment make you Invincible

Post by Enlightened2B » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:05 pm

Sloth, I understand where you are coming from. Here's my take for whatever it's worth and btw....loved your post in the "gravity" thread:

Most people prior to reading ET DO associate themselves with the body. I was one of them. So, you might be an exception to that. When we have this "shift" in perspective where we see ourselves as "witnesses" witnessing thoughts, emotions, feelings, it's a blissful experience because I like to call it "liberating" in that it is liberating to know that those thoughts, feelings, experiences are not actually what I am. I am something else. However, then mind comes into play. It wants to know more and more and more about this "shift" in perspective.So, it starts conceptualizing everything and NEEDS answers.

Personally, I've done an incredible amount of research over the past two months relating to non-duality, Quantum Physics and self-inquiry where I've come to the conclusion that consciousness is outside of the brain. However, this is not KNOWN. What IS known is that everything just is. I exist. That's TRUTH. That's the ONLY truth. Existence. Amness. Being. Outside of that?.....The giant mystery. It's merely perspectives, speculation, theories from this point on.

I believe that once we negate everything we can NOT be during self-enquiry. It comes down to again, this one....AMNESS. But, where does this AMNESS stem from? Is it a feeling in the brain? While our thoughts/mind/feelings/emotions are clearly objects of knowledge, is the brain itself an actual object of knowledge? This is why I feel self-enquiry falls short to some extent, because there's no way the brain can possibly be an object of knowledge since we can never see it. We just assume that we have brains.

So, at that point, it becomes really a matter of speculation. We know we exist, but we don't know where this feeling of "I" stems from. I think this is where outside sources come into play in developing a THEORY on what is most likely rather than what IS from this point on. It's not a belief. A belief is an attachment to an idea. A theory is based on numerous sources including experience directly to speculate about what is most LIKELY, granted it is open to interpretation. If you want my opinion, I can't possibly fathom the idea that something as immaterial as awareness/consciousness can possibly stem from matter (brain). Physicist Peter Russell addresses this as his "hard problem". But, it's a very nebulous area that is very open to speculation. I think Awareness is our true nature and the brains play a HUGE role in filtering everything into this "reality" we see. Can a slab of meat made of matter actually produce something as formless/unchanging as "awareness"? If so, I'd love to hear how.

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