The importance of maintaining a discipline

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Onceler » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:58 pm

joe wrote:Would you mind describing it?

I assume that's for me.....it's a method called Spring Forest Qi Gong, there's a website. Kiki actually recommended it on this forum some years back and I think there are some threads on it. It is not, for me anyway, a spiritual practice, but rather a way of taking care of my body mindfully. Having said that, there are times I get very deep into it and use that clear space to get a feeling of who I am. This isn't a sustained thing like meditation, just a glimpse.....I tend not to linger.


I don't always notice the effects, but when I don't do it I ususally feel crappy throughout the day. It seems to work out kinks from daily living, I use it to help the effects of running.
Be present, be pleasant.

User avatar
Fore
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Fore » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:09 am

smiileyjen101 wrote: No purpose really, life happens while we're breathing.

Being aware of one's breathing, for me, is the start of relaxing into what is,
This may seem like nit-picking but I find the breath to be a bridge to the sub-conscious mind. My concern was with the term "gently" that you were suggesting, to simply observe the natural breath as it is, is very important to cross this bridge. If we begin to manipulate the breath purposefully we are not accepting this moment as it is, we are trying to change this moment to something we would like it to be(ie; softer gentler breathing). I like your post but would advocate just observing the breath as it presents itself, and not trying to change the breath, or manipulate it in any way.

If we try to breath gently we may induce states of calm, but this will be like a hypnotic state, the benefits are impermanent, no liberative wisdom can occur. If one observes the natural bare breath, as it is, one is experiencing the breath without craving. This can lead to liberative wisdom.
onceler wrote:I don't always notice the effects, but when I don't do it I ususally feel crappy throughout the day.
If one has anger/agitation and one goes to church and sings songs, or listens to sermons, or goes running, or does Qi Gong, one may leave this activity in a different state, but the anger/agitation is merely supressed, if the same situation arises the anger/agitation will return, the individual is not free from this. If one sits with the anger/agitation and observes the effects it has on the body ie; temperature, breathing, etc..... and one realizes the unpleasantness this brings on, one is more likely to come out of these types of thoughts. I'm not saying this practice of Qi Gong is without benefits but if done without wisdom no permanent change can occur.

Meditation if cultivated is a way of living, it is done 24/7 not just on the cushion, but in every posture. it is meant to be done while going to church, doing Qi Gong, Yoga, listening to sermons, eating, pooping, etc.....

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Onceler » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:49 am

Fore wrote:
onceler wrote:I don't always notice the effects, but when I don't do it I ususally feel crappy throughout the day.
If one has anger/agitation and one goes to church and sings songs, or listens to sermons, or goes running, or does Qi Gong, one may leave this activity in a different state, but the anger/agitation is merely supressed, if the same situation arises the anger/agitation will return, the individual is not free from this. If one sits with the anger/agitation and observes the effects it has on the body ie; temperature, breathing, etc..... and one realizes the unpleasantness this brings on, one is more likely to come out of these types of thoughts. I'm not saying this practice of Qi Gong is without benefits but if done without wisdom no permanent change can occur.

Meditation if cultivated is a way of living, it is done 24/7 not just on the cushion, but in every posture. it is meant to be done while going to church, doing Qi Gong, Yoga, listening to sermons, eating, pooping, etc.....
Exactly! That's what I was trying to say.....only you said it better. It's very freeing to do Qi Gong, or any other practice and not expect it to be freeing. I just do it because it feels good, and it promotes health, although it is work upfront and I'm not always in the mood.

I believe the value of things like yoga, tai chi, Qi gong, meditation, etc. are palliative and help to move energy and aid in recovery as ones awareness grows and harmful conditioning and psychological defenses deconstruct. They are not, as you said, the key to freedom. I have noticed that they can help with anger and stress, but perhaps it is being covered up as you say, although I don't feel that happening so much of late in my personal life. The Chinese believe emotions should not be extreme, either to negative or too positive. I have noticed a balancing with Qi gong, although I don't think this is the origin of change.
Be present, be pleasant.

User avatar
Fore
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Fore » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:00 am

Onceler wrote:
I believe the value of things like yoga, tai chi, Qi gong, meditation, etc. are palliative and help to move energy and aid in recovery as ones awareness grows
Awareness of what?

Increasing ones awareness alone is not liberative, one will remain trapped in the cycle of birth and death. One may experience all the planes of existence, even extremely subtle pleasant realities that have long lasting pleasant effects, but if the chain of becoming is not broken, one will continually traverse the planes of existence and eventually fall into the lower more painful planes of existence.

Become aware of the burning;

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"The ear is burning, sounds are burning...

"The nose is burning, odors are burning...

"The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...

"The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2214
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by runstrails » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:07 am

Fore wrote:
Awareness of what?
I know you asked Onceler this. But I wanted to add that when one realizes one's true nature (as awareness or consciousness or reality) then the whole notion of life/death/rebirth/karma/cycle of events in Maya ..are no longer relevant. Those notions apply when mind that thinks its a separate independent (dualistic) entity.

karmarider
Posts: 2141
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:00 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by karmarider » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:46 am

runstrails wrote:
Fore wrote:
Awareness of what?
I know you asked Onceler this. But I wanted to add that when one realizes one's true nature (as awareness or consciousness or reality) then the whole notion of life/death/rebirth/karma/cycle of events in Maya ..are no longer relevant. Those notions apply when mind that thinks its a separate independent (dualistic) entity.
True. I say the same thing using different words. It's not so much "increasing awareness" as it is recognizing that awareness/consciousness/true nature/I Am is all there is. Maya is the mechanism which allows truth to disperse into physical reality and in this created physical reality anything we think is possible is possible. Death/rebirth/karma/awakening/the law of attraction/separation and anything else is just a matter of thinking it up in the dream.

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Onceler » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:04 am

KarmaRider and Runstrails covered it well, from my perspective, thanks.

Let me be more blunt. I don't think a discipline has anything to do with anything other than confusion if one is doing so for spiritual gain. I do Qi gong because I like it, it takes care of my running pains and I don't get sick. What I mean by growing awareness is actually conditioning falling away.....I think. Not sure yet.

Experiencing existence is exactly why we are here, is it not? Why would I want to avoid that? I haven't experienced other planes of existence, so know nothing about that, nor do I know what you mean by burning.
Last edited by Onceler on Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Be present, be pleasant.

azooo
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:57 pm

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by azooo » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:48 pm

I wouldn't say its a question of discipline in itself but devotion. The later can manifest externally as an expression of discipline. And if it does not then its fine as well - only you really know what the lack of a formal practice (or other forms expressing discipline) mean.

User avatar
Fore
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Fore » Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:19 pm

runstrails wrote: But I wanted to add that when one realizes one's true nature (as awareness or consciousness or reality) then the whole notion of life/death/rebirth/karma/cycle of events in Maya ..are no longer relevant. Those notions apply when mind that thinks its a separate independent (dualistic) entity.
There are stages of awakening, for one with little dust in the eyes(eg; Eckhart Tolle perhaps) a sudden realization is powerful enough to eradicate greed, hatred and ignorance. For most realization is simply the beginning, they are still very capable of suffering from these impurities.

Awareness of ego(burning/vibration) is a very important discipline to cultivate, this is what Eckhart preaches indirectly when asking us to be aware of the gaps. He wants us to observe arising and passing away. This is done not for gain but for renunciation of greed, hatred, and ignorance.
onceler wrote: Experiencing existence is exactly why we are here, is it not?
This is what I'm referring to, "experiencing existence" continuous awareness of arising and passing of mind experienced bodily sensations, not simply intellectually experiencing.
onceler wrote: Why would I want to avoid that?
Because we sleep, we are not continually aware(with wisdom)
onceler wrote: I haven't experienced other planes of existence, so know nothing about that, nor do I know what you mean by burning.
I'm sure you have experienced other planes of existence, you do not continually feel crappy do you? We are continually moving from one experiential plane to another we just do not pay attention.
At the sub-atomic level, the arising and passing away of form is like little explosions, burning. All form is burning(misery).

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Onceler » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:18 pm

Fore,

I respect your beliefs and you sound very knowledgable. I am just slowly divesting myself of spiritual beliefs and the attending language, so I can't even engage in a lively discussion. It sounds familiar, yet foreign to me, as it is no longer my experience. I try to stick to my perceptions and experience.

I think the truth is utterly simple.....and I feel freer and closer to it as I jettison baggage, particularily spiritual baggage.....that, I think, is what I mean by growing awareness.....your explanation about different kinds of realization makes sense to me.

.
Be present, be pleasant.

runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2214
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by runstrails » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:42 pm

Hi Fore,
It's all good. Paths can be quite different and different personalities are drawn to different paths. Your posts are reminiscent of the experience based paths (like yoga and Buddhism)--where the emphasis is on achieving certain states. I'm drawn more to the path of direct knowledge (i.e., Advaita).
But I do agree with Onceler, most paths unnecessarily complicate and exoticize the truth which is so utterly simple that when you realize it, you simply laugh out loud!

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Onceler » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:09 pm

runstrails wrote:Hi Fore,
It's all good. Paths can be quite different and different personalities are drawn to different paths. Your posts are reminiscent of the experience based paths (like yoga and Buddhism)--where the emphasis is on achieving certain states. I'm drawn more to the path of direct knowledge (i.e., Advaita).
But I do agree with Onceler, most paths unnecessarily complicate and exoticize the truth which is so utterly simple that when you realize it, you simply laugh out loud!
That makes a lot of sense, RT. I guess I'm drawn to direct knowledge, having exhausted, or become exhausted on, the experienced based path. It's interesting, I got started on the whole spiritual thing in the early 80s with zen.....certainly a direct knowledge based path. Now have come full loop and 'get' zen a little better than I did back then.

I thought of this when I saw a thread about entering zen from there or here.....it took me back to those days of egnimatic, nonverbal riddling. Now I believe there is no need to enter zen from anywhere, we're in it! (The gateless gate, is no gate?)

Not laughing yet, but chuckling now and then.....
Be present, be pleasant.

User avatar
Fore
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Fore » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:06 pm

runstrails wrote:It's all good. Paths can be quite different and different personalities are drawn to different paths. Your posts are reminiscent of the experience based paths (like yoga and Buddhism)--where the emphasis is on achieving certain states.
C-mon rt, where have I ever posted about "achieving" certain states? I only ever advocate observing this moment as it presents itself, a sharp, penetrative, balanced mind may however experience this moment differently.
runstrails wrote: I'm drawn more to the path of direct knowledge (i.e., Advaita).
There is no difference rt.
runstrails wrote:But I do agree with Onceler, most paths unnecessarily complicate and exoticize the truth which is so utterly simple that when you realize it, you simply laugh out loud!
The path is the path, every enlightened being will teach the same path. Individual egos see with varying clarity, some techniques use different detergents. It is all good provided we do not get fooled about the final destination, there are some deep pitfalls on the path.

User avatar
Fore
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Fore » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:11 pm

Onceler wrote: I try to stick to my perceptions and experience.
Careful with that practice. :wink:

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: The importance of maintaining a discipline

Post by Onceler » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:19 pm

Fore wrote:
Onceler wrote: I try to stick to my perceptions and experience.
Careful with that practice. :wink:
My other analysis of ideas, thoughts, perceptions these days is to assess if they're fear based, be they cultural, political, or spiritual. It's surprising how much of life is based on our fear of it.....and how much others exploit this fear.
Be present, be pleasant.

Post Reply