The 4th dimension

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
Post Reply
User avatar
Admiral Akmir
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:07 am

The 4th dimension

Post by Admiral Akmir » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:28 pm

I watched an excerpt from The Cosmos with Carl Sagan, and he explained the fourth dimension using "flat land". In flat land, the creatures are basic shapes, they are completely flat, the Z axis does not exist for them, and so when a creature from the third dimension visits flat land, only a slice of it can be seen. The creatures in flat land can't really make sense of what they are seeing, the entity from the third dimension appears as a collection of bizarre objects, since it can't be fully represented in their flat world.

It kind of blew my mind to think of things in that way. Not just in terms of dimensions and space, but in regards to everything. Our experience seems complete, but only because we couldn't possibly understand something that isn't within our realm. Just as the third dimension was outside of the scope of flat land, is it not possible that there are things that are simply impossible for us to comprehend? How would we ever know?

The book "Sphere" kind of got into this as well, they talked about visitors from another planet or place, we always envision them as little grey men, but in reality, we have no way of knowing what they might look like, assuming that we could even see them or comprehend them at all. Would they attack earth? Would they make peace? Would they even have such concepts? All we can do is imagine them in ways that are within our scope of understanding. Just the thought that our experience is not all encompassing is really interesting.

Enlightened2B
Posts: 1933
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by Enlightened2B » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:57 pm

Admiral Akmir wrote: Just as the third dimension was outside of the scope of flat land, is it not possible that there are things that are simply impossible for us to comprehend? How would we ever know?
These are the questions that science searches for and questions through the study of physical reality and at the same time simply just cannot know or even begin to understand at this point because the answers lie outside of 'what is actually being studied' and the answers actually lie within THAT which is actually DOING the studying. The world itself is just a projection of sorts. It's mind boggling to think about when you realize that there is no world outside of an 'observer'.

It's fascinating why we experience what we experience and why there are so many different types of organisms that experience such vastly different realities from each other. Heck, take a human's reality and compare that to bacteria or a plant. Humans are the only living organisms that have the capacity to think logically because of the development of the human brain. Humans are the only organisms on the planet that can utilize itself to recognize its nature, so to speak. A dog has no concept that its a dog nor does it have any concept that its 'Awareness'. A dog just acts on instinct. It has no framework for conceptual understanding of anything....meaning.....understanding based on thinking and logic. A dog doesn't think it's anything, therefore there is no 'suffering' for animals in the mental sense that humans do.

User avatar
smiileyjen101
Posts: 3796
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by smiileyjen101 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:52 am

Humans are the only living organisms that have the capacity to think logically because of the development of the human brain. Humans are the only organisms on the planet that can utilize itself to recognize its nature, so to speak. A dog has no concept that its a dog nor does it have any concept that its 'Awareness'. A dog just acts on instinct. It has no framework for conceptual understanding of anything....meaning.....understanding based on thinking and logic. A dog doesn't think it's anything, therefore there is no 'suffering' for animals in the mental sense that humans do.
Spoken from the limited perception of human beliefs.

The bird that I live with would beg to differ. He might even retort with his usual response when he's not getting his own way, (& therefore 'suffering') .. in different situations and different tones he says 'Little Prick!!' to whoever is thwarting his desires, if that doesn't motivate them he resorts to pretty vulgar bird expressions :lol: Any human with half a brain would know the difference between those and his kiss-kiss affections and his more loving bird expressing when he is content.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

kutto
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:11 am
Location: Wollongong

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by kutto » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:02 am

Not entirely on topic but the mention of the dog and the bird just made me think of this

What is does make me think of is playfulness and joy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqD9LWkaupQ

Enlightened2B
Posts: 1933
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by Enlightened2B » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:49 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Humans are the only living organisms that have the capacity to think logically because of the development of the human brain. Humans are the only organisms on the planet that can utilize itself to recognize its nature, so to speak. A dog has no concept that its a dog nor does it have any concept that its 'Awareness'. A dog just acts on instinct. It has no framework for conceptual understanding of anything....meaning.....understanding based on thinking and logic. A dog doesn't think it's anything, therefore there is no 'suffering' for animals in the mental sense that humans do.
Spoken from the limited perception of human beliefs.
Sorry Jen, but it's not a belief that animals don't have the brain structures that humans have. That's science. If you think a bird or a dog can understand the concept that they are.....a bird or a dog or even Awareness, in the same context that a human does, well I'd say that's your own opinion and perhaps a belief on your own end.

I'm not saying animals don't have feelings/emotions or express themselves. Of course they do. I grew up with two cats, so I can attest to this first hand. However, saying an animal can feel or express is quite different than saying an animal can think and feel on the analytic level that humans do. If you've had the experience of having analytic discussions about the universe with animals, well that's your experience I suppose that I can't really comment on. 8)

User avatar
smiileyjen101
Posts: 3796
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by smiileyjen101 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:52 am

Kutto said: playfulness and joy
Nice one Kutto! We have a lot of that sort of playfulness and joy around our place too :D
Made me wonder if the cat wanted to play too!!

We too have crazy times with visiting dogs and wild birds that come to play.
Our feathered friend forgets that he too has 'limited' perspectives, just like we do.

He followed me outside once and got dive bombed by a huge crow and him, the crow and one of his wild pigeon friends flew over to a park across the road from us and landed. He assumed the huge crow was just 'playing' when it more likely wanted to eat him. He knows no instinctual fear of predators because he... well, he just doesn't imagine anyone would seriously want to hurt him.

He plays 'rarrrrggghhh' wings outspread and running around the house with a small dog that visits (or us - he starts it!!) saying 'rarrrghghghgh, then sitting back and laughing when we jump - literally out loud laughing at us! or Don't you DO it!! if the dog gets over excited; and fake ignoring then charging games, or jumping up and down saying Doh! Doh! Doh! to signal the start of a game or when he wants it to go to another level.

The wild crow that was trying to eat him sat back shocked thinking WTF???? this is a tiny parrot 'rarrgghghing' at me and speaking human - doesn't he know who I am? The P word did come up when the crow tried again. Funniest thing was a wild pigeon that comes to visit when he's outside was standing right next to him - shoulder to shoulder like buddies in a brawl!!
Saddest thing was me - in my human perspective - absolutely terrified he would come to harm in his ignorance that he's not really .... well, whatever it is that he thinks he is.
E2B said: It's fascinating why we experience what we experience and why there are so many different types of organisms that experience such vastly different realities from each other.
We do, and often we forget this.

E2B just saw your reply - the studies linked in the differences of perspectives thread might interest you.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

User avatar
TemporalDissonance
Posts: 406
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 3:41 am

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by TemporalDissonance » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:20 am

Enlightened2B wrote:That's science. If you think a bird or a dog can understand the concept that they are.....a bird or a dog or even Awareness, in the same context that a human does, well I'd say that's your own opinion and perhaps a belief on your own end.

I'm not saying animals don't have feelings/emotions or express themselves. Of course they do. I grew up with two cats, so I can attest to this first hand. However, saying an animal can feel or express is quite different than saying an animal can think and feel on the analytic level that humans do. If you've had the experience of having analytic discussions about the universe with animals, well that's your experience I suppose that I can't really comment on. 8)
Interesting E2B. If I were to apply biocentrism onto your example above: Couldn't we say that your analysis of birds, dogs, etc. is faulty because of our very own biocentrism?

Hear me out... "science" in its very nature is created by humans. It is based entirely on the human's vernacular and take on the world. What we consider as "intellectual thought" for example are entirely based on our OWN definition as humans. For all we know, other lifeforms on this earth may be "communicating" or doing all sorts of things that are beyond our own comprehension or dare I say "awareness" of them?

See, science is great, but in the end, it is limited by the very fact that it is created through our own perception as humans.

Similarly, my reasoning here is equally limited as it is based on our perception as humans.

Enlightened2B
Posts: 1933
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by Enlightened2B » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:25 am

TemporalDissonance wrote:
Interesting E2B. If I were to apply biocentrism onto your example above: Couldn't we say that your analysis of birds, dogs, etc. is faulty because of our very own biocentrism?

Hear me out... "science" in its very nature is created by humans. It is based entirely on the human's vernacular and take on the world. What we consider as "intellectual thought" for example are entirely based on our OWN definition as humans. For all we know, other lifeforms on this earth may be "communicating" or doing all sorts of things that are beyond our own comprehension or dare I say "awareness" of them?

See, science is great, but in the end, it is limited by the very fact that it is created through our own perception as humans.

Similarly, my reasoning here is equally limited as it is based on our perception as humans.
You're exactly right in that science is most certainly limited because as Max Planck said:
Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
That quote goes directly along with Biocentrism. It also acknowledges how Consciousness plays the essential role in all of life. The quote should REALLY say 'we ourselves ARE the mystery that we are trying to solve' as opposed to saying 'we are part of the mystery'.

We (as different species of organisms) most certainly all experience/interpret completely different versions of the universe. There's no question that this is true. However, that could also be said to be based on how evolved our brains are.

So, yes, humans version of reality is completely different than that of a pig, but the one thing that has to be taken into account that is not based on interpretation and belief is the simple fact (yes, this is a fact) that we as humans can study other species of organisms such as a pig while pigs cannot study humans. Humans can operate and help heal other animals such as a pig, but other animals cannot do that to humans because humans are move evolved than other animals.

So, it's an interesting topic of conversation and we can never understand why we experience what we do and why a pig experiences what a pig does, but ultimately it's undeniable that humans are more evolved creatures.

User avatar
Clouded
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:06 am
Location: Inside Clouded's body

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by Clouded » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:17 am

I saw the same video a couple of years back when I had a fascination for the Tesseract. Speaking of dimensions, in what dimension does the Universe really exist? Because if scientists say that the Universe is a hologram, does that must mean that actual reality is in 2D? I don't understand, it made more sense to me that reality was at a higher dimension than the one we believe we are living in.

People say that we live in the 3rd dimension since objects here have depth and I agree with them on that, but I don't agree that I am experiencing the 3rd dimension through my human eye observation because I can't be certain that there is an actual depth to an object unless I move around it (what creates the illusion of depth is the light in the room). And then again, I can't see all the possible sides of an object at the same time, I can choose to either see the front or the back, but not both. So basically, how I see is just as if I'm looking through a series of photographs on a 2D plane, I wonder how it must be like to see every side at once without getting a massive headache.
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by the key master » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:49 am

Admiral Akmir wrote:I watched an excerpt from The Cosmos with Carl Sagan, and he explained the fourth dimension using "flat land". In flat land, the creatures are basic shapes, they are completely flat, the Z axis does not exist for them, and so when a creature from the third dimension visits flat land, only a slice of it can be seen. The creatures in flat land can't really make sense of what they are seeing, the entity from the third dimension appears as a collection of bizarre objects, since it can't be fully represented in their flat world.

It kind of blew my mind to think of things in that way. Not just in terms of dimensions and space, but in regards to everything. Our experience seems complete, but only because we couldn't possibly understand something that isn't within our realm. Just as the third dimension was outside of the scope of flat land, is it not possible that there are things that are simply impossible for us to comprehend? How would we ever know?

The book "Sphere" kind of got into this as well, they talked about visitors from another planet or place, we always envision them as little grey men, but in reality, we have no way of knowing what they might look like, assuming that we could even see them or comprehend them at all. Would they attack earth? Would they make peace? Would they even have such concepts? All we can do is imagine them in ways that are within our scope of understanding. Just the thought that our experience is not all encompassing is really interesting.
Flatland, great book. I don't wanna get into outside influence, but are you saying little green men didn't come out of the 5th dimension to make crop circles?

Enlightened2B
Posts: 1933
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by Enlightened2B » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:21 pm

Clouded wrote:And then again, I can't see all the possible sides of an object at the same time, I can choose to either see the front or the back, but not both. So basically, how I see is just as if I'm looking through a series of photographs on a 2D plane, I wonder how it must be like to see every side at once without getting a massive headache.
You can't see every side of the object because your senses as a human being are limited. You can't take everything on direct experience because direct experience can be deceiving. For example, on direct experience alone, clearly the earth is flat. This is everyone's direct experience. If you never knew a thing about astronomy and never saw pictures of planet Earth, you would think that the Earth was flat, but we obviously know better than that now. Our direct experience is that the Sun actually 'sets'. Clearly this is our experience based on human perception alone, but we know better than that now that it is the Earth that rotates around the sun.

Direct Experience is inherently limited because it is based off human sensory which is inherently limited in what it can possibly experience. This is why technological advancements have made up for the areas of limitation in the human experience such as a telescope.

User avatar
ashley72
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

Re: The 4th dimension

Post by ashley72 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:38 pm

Admiral Akmir wrote:It kind of blew my mind to think of things in that way. Not just in terms of dimensions and space, but in regards to everything. Our experience seems complete, but only because we couldn't possibly understand something that isn't within our realm. Just as the third dimension was outside of the scope of flat land, is it not possible that there are things that are simply impossible for us to comprehend? How would we ever know?
Most people narrowly think about "dimensions" purely in terms of "physical" space and say time (4th dimension). But from a mathematical perspective - a dimension doesn't have to be purely physical in nature. In mathematics a dimension can be anything that is a feature, aspect, element, facet etc.

If I was studying the selling prices of houses, the features about that house, size, no of bedrooms, age of dwelling... are all "dimensions" of that data. A mathematician may analyse 100 features (dimensions) that relate to selling price of houses to be able to predict the future selling price. It would never predict 100% unless the mathematical model was perfect... which is unlike given so many dimensions related to the selling price.

Mathematicians study more than 4 dimensions of physical space using string theory. Which is just treating a point particle in space-time like a string... By treating it like a string you can find up to 10 features (dimensions) of space-time mathematically. Therefore mathematics allows us to probe a lot further into the nature of things and build predictive models.

If you don't use mathematics it's very unlikely you would predict anything with a high accuracy.

Post Reply