How do I know there is death?

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randomguy
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How do I know there is death?

Post by randomguy » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:48 pm

A while back there was a long thread about how to know there is no death. I have for a while had the inkling to ask the opposite. What the question assumes is that death is known. After all, why ask how to know there is no death unless death is in some way already known?

So, what is that death known? How is it known?
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arel
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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by arel » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:33 pm

Not sure where you are looking from asking this question, but when my grandma died, the fact of her death was apparent, body processes stopped. Maybe you can clarify what you are leading to?
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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by TemporalDissonance » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:43 pm

randomguy wrote:So, what is that death known? How is it known?
The "death" that is known is the event when animate objects cease to be animate (grow, move, etc.), be it plants, animals, people, etc.
"Death" is known when that animate object cases to animate.

This is the "death" known relatively.

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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:57 pm

To ask the question "How do I know there is death?", you must define what you ask. What is this death you ask about? Is it an event, or a condition? As consciousness is energetic in nature, and energy cannot be destroyed, can death be a condition, or is it an event, a transition of/from form?

WW

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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by randomguy » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:34 pm

arel wrote:Not sure where you are looking from asking this question, but when my grandma died, the fact of her death was apparent, body processes stopped. Maybe you can clarify what you are leading to?
Fair enough. It is apparent right? It's almost too obvious to ask. It's ubiquitous. Swat a fly, there is death. The veterinarian throws the body of my beloved dog onto the metal bed of her pickup truck. There is death. A friend checks into a hospital with pancreatic cancer and does not come back. My grandfather lies embalmed in a casket. The body of a fox lies in a road. And so on.

Where I'm "leading to" is another way to approach that other original question, how to know there is no death by addressing how it is known in the first place. By addressing what is apparent. Why do such a silly thing? Well for one, it is available. There can be observation of how death is known first hand. It is available for investigation, it lends itself to doubtless realization.
tdiss wrote:This is the "death" known relatively.
Yes, put very well. Death defined and also relative. Says wikipedia - "Death is the cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism". This is a pretty straight forward idea. It is a classification of cessation. It is a cessation among other cessations. There is it appears not a note of any song that lasts forever. And every body drops. This is apparent. It is of course also apparent that there not a note of any song that does not appear anew. As is the same with these super cool bodies.
ww wrote:To ask the question "How do I know there is death?", you must define what you ask. What is this death you ask about? Is it an event, or a condition? As consciousness is energetic in nature, and energy cannot be destroyed, can death be a condition, or is it an event, a transition of/from form?
To be honest I don't think definitions are where the excitement is. I tend to encourage taking definitions less seriously. But this is fair enough. What was noted above is that death is a type of cessation. So let's just cut to cessation itself? I think this may cover an ending to what could be classified as an event, condition, energetic change, or transition? Is this Ok? I would next ask, how do we know cessation then?

Says Ramana - "Deathlessness is our real nature."

In following along the spirit of recognizing the apparent, how is this apparent now? As in self-evident.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by runstrails » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:38 pm

rg wrote:
Says Ramana - "Deathlessness is our real nature."
This is so true. To me, one perspective of enlightenment is realizing that you don't die. There is death, of course, but 'you' don't die.

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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by arel » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:41 pm

randomguy wrote:There can be observation of how death is known first hand. It is available for investigation, it lends itself to doubtless realization.
Yes the contemplation of the apparent death of the body is helpful for understanding the nature of the present moment. Religions point to death, create rituals around death and talk about it for that reason I believe.

The idea that the present moment is what I am cannot be repudiated, as well as the idea that the space of the present moment never dies and has never been born. So the fact that I do not die and has never been born also cannot be repudiated.
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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:36 pm

randomguy wrote:To be honest I don't think definitions are where the excitement is. I tend to encourage taking definitions less seriously. But this is fair enough. What was noted above is that death is a type of cessation. So let's just cut to cessation itself? I think this may cover an ending to what could be classified as an event, condition, energetic change, or transition? Is this Ok? I would next ask, how do we know cessation then?
I'm still not clear on what your asking, but that could be because we come from different perspectives on life and being. Cessation of what? It seems we've changed terms, but our subject remains undefined.

One could easily make a case for or against cessation/death depending on the 'what' (ie: form/spirit/consciousness/whatever) is ceasing or dying. I agree that definitions are not where the excitement is but we do need to be on the same page of what is being referenced.

At first glance it is obvious that something is dying. All we need do is watch someone we know get buried and not see them again and we know experientially something in the life experience of that someone has changed. But is this an event, or is it a condition? For the physical human expression, it seems most likely a condition - NDE's excepted. For conscious beingness as essence, it is likely an event - NDE's included.

This of course is just my take on it, and I remain open to more clarity where offered.

WW

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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by SandyJoy » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:29 pm

Exactly right WW, does Life cease when you see a dead body? No, of course not. It's rather as plain as day that there is no death. Life goes on. What dies? Nothing, not a thing, nada, never.
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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:44 am

SandyJoy wrote:It's rather as plain as day that there is no death. Life goes on. What dies? Nothing, not a thing, nada, never.
When it comes to essence, or conscious being, I agree that there is no death as a condition. That said, when it comes to the conscious focus of attention that perceives itself as a specified physical being, death as a condition may fairly apply when the body is no longer viable. In this case death as a condition refers to the viability of the physical body as a unit.

As to the consciousness focused into the human perspective itself, my sense is that it merely transforms back into its pre-physical human perspective, taking with it whatever consciousness expanding experiences it gained from the human life adventure.

In this case, as you suggest, death is just another experience.

WW

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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by randomguy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:00 am

ww wrote:Cessation of what? It seems we've changed terms, but our subject remains undefined.
The subject is how is death known.

I'm talking about my dog no longer moving. About a flower drying up and falling over. I'm talking about a spider in the snow. I'm talking about the stack of yellow jackets in the yellow jacket trap. I'm talking about stepping over a smooshed squirrel body in the path.

I'm also talking about gone. Strike a match there is flame, then there is no flame. I'm talking about noticing a thought then the thought is gone. I'm talking about hearing a woodpecker, then hearing no woodpecker, about stubbing a toe and feeling pain, then no pain. I'm talking about impermanence observed.

I'm talking about how in time the observed world disappears as it is born anew.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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SandyJoy
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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by SandyJoy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:16 am

Well, yes, all things change, come and go, but the things 'essence' is not ever gone. Gospel of Thomas says the world is Light and It is a movement and rest, that is what God is. Quantum Physics is finding this be true now too. It's all Light, and infinite dimensions. God is not going anywhere and not ever losing or ending any part of Itself. Those images coming and going have their essence always in Being, the Essence that does not come and go. Kind of like the numbers can be erased but there always plenty of numbers if you want to write another one, an endless amount of numbers be their reality exists in the unseen principle called number, which is forever exiting there in the unseen principle no matter how many numbers you erase.

The idea of 'dog' never dies, the idea of your very special dog never dies; ideas cannot die, the tangible appearing of that idea can be destroyed, demolished, but the idea is always within the Divine Mind and Its Awareness of your dog, your very special dog, your unique friend and all his delightful characters, his individual doggieness, your very loved dog, the one you knew in form with all those qualities you love, he is still here, always.

I suspect that seeing things come and go, seeing things die is an illusion--a very useful and necessary illusion while we are in this world. It can teach us about eternal Life and does a very Good job of that-- it is all Love.

Remember that great story about 'Flat World' and all the flat people could not see the 3 dimensional world, from the flat view, it's a little like that. No one dies, they just expand into a larger view which does not leave this physical view, but includes it in the new "greater dimensional" view.

Another way to say it, is sort of like when you awake from a dream in the morning, the dream-like dimension is gone, you cannot remember your dream, but you did not change because of the dream, you are not affected by the dream, you just leave it and move on into your day.

We do have individual selfhood, not separate from the Eternal Illimitable Light, yet still the individual is always one with the Eternal all. All the while this individuated Self-Identity contains all the same Light even as it lives and moves a unique expression of that Light. It's happening in a fractal kind of way, each appearance is made of the same Infinite Light and contains the whole totality of All That Is--while yet, each remains the individual identity as a fractal of the One Real Identity. Not lesser than One, but a single, alone, only, individual self always complete in the fullness of Itself as the One that is being us. It is an "I" to "I" contact. One Self Knowing It's Self. Face to face, one to one, no other sees but you see, you alone are the One, or it is like you are the Whole Light as Self, and Self includes All that Is. You are totally divine the way you are and you do not lose your individual Identity when you pass over, leave the appearance of a body here.

Or think of dot and then think of a whole line made of each dot and then think of seeing that line from really far away and realizing it makes a circle and then see that the circle is actually a sphere and then think of that sphere as infinite without an outside or inside----then see that the dot, the smallest part of the whole (Identity as you individually) cannot leave the sphere--and will forever exist, it must exist in order for the Infinite Sphere to exist, and vis-versa.

You know how they always say to think of yourself as a drop in ocean, and that when you die you go back to being the whole ocean---I think it may be the other way around, the little drops of water make the whole ocean and the whole ocean is contained in each and every drop.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by randomguy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:08 pm

sandyjoy wrote:Well, yes, all things change, come and go,
Since I tend toward mastery of dwelling on the obvious and apparent I feel compelled to comment at the first half sentence. Coming and going is noticed. Change is noticed, isn't it. Noticed by what is interesting to me. For instance is that which notices change changeless or does that which notices change change along with what is noticed as changing?
sandyjoy wrote:but the things 'essence' is not ever gone.
The things I like or the things I don't like? I want the good dogs to hang around but not the biters. Do I get to choose?
Could the essence of things themselves be more like creation/awareness possessing no attachment to a thing gone, with so to speak equal love for the going as the coming? What does residing as that which notices change reveal about the nature of time?
Do the yellow-rose petals
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at the rapid's roar?
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SandyJoy
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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by SandyJoy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:09 pm

How do I know there is death? My answer is that I do not know there is death.

I simply do not know there is death. I cannot know death. I simply cannot know death, knowing death is impossible. I cannot experience death, it is impossible. How can I know death? If I could know death, I would not be dead.

So, to answer your question; Life cannot know death. The question " How do I know there is death" is obviously an oxymoron.

Awareness is All Inclusive and nothing is outside of This, so, good dogs, bad dogs, terribly rotten vicious man eating dogs, are all included here within this Awareness I am which is God's Awareness, only One Awareness, Changeless Awareness being All That Is.
Last edited by SandyJoy on Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do I know there is death?

Post by rachMiel » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:13 pm

SandyJoy wrote:So, to answer your question; How do I know there is death is obviously an oxymoron.
Sounds right.

We can only know death indirectly, by inference/comparison. That said, we can observe death constantly by watching the swirls of thought/feeling arise in mind, live out their lives, and fade away. Little deaths, thousands a day.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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