On a World Where Everything Is Free

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On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by kutto » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:06 pm

Think about a world where there was no money.

Who would own everything? - Everyone and No-one.

When you wanted something you would go to the person that had the thing you would like to have and they would give you some of what they had so you had some too.

You could never run out of anything because when you wanted it you would just go and ask someone for it. No-one would hoard anything because when they wanted something they would just either have it already or ask someone for it. Or they would just put it out and someone would take it. Only if they needed it.

Noone would steal because they only need ask and you can't sell anything in a world with no money anyway.

When someone needed some supplies to make something for you they would ask others to give it and they would give it freely.

You only give what you no longer need yourself or even better you get to make something for that person.

The only 'work' would be making what other people needed.

No-one is ever short of anything they need because if they need it they ask and they are given anything they need.

There are no banks because there is no money.

There are no taxes because there is no money and if something is needed for all - all contribute. There is no tax office because there is no money.

But the ex bank workers and ex tax collectors are not worried since they have all the things they need just like everybody else does. They find something else to do.

There is no profit because there is no money. It is not necessary to save because when you want something you just ask and it is provided for you. There is nothing to save anyway as there is no money.

It is the highest privilege to give something they need and all take great pleasure in bringing what others need to them.

There is no unemployment because there is no employment. Everyone is unemployed.

There is no payroll because there is no money.

The system works perfectly until someone refuses to pass on anything they have that they do not still need. No-one stops bringing that person the things they need because they have forgotten how the agreed system works.

Sometimes people forget how the system works and everyone else knows when this happens the person just needs to be reminded how the system works and why there is no need at all for them to hoard anything as when they need something it will be given. At this time everyone is extra attentive to this persons needs realising something must have happened that has caused them to forget.

The idea of threatening this person in any way would be unheard of and everyone would know as soon as fear rippled through the system it could stop working. Fortunately most of the time people just don’t think about it - When someone forgets they are just gently reminded.

Demand and supply work in exactly the same way as in the economy that used to have money in it except there is no profit - There is no need for a surplus because everyone already has what they need for the purpose and duration that they need it.

Everyone looks after everything because someone else will need it soon. Everything is made to last.

There is no superannuation because there is no money and no scarcity of material goods and services. No one retires because no-one is employed anyway.

No-one worries about the future anyway because they only time they live in Is Now.

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by far_eastofwest » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:46 pm

well i would love that world.....
i think there are some groups like this, but if we (western society) continue with the never ending need (insert greed) for wood chip and cheap outdoor settings etc and throw out a couch whenever the fabric gets shabby (rather than recovering) they won't have anywhere to live soon... they live in forests, and illegal logging (for money naturally) will be their doom. [urlhttp://blogs.plos.org/neuroanthropology/2011/02/09/‘the-last-free-people-on-the-planet’/][/url]
People need money, so they can have more, better, improved on what is already..... enough.... so its not going to happen. Naturally the fact people are starving to death on one side of the planet while the other side 'obesity is epidemic' doesn't in any way seem screwed up to most....
You may like to read Walden if you like this idea(l).
There is nothing harder to find than a black cat in a dark room
Especially when there is no cat....

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by coriolis » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:28 pm

Possible in a world with not peopled with myriads of mind made "selves" running the show and jockeying for position in an imaginary pecking order.

But that is just about the only show in town these days that gets any attention.

It will eventually collapse from it's own weight.

So the pertinent question is --- What will it take down with it and how long will it take nature to heal the wound?
Look deeply inside yourself and try to find yourself.
The ensuing failure is the true finding
---- Wu Hsin

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by KathleenBrugger » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:50 pm

I've been dreaming about a world like that since I was a teen-ager. :D For a long time I thought it could be brought about through political change, but as I became aware I realized that the only way to bring about a utopia was through a global awakening of consciousness. The people on "top" with all the money and power are not going to loosen their grip easily.

There is something happening though, that might bring about your vision in the next 30 or 40 years: robots. There are people predicting that in 25 years or so a huge percentage of jobs will be obsolete. And we're not just talking cashiers (self-service checkout lanes are eliminating cashiers just like self-service gas stations eliminated gas station attendants)--lawyers and doctors are on the short list of imperiled jobs. Supposedly one of the safest jobs of the future is janitorial work; they're finding that the hardest to automate!

What will happen is the unemployment rate will keep going up; eventually a fundamental change in the social order will have to happen. If robots eat all the jobs, then we'll have to rethink money and work. It's possible that in the near future everyone will have a comfortable income and can work at things that they have a passion for. Maybe this will be the transition to the future you're envisioning, kutto.

I wrote a blog post about it where you can find links to articles that give more detail, particularly a Mother Jones article that explains how this robot advance may be almost on us.

http://kathleenbrugger.blogspot.com/201 ... uture.html
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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by azooo » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:59 pm

The motivation behind money was (as I see it) practical. To be able to exchange goods and also to be able to "trade" goods when no common denominator was available.

The fact that this was hijacked by the mind and we got lost into it is another story... Money or no money, mind would find a way to lose ourselves in some aspect of the external manifestaion.

As another example you can take sport. The root of sport is in the joy of play human beings have. The origin of sport was motivated by the joy of playing and socializing. Today its a big business, everyone is nervous, coaches are all stressed up and angry, dressed in suites and shouting at their teams. Fans fight over their favourite teams and are disappointed when their team is losing..

So to think there is any problem in money or that its absence would solve anything is naive.

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by kutto » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:45 pm

Since everyone in this world has all the basic things they need always at hand they are free to make only the things they like to make at any given time. If they want to stop doing what they are doing and they do something else.

Or they just stop for a while and do nothing at all and Just Be.

They make whatever is in their hearts to make. They make it with love, joy and passion. They enjoy it when people ask for some of the things they specialise in making. Most people create with art and new ways of enjoying being.

Not content with making only what is asked of them they seek out others who would benefit from what they make and give it to them to help them in what they do. People always enjoy this especially because they discover new things, things they were not already aware of and things they would have never sought out as they were not aware they existed at all. Then they use these things to build new and more beautiful things of their own.

The ones who gave them these things watch in joy as their work is extended and shared.

Those who grow food and deliver essentials hold the most cherished functions of all. The work is cherished by themselves and by those who come to them for things. They are the most loved of all because everyone realises their choice to move freely to doing new things is based on the basics of life always being present. They are the most important functions of all.

When those people want to do new things there is a basic understanding that as what they do is essential someone must agree to take their place.

But those who provide the essentials never do want to change because they love what they give.

Because they give Freedom.

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by aware4ever » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:27 pm

Money is absolutely secondary. In a system without money, people would still operate as they do now, with greed, manipulation, deceit, etc.

The dysfunction of the global monetary system is merely another aspect of the dysfunction of the human culture, morals, values, etc. That is at the heart of the many global dysfunctions of the world, and if that changes somehow, than even a monetary system, similar to what we have now would work beautifully.

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by kutto » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:36 am

How would it read if the title was 'On a World Where Everyone is free'?

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by DrP » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:42 am

There are people thinking and even working on future like that.

This is one interesting project I know of:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/about/re ... ed-economy

And this is the main guy behind it:

However, in this historical period it is an utopia. Yet, if we as a species survive what’s coming in this century due to the technological advancements and their potential for misuse, then money at least in the current meaning of the word will likely disappear.

There are people which focus on future changes, perhaps the most prominent is Ray Kurzweil

In general, the overall agreement seems to be that we do not have the capacity to predict what will happen beyond certain advancements/changes (i.e. singularities). For example nobody from before could imagine what will happen with the world after industrial revolution (then people didn’t even know that something like that is starting). At the same time now we roughly know which main advancements are likely coming (because there is a lot of effort in that directions, as well as because it is popular subject) and thus we can know for sure that the world will change perhaps relatively soon in unpredictable and unimaginable ways. That impacts jobs, money and everything else. By those things I mean stuff such as real artificial intelligence (that will be perhaps the biggest one), real longevity, real robotics, space travel, nanotechnology, artificial life forms, brain to machine communication and others into which is currently invested huge capital and effort.

It is clear that it will be not easy transformation. There simply is no way to stop anyone from doing whatever they want. For example, some time ago it was popular news that it is in fact easy to print on home 3D printers simple but functional guns. This technology is still in its infancy. Yet to stop something like that is even now virtually impossible. Since research information is almost all readily available (and the one which is not is always possible to obtain somehow anyway) than the most important advancements will need to be made on different then technological level. But which level? Can anyone seriously imagine transformation of humanity on some consciousness level as ET is talking about? And even if majority will, not everyone will go in that direction. And as more technology is available, as less people is needed to hurt many (or perhaps all) others.


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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by kutto » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:39 am

Look at how this world feels not what is being done

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:58 pm

In benign terms money is just a currency - (definition - the fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use)

The distortion is of power - the power of money, the beliefs around money, the tricks and cons to support the beliefs around money that support the distortion of power with money as the 'currency' to do so, that without 'money' one is power-less, therefore one must fall into line.
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.

Jimi Hendrix
Indigenous cultures saw this abuse of power and the 'currency' of love and peace and community with all the world disintegrate.

Trading without the over-application of power is called a gift economy and it is this that we do all the time in relating without 'money' (hopefully) - that is if love is known as the equilibrium of gratitude & generosity, and awareness of the abundance of all life is not taken hostage by fears, one can freely 'share' and freely receive without a notion of 'debt', or be traded, and indeed without the notion that material 'wealth' must continually grow.

It doesn't really 'grow' any way, it's an illusion.

In cultures / or in relationships where the currency is love there is no debt, no debtor, no strangers, no foes, no ownership. Reciprocity was/is a given according to awareness, capacity and willingness.

The gift economy is pre bartering, where a notion of 'debt' was held, recorded, and repaid, which became more and more complex to keep track of. One can only say that this arose with the distortion of power, and forgetting what love and life really is; it naturally is giving and receiving in equal measure - that is 'freely' loving within and with regard & respect for all of creation's abundance - limited only in awareness, capacity & willingness.

The interesting thing is that it may not have been the one who 'gave' that creates/created the notion of debt - it may be / have been the receiver feeling unworthy and feeling that they needed to do something 'more' outside of the natural balance of gratitude/generosity of love.

From wiki:

In a gift economy, valuable goods and services are regularly given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future rewards (i.e. there is no formal quid pro quo).

Ideally, simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and redistribute valuables within the community.
There are various social theories concerning gift economies. Some consider the gifts to be a form of reciprocal altruism. Another interpretation is that implicit "I owe you" debt[8] and social status are awarded in return for the "gifts".[9] Consider for example, the sharing of food in some hunter-gatherer societies, where food-sharing is a safeguard against the failure of any individual's daily foraging. This custom may reflect altruism, it may be a form of informal insurance, or may bring with it social status or other benefits.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by SandyJoy » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:36 am

The Free-Market System is a wonderful system. It works very well. It is based on the Divine Equation of Giving and Receiving.

Many of the he Founding Fathers of the U.S. were enlightened men, they knew Free Market economics was the right answer.

But, the problem is the lack of understanding Reality and Identity in todays society. We've lost much of the insight that that this country first based the U.S based Its Constitution on. It is from out of the "unenlightened" humanity that the corruption begins.

The Free-Market System works when people are living from the ground of Reality and Self-Knowing.

In fact no economic system works when people do not know who they are. None, not any.

But, if we cannot enlighten everyman, then we'd do best to use the Free Market system. So, let's start here in the U.S. by getting rid of the Federal Reserve. That's an excellent first step back to genuine freedom. Creating the Federal Reserve to be involved was the first major mistake. The Federal Reserve was a set-up for government to gain power and control. The Free Market cannot work if we have government involved with money making and subjecting people to that power and control. Now we have a system of greed and corruption created by Un-Self-Realized humans who destroyed a brilliant, and divinely inspired concept called the Free-Market. Free Market works very well when it is pure and uncontaminated by government interference which must thrive on taxes, monopolies, huge corporations and powerful bankers. Think about how Monsanto now controls all the food and is deliberately destroying regenerating seeds with GMO. Monsanto is not founded on Free Market economics, it is so huge that it owns most of the politicians. Same situation with the "big pharma" drug pushers, and the major banks. All of them in cahoots together, while destroying the 'little guy". All paying off the government so they can stay in power. This was not caused by the Free Market system. It was initially brought on by government controlling in the economy.

So, don't put down the Free Market, because as it is now, the U.S. is not based on Free Market economics.

To let the Free Market work, we would see a glorious recovery of abundance for all and the Joy of Giving and Receiving would flow freely and pour into all peoples lives, everyone would benefit by way of inspired individuality and natural expansion of in the giving and receiving of Goods and Services and which is the Divine Equation Lived.

Here in the U.S. we used to let the natural ups and downs of economy sort themselves out, and they always did. Dips in the economy did not last more than a few years when left to its natural course. But, during the depression in the 30's the government took over the economy and created taxes, the IRS, Welfare and the Federal Reserve ---all this was put into place back then and has grown into a huge monster that eats everything and creates people of servitude to that big monster. This giant pyramid scheme will collapse, sooner or later.

When it does, we will either turn to a type of Socialist Communism or a dictatorship either one will come out of fear--- or we will have found our Inner Light and we will have the courage and intelligence to turn back to the Free Market, not out of fear, but out of the freedom to Love and the Joy of the Living Truth.

When we become fully self-Realized we lose all fear. Without fear, the government has no power and loses it control over the people. This, I think, is why the Powers-That-Be do not want us to find The Truth keeping mankind from Living their own Individual powerful Light in the world.

As Jesus said (and I paraphrase) the rulers neither live this Light and while they keep the Light from being found by the people, but those who know who you are, you must be smart while being True to your own divine peaceful Heart.

9) Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the Scribes have taken the keys to knowledge and hidden them. They have neither entered nor let those who want to enter get in. You then, be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."

Enlightened people have an innate trust in Divine Law and have no fear. Those who do not "Know Who They Are" will give up their freedom easily for the idea of security, which is really not secure at all.

The economy we have now is based in Keynesian theory. Which is basically that government controls everything, which is a very corrupt system of hierarchy of power which has deliberately prevented the Free Market from working as it originally could and should.

We know, philosophically speaking and from our own experience personally, that anything that we try to control will, by all means, get worse, run amok or not work out as we'd wanted. We usually lose exactly what we were cling to, or try to hold on to. When governments try to control the economy, it cannot be done. It will end badly. When we economic life flow freely, unabated, growing exponentially, it works great for everyone.

The real answer is about a change of heart in all of humanity. Freedom from fear and trusting the True Light within, trusting this the Presence that guides/permeates all Life, staying to true to this insight and wisdom about who we really are which allows for Freedom of the Spirit, and generosity of the Unbound open Heart, power of Life and Truth of every Individual ---The Truth about Identity is always the place to go for the right answer.

When human government enters the scene and the "little guy " gives up his rights for (false) security and forgets about the Truth or leaves behind the Government of Godhead/All, we lose, we always lose, we all lose.

”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” Ben Franklin. This is the leading problem we face now, people are will give up their freedom out of fear. They are giving up their rights to that corrupt, unenlightened, humans who run the governing systems, in the false faith that they can save them. Really 'they' the Powers-That-Be have no genuine care to save anyone outside their own clique.

Nothing works out there in the world of appearances and images until we find Reality Itself and Know "We Are That"-- This is Key, to know thyself. Then we discover we can be self-reliant, self-motivated, inventive, creative, caring, happy, strong, conscientious, honest, generous, open and intelligent and all the Good and Blessed things that make for Joy and Happiness and Abundance on earth.

Find the the Inner Guidance, the Pure, Pristine, Unbound Identity. It proves Itself to work in my life, and you can see for yourself it works in yours, so we know for living fact that Self-Discovery is the answer -- one day we will see it happen, we will look out and see the fields are white and ready for harvest--- we will see all mankind finding and knowing the Joy and Freedom of the Child, his own True Selfhood made in God's Image.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by Marcell » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:07 pm

Nothing that really matters (ok maybe not food or a home) costs any money.

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by smiileyjen101 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:38 am

I had to go check what Free Market Economy entails :wink: I looked at this for understanding http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/ ... arket.html

So what it's saying is still that people 'think' they 'own' things, people still put a static or moving 'value' on things, like the bartering system with an intermediary 'token' representing values, and in turn the number of those tokens you 'earn' 'save' and 'spend' determine the goods and services one can 'afford'., and this 'value' is the controls within which one lives their life.

I seem to have smelly memories of sewer filled streets that no one wanted to 'pay' 'someone' to clean. At some point 'collective' services then need an allocation of everyone's 'tokens' in order to spread the 'cost' of public services around.

So when the cook's efforts are not as 'valued' as the butcher's efforts ...??? then what? The butcher 'earns' more and has more 'economic power' in the currency that they do not need to contribute to public and private spending. So then there is a building pile of tokens... hmmm someone might 'steal' them, fear ensues etc etc right back where we are now, greed follows etc etc.

When the cook's efforts do not 'earn' as many tokens as they 'need' to buy shelter as it is valued, because I'm assuming 'shelter' would have a 'token' value on it....??? then what? They fall to fear in the opposite direction - unworthy etc etc

How is that 'equality'?

The Divine Equation of Giving & Receiving - now that sounds like a good jingle - but for as long as there is a 'token' that separates giving and receiving with some indicator of 'value';
as long as there is a sense of ownership rather than stewardship, participation, cultivator or creator there will be a 'need' for 'security' to protect those false images of 'owning', there will be striving to own (means to an end), rather than basking in the participation in life freely; and as long as there is 'value' externally imposed on a person, thing or situation there will be fear of lack and greed in plenty.

The Divine Equation of Giving and Receiving for me would not be that things have 'value' and can be traded based on supply & demand with profit and loss and ownership

- it would be acknowledging that giving and receiving occurs naturally in balance - consumption and participation are the key indicators. Balance across universal creation - environment, all species & humans are honoured giving and receiving flows without measure. There is no profit/loss to humans at the expense of each other or nature and other species.There is no 'deficit' to bemoan and there is no 'surplus' to chase after.

Growth and contraction are not just natural they are known and accepted and respected in their cycles, not feared and manipulated and distorted.

I don't know a lot about American history, but the 'founding fathers' (seriously, the landmass was never lost and already was bountifully blessed and harmoniously populated) - by imposing the sense of 'economics' as being anything, they distorted the natural abundance and cycles of giving and receiving that already were there and working fine, across all of nature.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: On a World Where Everything Is Free

Post by kutto » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:50 am

The issue in this is the direction of flow and what is flowing.

Ego pulls things in to itself and it uses money to do this. Money is symbolic of the 'effort' that Ego has expended and then 'deserves' to get back.

What I originally wrote was about giving to allow the creation of more giving. And giving with creativity not with corporatised products made with cookie cutter repetition to pull back money.

Possession of anything limits everyones ability to give because what is possessed can no longer flow in the giving loop. Ego takes and holds. Love gives and receives Joy in giving. Ego goes whoa but if I don't own it and someone asks I won't have anything. Yes but there is a giving loop where everyone is giving to all and it sweeps around the loop. I wrote another little bit on this about the number of cups in my house that I have posted at the end of this which illustrates a bit of this.

Remember the last point - Everyone needs essentials. In a giving economy (and I am sure if people lived like that they would not talk about economics) the most important roles are the ones who provide the essential services and goods. Which when it comes down to it is not much at all. It would be understood in a world like this that they were the most thanked and 'looked after and gifted to' (except not in the Ego sense of 'keep them there I need them') - Because when everyone has the essentials what else they do is pure discretion and could change on a daily and hourly basis. How many of us are that free now?

Let me tell you I work in an office where the start and finish times are strictly adhered to. Someone wanted to leave early the other day by about half an hour. But had to wait. I can assure you the owner and boss would be personally happy to let him go early but because this is an 'enforced rule' he did not. Because the boss and a couple of others occasionally 'use' that rule for other purposes...

No-one else in the office would have directly minded the person leaving early that day and of course he wanted to leave early. So who and what is this rule? And who does it serve if at one level everyone was happy for this person to leave but they did not? Answer - it is needed by the Ego of several in the office for 'games' - Whilever we live in an Ego dominant world nothing will be free because what the Ego needs is control - even if the person with the Ego at the deepest level does not want it's games - it knows if it has 'used' that rule for its own ends it does not want to been seen 'having one rule for one and one for another'

I give that example because it is a good example of how we follow so many rules that are symbolised by power and money. But while ever the Ego keeps sucking power and wealth to itself and needs a giving world is unlikely to take off.

Except of course what would make it take off is starting a giving world....

Even if this means taking one day a week and working in your community or just walking down the street with a hammer and nails and offering to fix any neighbours fence for free. Could you imagine in most places if you even suggested to someone you would fix it for free - They would look at you and say - but what do you want? Hark the Egos call.

Of course if you did next time you saw them they might just ask you in for a cup of tea...

How Many Cups Do You Have?

When I empty the dishwasher I always have a problem. I can never get the door to the cupboard above the kettle closed. Its the cupboard that has the coffee, tea, mugs, glasses and sugar. I come up with new ways of stacking the beakers, mugs and glasses, putting the sugar container on it’s side. I put the mugs with the tapered round bases in the mugs with the square bases. They have to be on the bottom as they won’t stack if they are on top. And still the cupboard does not quite shut. It annoys me every time I do it.

Then one day I stand back and look at the cupboard. I count the cups, mugs, glasses and beakers. There are fifty five in the cupboard. Fifty five for a family of two adults and two children. The ones on the bottom shelf are used. The ones on the top shelf are not. They consist of wine glasses (in a house where we no longer drink wine), ‘special’ glasses, crystal glass wedding presents and other top shelf paraphernalia that sits there, never touched and never used. Thats just in that cupboard, there are a few more ‘even more special’ glasses lurking in the cupboard behind the empty lunchboxes.

The cups we use the most are the least expensive ones, the plastic beakers we got from Ikea. I like them because they are made of thin plastic and when you pour milk or juice into them only a tiny amount of heat is transferred from the thin plastic into the cold drink I just put into them. I get the coldest drink in these and thats why I like them. They are the least expensive ones we have, the ones we use the most and they stack fantastically. There is a stack of ten where the best the mugs can do is two or four for normal glasses that warm up my orange juice when I pour it in them. And still I cannot shut the cupboard door.

In my street there are about 150 houses. I am going to guess and say that on average there are three people in every house. In our house there are 15 cups for each of us. Even if we are a bit ‘cup heavy’ assuming a ratio of 10 per person in the rest of the street that would still be 150 x 3 x 10 = 4500 cups in our street. 4500 cups for 450 people.

And several times a year our house still runs out of usable cups. We have children, they have birthday parties. People come. They have drinks. We run out of glasses and then mugs. So we buy more, for next time. In our street where there are (at least) 4500 cups. We run out. So do our neighbours when they have parties for their kids. So they buy more too.

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