Is everything predetermined?

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Webwanderer
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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:19 pm

Maringa wrote:Life IS predetermined as long as we are completely unconscious, because we live so narrow lives in that state that there's not much room for anything new to come in. In the unconscious state, we ARE our roles, and these are pretty much determined by society, culture and belief systems. However, in the awakened state, we have the power to break free because we can CHOOSE our reaction to any event. We don't live in reaction, and we don't see ourselves as victims anymore. When we wake up, we can create our own destiny in any given moment in time.

What do you think about that?
I think that is exceedingly clear.

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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by arel » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:21 pm

Maringa wrote:Life IS predetermined as long as we are completely unconscious, because we live so narrow lives in that state that there's not much room for anything new to come in. In the unconscious state, we ARE our roles, and these are pretty much determined by society, culture and belief systems. However, in the awakened state, we have the power to break free because we can CHOOSE our reaction to any event. We don't live in reaction, and we don't see ourselves as victims anymore. When we wake up, we can create our own destiny in any given moment in time.

What do you think about that?
I agree with that as well. I'd say the answer to "is everything predetermined, or do we chose" depends on the perspective. If I see myself as an individual human being, I know that there is all kinds of genetic and learned conditioning, and I'd say there is no choice, everything is predetermined.

But if through interest in this topic, through simple inquiry and exploration, we start seeing ourselves as the attention that moves from one thing to another, and clearly become self-aware as that vs as just a body, then we tend to conclude that there is a choice.

I also think through further exploration from that point of realization the question of that sort does not arise but if it does, it's still enjoyable to explore.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by rachMiel » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:04 pm

Maringa wrote:Life IS predetermined as long as we are completely unconscious, because we live so narrow lives in that state that there's not much room for anything new to come in. In the unconscious state, we ARE our roles, and these are pretty much determined by society, culture and belief systems.
I agree. Though I'd say that no one is "completely unconscious" ... except perhaps for people in deep sleep and zombies. Life is shades of gray, not black and white, right?
However, in the awakened state, we have the power to break free because we can CHOOSE our reaction to any event. We don't live in reaction, and we don't see ourselves as victims anymore. When we wake up, we can create our own destiny in any given moment in time.
This seems overstated to me. If 80+% of mind is unconscious, i.e. not consciously accessible or controllable, how could we (consciously) choose our reactions to all events? Who or what is it that creates our destiny when that creation is largely performed by the unconscious mind?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by KathleenBrugger » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:53 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Maringa wrote:
However, in the awakened state, we have the power to break free because we can CHOOSE our reaction to any event. We don't live in reaction, and we don't see ourselves as victims anymore. When we wake up, we can create our own destiny in any given moment in time.
This seems overstated to me. If 80+% of mind is unconscious, i.e. not consciously accessible or controllable, how could we (consciously) choose our reactions to all events? Who or what is it that creates our destiny when that creation is largely performed by the unconscious mind?
I agree with RachMiel here. I think we're like icebergs, the vast majority of our actions and thoughts occur under the surface of consciousness. As we awaken the proportion shifts slightly, but the bulk is still subconscious.

I think free will is a myth. I think humans have confused "will"--the ability to act in the world--with "free will"--the freedom to act in any way you choose. For me, freedom is a large word. It means unconstrained by limitations, and I don't think it's possible for anyone in a physical form, no matter how awakened, to be free of all limitations.

We're so enamored of the positive sides of free will we ignore the negatives: guilt and shame and pride. When we think we chose freely and we screwed up we're ashamed and guilty. It's our fault. Or if we succeeded we have reason to feel pride, which easily slips into arrogance. Without free will, when I see that everything I do is constrained, I feel humility and gratitude. Humility for being a human being who screws up, and gratitude for the good things that happen.

One of our limitations (at least for everyone I know) is not being able to see the future. So what does it matter if it's predetermined or not? You still have to act as if it isn't determined, because you don't know what will happen. You still have to get up every morning and choose what to have for breakfast. Your actions bring that choice into reality, even if your choices were completely constrained by subconscious forces over which you have no control (e.g. you'd never pick oatmeal because your mother made you eat that every day when you were a child and you can't stand it).
We are ALL Innocent by Reason of Insanity
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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:05 am

Simplest, easiest way to say this is that God is Love and God is All in all-- Love is undetermined, it is an open field of infinite possibilities. A wild open field of Love that, that is what God is and God lets us make our own choices, our own decisions.

God is Love, and Love let's us learn from our mistakes, Love wants us to find our own way home, and find our way back to our Pure Heart-Self, and to live by the divine Law-- not because we must, not because we have no choice-- but because we want to for good reason, because we learned for our self that it is the best and most joyful and enriching way.

Love does not dictate, coerce, command, demand, rule or require. We are free agents, and God is divine intelligence God knows we learn by our mistakes.

It's a bit like a mother watching her child learning to ride her two-wheeler; mother shows her, she give her instructions, gives her a little help, holds the bike a bit lightly, let's her get the feel of it --- and then let's her little girl go all by her self. Chances are the little girl will fall over, crash a few times, maybe some tears, but mother does not interfere because Love does not want to deprive that little girl of the joy and elation, the sense empowerment and self-reliance that comes when she discovers she can do it all by herself, all by herself, she did it and it's all hers and she cannot forget what she has learned, one day she rides past mom saying "look Mom, no hands!" :D

God is like that, God is Love. God loves to see us ride all by our self, free and right and balanced and steady and well.

Oh, we know the rules, they are written in our heart, the instructions are in our conscience, we are given plenty of inner guidance to go out into the world with, we know right from wrong, we know how to live rightly, it's in us, we have the instructions--- but we have to find out for our self, that is the beautiful nature of God's children---we don't want to just obey the rules, we want to know for our self what is true and right. We don't want to abide the rules, we want to break the rules and go our own way, wander into places that lure us, follow our curiosity, explore the infinite possibilities--- and God's Love gives us that freewill to do that, to go all the way to hell if we like, no pre-determined going, just our choice.

Nothing predetermined about it, but the divine Law works when you live by it and does not when you don't. When you don't you learn quickly you are better off when you do.

God does not know how far afield anyone will go, nothing is predetermined, every thing possible and impossible exists, everything right and all that is wrong, it's all here. Life is a field of Infinite Possibilities and the choices are ours alone.

When we return to Love it is easy and joyful to live by the Divine Law, when we come back to the Living One and the Divine Law and let Love be the Way, then Life is like riding a bike, we are then capable of knowing how to ride, knowing what happens when we ride through sand or go through a puddle of water, we are free and Life is easy because we learned how to 'ride'--but the choice all along was with us, each of, alone. Love turns out to be the right way to go, and living by Divine Law we make the right choices and do the right thing, not out of obeying, but out of the freedom to choose rightly because it works so much better. The hard teachings hard won, the lessons joyfully learned, we listen to our Heart whisper gently "This the Way, walk Ye in It"

"And I shall write my law in their inward parts and write it in their heart; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. They shall teach no more everyman his neighbor and every man his brother, saying “Know the Lord” for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord, and I will remember their sin no more."
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by Rose and Richard » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:06 pm

Hi maringa
What a great question.

You started here with LoA which I believe confused you.

Karma is the unconsciousness attracting and free will is expressed there. Thoughts prevail and are the attractor for what you are receiving.

The Law of attraction is in the conscious or awareness state where you are at one and in energy balance .i.e in the present moment.
It is the present moment that the LOA works you can see feel and receive you needs for your pre/determined role (we are all here for a reason). LOA transcends our thoughts.
The problem for many of us is trying to be in that balanced present moment without our chatterbox doing the attracting.
Love the discussion.
If You Do What You Always Did You Will Get What You Always Got.
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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:05 pm

Yes R&R, You have a good point. We do tend to attract what we 'think' but I feel it is more like we attract what our attitude is more than the 'thinking' although our thoughts do arise from our attitude.

So yes, if you have a very negative attitude and are always down and depressed that is a "mode" of being and that mode attracts the same vibe or reflects that vibe and you see what you "be". And if you try to think good thoughts, and are still a miserable, sad attitude, bitter, stubborn, then you can't really get your thoughts to attract something good.

A positive attitude that comes from being connected or in line with the Light of Truth, the Joy of Being, the Abundance of Life's Possibilities, then allows you to be free and open and that Love is reflected or 'attracts' beauty and peace and joy and the images 'out there' are mirrors of the Soul, here as I.

Well, yes, I am agreeing we do attract to us what we "are" -- and what we are always reflects what we think. We get to choose what we Think We Are ---we get choose The Truth (who we really are) or the we can live by the "lie" (who we are not)-- That is the basic choice and but you have chances to choose "aright" every day. To Lift your Heart and Mind Up and see from the Higher View, or to sink down and play the part of miserable sinful, unworthy, pitiful wretch who needs to fix his past and fix his mind, and fix his life, (just a role, and not true) In the Light of Truth Mind is Unpossessed.

And yes, there is a divine destiny, but we can make the choice to Trust in Love to Lead us there, or go the hard way, through the dark night to get there. Either way will get us the Rightful Place, that is destiny, yes. Because we are, in Truth, already bloomed, already Home--retroactive backwards in time unfolding destiny. 8)

Yes, there is a destiny and we do unfold like a flower blooms, we do have a divine destiny in our DNA, but how we get there is free choice, how we find the Truth and Light and Way, is our choice, and it may SEEM to take eons and life times to come to Full Bloom, but I do think we are eventually all to become the Tree and Bloom the Fruit. Maybe not all here at this time, but one by one, alone we do finally Bloom.

I should learn not to make very "absolute" statements, because it is ALWAYS Both, always-- i know that, I sometimes stand to far above the passing scene and forget to come down to earth and See it includes time and destiny and unfolding and seeking and finding and growing ---

But, it is so important to know you have a choice about your own thoughts and how you see and how you behave and how you live. It is up to you what you want to 'attract' through how you Live. Live from the Truth and things are easy and fall into place and you see the Synchronicity in so many things that happen, you see there is a destiny, and reasons for this and that---all leading to your unfolding Truthful Self, to expose your True Beautiful Being.

The whole of destiny is to Return to Our True Self to become Who we Really Are---and yes, there is a destiny to that, a pre-determined End in sight. But how you get there is your choice. Again, Like Life, it is like riding a bike, you can struggle forever and keep falling off and then one day just give up, and say you hate bikes --that is the choice you make and you can stop living or live hating Life--- or you can dare yourself the bumps and falls and enjoy learning no matter how hard it might seem---you will learn how to ride --You will find your destiny if Lift Your Spirits Up to Seeing there is No Thing to fear and God/Life/Reality is Good and Gives us all we need in order to Bloom to the fullness of Who We Are.

End point, yes its BOTH, Balanced, Between, All That Is, so both destiny and free will and even More than that. Unlimited Light of Truth, Both, always both, and GREATER than Both--- More than we know---Sometimes I go way far up and forget to come back down again -- but It never leaves my Heart and Soul wherever I am :D

Even Moses had to bring those tablets back down, so did Plotinus, Make it work here in the world, make the Light plain and clear Here in the world of appearances, make the Beauty and Love evident and seen, bring it Home again so it is visible and can't be missed.
Last edited by SandyJoy on Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:07 pm

I am destined to learn that trying to express this Blessed Simplicity with a simple point simply cannot be done :D
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by theslymoose » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:41 am

You seem like you are getting caught up in future. Does changing your destiny matter when you are in the moment? I often reflect on free will and destiny coexisting at the same time. It makes no sense to the mind but is kinda true. When you are present you do whatever needs to be done. Maybe the destiny is in what happens and the freedom is in how.

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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:53 pm

My sense is that we were and are destined to be explorers of experience....

WW

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Re: Is everything predetermined?

Post by TemporalDissonance » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:58 pm

Webwanderer wrote:My sense is that we were and are destined to be explorers of experience....
Ditto on that.

But then, we may not be all "destined" to be or do the same "thing", and/or there ever was free will and/or destiny. :lol:

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