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Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:18 pm
by Maringa
Hi there,

I've been a huge Tolle fan for years now but recently I started to read about LoA and came across a couple of books by Ester & Jerry Hicks (Abraham Hicks) which led me further astray too deep spiritual/philosophical ideas. I ended up reading a lot about "the after life" and what's going on in "the ether", I found, a well-renowned medium and it just took off from there. The thing is that some people have the most detailed descriptions about how we, between lives, make up plans for our next life. That we have "spirit guides" and that there's a plan and a purpose and that it's even determined when we are going to die.

This seems completely horrible to me, because I like to think that I have all the power to create my own destiny, and that by choosing a new reaction to an old situation - I can create something new, something better.

What does Tolle say about this. I've searched but haven't found anything. Does he also say that everything is predetermined? I hardly think so, right? What do you guys think...?

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:15 pm
by Testigo
“Behind the sometimes seemingly random or even chaotic succession of events in our lives as well as in the world lies concealed the unfolding of a higher order and purpose. This is beautifully expressed in the Zen saying ‘The snow falls, each flake in its appropriate place.’” A New Earth, p. 194.

“Often it is impossible for the mind to understand what place or purpose a seemingly random event has in the tapestry of the whole. But there are not random events, nor are there events or things that exist by and for themselves, in isolation. The atoms that make up your body were once forged inside stars, and the causes of even the smallest event are virtually infinite and connected with the whole in incomprehensible ways. If you wanted to trace back the cause of any event, you would have to go back all the way to the beginning of creation. The cosmos is not chaotic.” N.E. p. 197.

“Nothing happens that is not meant to happen, which is to say, nothing happens that is not part of the greater whole and its purpose”. N.E. p. 286.

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:51 pm
by Maringa
Thanks Testigo,

I get the quotes but does it mean that I have no power to change my destiny...?

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:36 pm
by tod
I do not recall anything ET has directly said about this, but thought can create all sorts of places that can be dwelt on or in. And with 'support' (from like minded people perhaps), a dwelling place just gets more entrenched or material. A good example of this is the world we all think we are living in. :)

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:55 pm
by kutto
Just think of it as a sea of potential moving in a general direction. Nothing is fixed until it occurs but there are certain waypoints you may pass by along the way which is part of the overall journey.

The overall direction of the sea of potential is influenced by the collective will far more than the individual will. But the collective will is the multiplicative effect of individual will. As the individual will change so does the direction of the sea.

As we are the sea, God is the ocean that the sea moves within.

Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch which covers much of what is asked here - I am always recommending it :)


Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:42 pm
by Testigo
Dear Maringa,
I wrote these quotes answering your question about the possible Tolle references to the subject, but it doesn’t mean that I agree with them. I have serious doubts in this respect, because it is very evident that every person has a “tendency” to do certain things, to be an intelligent or stupid individual, to have success in his/her life, to be happy, to be sick… Of course everything can be explained in terms of genetics, cultural environment, family, and so on. But still, in the seas of movement following the flood of life in the cosmos, each of us is a unity, an individual with a role to play in the theatre of life, except that we do not know the theme in which we are actors and we have to improvise, but always between the limits that our biologic, psychological and cultural characteristics condition us. And while improvising, we are taking decisions that condition our role in the Now, and even in the future.

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:37 am
by dijmart
Eckhart Tolle videos:

On Destiny- (I edited to put the correct link, oops)

On Karma, etc.-

And Mooji on Free Will-

Hope these help.

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:54 am
by Maringa
Thank you! :D

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:14 am
by dijmart
Sorry, I just realized I posted the karma video twice, here is the one on Destiny:

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:27 am
by rachMiel
Maringa wrote:This seems completely horrible to me, because I like to think that I have all the power to create my own destiny, and that by choosing a new reaction to an old situation - I can create something new, something better.
I don't buy a predetermined life flow, find it rather silly. But, I do think that conditioning (DNA and personal history) has a HUGE influence on the thousands of decisions we make every day. I think we are free within certain boundaries to make decisions, create our destinies. The stronger the conditioning, the less free; the weaker, the more free. So I don't think you have "all the power" to create your own destiny; but you have some power. If you want more, a good place to start might be to become deeply aware of your conditioning, thus held hostage less by it.

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:52 pm
by randomguy
What do you guys think...?
I think it is a house of cards. Free will and destiny are cards near the top of the pyramid. They are stories that depend upon the story of a person who is born, lives and dies. They depend upon the story that there are essential objective conceptual truths that you do not know but need to know.

"Freewill and destiny last as long as the body lasts. Wisdom transcends both, for the Self (witnessing awareness) is beyond knowledge and ignorance." - Ramana Maharshi

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:45 pm
by Webwanderer
Maringa wrote:This seems completely horrible to me, because I like to think that I have all the power to create my own destiny, and that by choosing a new reaction to an old situation - I can create something new, something better.
I don't think this can be clearly understood solely from the human perspective. The rub comes from thinking we are physically human beings when the greater truth is that we are consciousness beings having a human experience. True free will exists in and comes from that greater conscious beingness.

As you stated, there are many decisions made about the nature of the human experience you will have prior to incarnating for a physical life. The problem you are now facing in the free will debate is that the clarity that is natural in your greater perspective is unavailable in the human context. 'You' are not a human. You are in essence a non-physical being that freely chose to experience a human life with specific goals and conditions.

That is not to say there is no free will in the human experience. You are still that self-aware consciousness that freely chose to be here. So there is a template that is laid out in incarnating for a given type of experience within which a lessor degree of free will can be exercised.

For example, in any given experience, you in your human perspective, can choose what meaning you attach to that experience. You can judge an experience this way or that, or not at all. We experience more vividly in isolation and feel it more richly in this unique human context. In this way we get more of a 'hands on' physicality experience rather than just perceptual. Pain and pleasure are unique in physicality.

Personally I like the Abraham material, and the near death and life between life stuff as well. They offer a context from that greater reality that brings a lot of peace in the storms of human existence.
Even the new quantum physics supports the greater reality teachings. It seems we are consciousness beings first and physical beings as a temporary experience.

Free will still exists. That freedom is part of our essence and is forever. It's just that that part of our greater consciousness that is focused in this physical experience is isolated in a relative microcosm of physicality and has a freely chosen purpose for It's greater understanding, growth, and evolution.

Identification with the human personality often causes concern such as you noted. Shifting perspective more towards our essence alleviates much of that concern. I think we are in a time of shift for much of the human race. That's why so much interaction with the non-physical is happening. It's a fun time to be here.


Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:10 am
by smiileyjen101
I just wrote this in another topic, shorthand I'll cut and paste it here
You may/or may not find the notions of Tzu Wei philosophy interesting, it says that there are Heavenly Stem influences - that which your soul came to experience knowingly - so like a pre-born question session that your soul wants to experience/answer in this lifetime;

and Earthly Branch experiences that come out of our choices in relation to the Heavenly Stem influences.

In more than 5000 year old 'charts' the Chinese people who subscribe to this philosophy learn to balance what is, by understanding the influences at work and riding them like the arrow flying to the target.
In some charts I studied, case studies on people's lives it was incredibly accurate - scarily so as it has no concern or respect for absolute privacy - kind of like the universal awareness outside of physical body that I experienced in an nde. The great thing is because in absoluteness no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience and because in this sense the 'judgement' (yaknow the big guy raining fire and brimstone on us or decorating our wings with pearls :wink: ) is or has been by many absolutely misunderstood, or distorted to have power over others in form (this too is 'okay', just brings different experiences.)
Maringa said: I get the quotes but does it mean that I have no power to change my destiny...?
Hmmm... Destiny - something that is to happen or has happened to a particular person or thing
Yes we are all going to end up at some point leaving behind the wonders of Earthly form.
According to Tzu Wei, most understood for me after an nde that made much sense of the 'bigger picture' that is not available to us in separation of form most of the time. It is in chinks to those with clair abilities and to and for those with increasing awareness of synchronicity in unfolding opportunities to raise our awareness and capacities and willingness to be all that we really are - love and compassion given the opportunities to experience fear and separation in experience.

ET does speak of this when he speaks of 'portals into the unmanifested' and spends a whole section discussing them. What he says though is love is not one of the portals - acceptance, silence etc are what allow the portals to be noticed, and what flows in to this realm through the portals that we can open is who we really are - eternal, oneness love energy.

So, technically in Tzu Wei understanding and supported in the wider 'through the veil' or light of oneness experiences', there are things that WILL happen, for which we have unknowingly signed up - the big message here is that it is all okay no thing can truly harm who you really are.
And there are (Earthly branch) things that MAY happen, depending on our choices taken in free will according to our knowledge - our awareness, capacity, response ability and willingness in the experience.

From this what we learn is that reacting in fear and ego takes us off on one experience, choosing love and compassion for self and other in separation takes us off down a different path of experience. We all end up in the same place (eternal love), just from vastly different journeys and experiences along the way.

As others have said there is a perspective of our selves far greater than we know if we solidify our perceptions of our selves in isolation and separation from the all.

In terms of the bigger picture, mortal death is a homecoming of a soul who has been on an amazing adventure of self and other discovery - a pioneer returned from the wilds - we feed our experiences into the 'whole', we feed our mis-takes, our triumphs and tragedies that really are no individual triumph and tragedy but triumph and tragedies by perspectives of the whole.

Like .... I have recently hung a multi-cut crystal in front of my computer between me and the window . it throws gorgeous absolutely random and temporary multi-coloured, different shape 'rainbows' around me and my room. They constantly change as the light fractures and splits and bounces according to external physical conditions and the swaying or not of the crystal. This probably makes no sense to anyone else, but it reminds me of the split-fractured reflections of perspectives in experience based on physical elements and experiences. Looking just at the multi-faceted crystal, wobbling with a slight breeze and my typing creating 'disturbance' - shifting energy - it is still 'complete', it doesn't fracture and split, but it enables light energy to split and fracture. That is what we are - light energy split and fractured portraying a temporary existence, shining our particular rainbow of experiences.

So, Heavenly stem 'things' will happen - by the combination of energies (colours) making up those rainbows.
Earthly Stem things 'may' happen - by the choices made in the absolute okayness of any level or combinations of levels of awareness, capacity, willingness and response ability.

Goodness knows the heavenly and earthly aspects are interchangeable - in Tzu wei charts some may have chosen experiences 'necessary' for the opportunity to find who we really are - and be love and compassion for self and others equally, and some of the same things may merely be 'earthly branch' possible choices.

In really basic sense some of these charted things might seem really irrelevant - you WILL have bushy eyebrows (for whatever reason that allows an experience to unfold - maybe in someone else's response to you) to you MAY have bushy eyebrows - but if you trim them too severely others will receive you as a sexual manifestation. Don't think your life hinges on the bushiness of your eyebrows - but such 'insignificant' detail of your design / presentation does affect your opportunities in experience.

And yes it does also allow for things like - you WILL contract a 'whatever' disease - in the Heavenly Stem realm of awareness experience, or it may hold it in the Earthly branch - you MAY contract 'whatever' disease if you chose this over that.

In all no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.

Are you master of your own destiny? Only as much as you are aware of the choices you are making in response to that which cannot be changed because it is fulfilling your 'bigger' picture desires of experience. Everything is and is not important - the destination is the same for us all, how we get there is our own grand adventure of discovering awareness, capacity, willingness and response ability, in separation - cloaked only - from who we really are.
The 'bigger' lesson of the LOA, in my experience, is knowing - being aware of the energies that we are creating in order to experience.

To your first question - is everything predetermined - no, everything is in constant motion of reflecting rainbows, like my crystal. As above some things for some people fall into 'agreed'/soul known experiences, and for others fall into the 'maybe' category. Regardless of who we are all things led to right here, and what we know of 'right here' depends on our awareness, capacity, willingness (to experience), and response ability expressed.

Hope this hasn't made it all more confusing.

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:08 pm
by doublec
Probably good to come to peace with the possibility that it's all predetermined and that you are merely a watcher mistaking itself for a doer/influencer.

Maybe it's not true, but it's probably good to be at peace with that possibility anyway, because it is a possibility.

If we can't find peace with that, why? What resists that model of reality?

Re: Is everything predetermined?

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:05 pm
by Maringa
Thank you for answering my questions so rigorously! I watched the Tolle videos on youtube and from that + your thoughts on the topic I draw the following conclusion:

Life IS predetermined as long as we are completely unconscious, because we live so narrow lives in that state that there's not much room for anything new to come in. In the unconscious state, we ARE our roles, and these are pretty much determined by society, culture and belief systems. However, in the awakened state, we have the power to break free because we can CHOOSE our reaction to any event. We don't live in reaction, and we don't see ourselves as victims anymore. When we wake up, we can create our own destiny in any given moment in time.

What do you think about that?