Tired of the play

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Onceler
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Re: Tired of the play

Post by Onceler » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:21 pm

By the way, I think ET mentions somewhere the ebb and flow of energy cycles....
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beginnersmind
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Re: Tired of the play

Post by beginnersmind » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:51 pm

Onceler wrote: Is it still winter where you are? Spring is finally here in the upper eastern quadrant of north america and I must say I'm losing the ennui you describe. I think there is a natural cycle to energy and has nothing to do with spiritual awareness or "advancement". It's just the flow of things. I am more in tune with energy after 3 years of Qi Gong and some acquaintance with Chinese chi theory and there certainly seems to be an ebb and flow to things that is much bigger than our bodies. I find the notion that we need to be blissful, happy, energetic, bright and curious all the time both onerous and annoying....and not true.


Great topic and nice that you are creating a thread that allows for the gradations of experience over the usual "I've so got my spiritual shit together"....
You practice Qigong Onceler? Cool, so do I. I've studied it with the lady that runs the Wise Orchid Martial Arts here in the Seattle Area and have been doing it for a couple of years. I really enjoy it as it helps to center me as a both moving and standing meditation. I also practice some Pranayama breathing technigues in conjuction with Dan Tien breathing that I find really enjoyable and helpful.

BTW, I so don't have my "spiritual" @#%& together :lol:

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Onceler
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Re: Tired of the play

Post by Onceler » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:07 pm

beginnersmind wrote:
Onceler wrote: Is it still winter where you are? Spring is finally here in the upper eastern quadrant of north america and I must say I'm losing the ennui you describe. I think there is a natural cycle to energy and has nothing to do with spiritual awareness or "advancement". It's just the flow of things. I am more in tune with energy after 3 years of Qi Gong and some acquaintance with Chinese chi theory and there certainly seems to be an ebb and flow to things that is much bigger than our bodies. I find the notion that we need to be blissful, happy, energetic, bright and curious all the time both onerous and annoying....and not true.


Great topic and nice that you are creating a thread that allows for the gradations of experience over the usual "I've so got my spiritual shit together"....
You practice Qigong Onceler? Cool, so do I. I've studied it with the lady that runs the Wise Orchid Martial Arts here in the Seattle Area and have been doing it for a couple of years. I really enjoy it as it helps to center me as a both moving and standing meditation. I also practice some Pranayama breathing technigues in conjuction with Dan Tien breathing that I find really enjoyable and helpful.

BTW, I so don't have my "spiritual" @#%& together :lol:
Haw! Nice to near about another Qi Gong practitioner. I love it too. I first heard about it from Kiki on this forum. I do the Spring Forest routine he recommended....all from video.
Be present, be pleasant.

beginnersmind
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Re: Tired of the play

Post by beginnersmind » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:24 pm

Onceler wrote:
beginnersmind wrote:
Onceler wrote: Is it still winter where you are? Spring is finally here in the upper eastern quadrant of north america and I must say I'm losing the ennui you describe. I think there is a natural cycle to energy and has nothing to do with spiritual awareness or "advancement". It's just the flow of things. I am more in tune with energy after 3 years of Qi Gong and some acquaintance with Chinese chi theory and there certainly seems to be an ebb and flow to things that is much bigger than our bodies. I find the notion that we need to be blissful, happy, energetic, bright and curious all the time both onerous and annoying....and not true.


Great topic and nice that you are creating a thread that allows for the gradations of experience over the usual "I've so got my spiritual shit together"....
You practice Qigong Onceler? Cool, so do I. I've studied it with the lady that runs the Wise Orchid Martial Arts here in the Seattle Area and have been doing it for a couple of years. I really enjoy it as it helps to center me as a both moving and standing meditation. I also practice some Pranayama breathing technigues in conjuction with Dan Tien breathing that I find really enjoyable and helpful.

BTW, I so don't have my "spiritual" @#%& together :lol:
Haw! Nice to near about another Qi Gong practitioner. I love it too. I first heard about it from Kiki on this forum. I do the Spring Forest routine he recommended....all from video.
Cool. I discovered it from a Tai Chi video and then my wife got me lessons for my birthday. I learned Yin-Yang Medical Qigong and Spiral Qigong. I also learned the Eight Brocades ,which I kind of do a hybrid of the three or do the Eight Brocades only if I'm in a hurry. I also do Zhan Zhuang standing Qigong at the end of my moving Qigong, to help cultivate chi. I'll have to check out the Spring Forest routine. I think I signed up for newsletters from this as well as Francesco Garripoli's newsletter

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Re: Tired of the play

Post by dijmart » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:16 pm

beginnersmind wrote:
dijmart wrote:What's your definition of awakening?
I don't have one, nor am I trying to achieve "enlightenment" or "awakening", as that would just be a pursuit of a conceptual idea that I made and then tried to achieve.
Thanks for answering, I appreciate the explanation you gave. To me, awakening just means the process has begun (regardless of what stage you are at) of consciousness being aware of itself as consciousness within this body/mind called Diana, apposed to consciousness being un-conscious and completely driven by the ego/conditioned mind without any awareness. Nisargadatta speaks of needing earnestness in order to progress on the spiritual path, but I guess from your answer that doesn't resonate for you.

Yes, these are concepts, because that is the nature of language, however the mind must understand at some level what is happening and be able to communicate in some fashion. Tolle himself was so confused by his instant "enlightenment" he spent much time trying to get the mind to understand what had happened by reading various scriptures and so forth .
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Re: Tired of the play

Post by dijmart » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:54 pm

Onceler wrote: Is it still winter where you are? Spring is finally here in the upper eastern quadrant of north america and I must say I'm losing the ennui you describe. I think there is a natural cycle to energy and has nothing to do with spiritual awareness or "advancement". It's just the flow of things. I am more in tune with energy after 3 years of Qi Gong and some acquaintance with Chinese chi theory and there certainly seems to be an ebb and flow to things that is much bigger than our bodies. I find the notion that we need to be blissful, happy, energetic, bright and curious all the time both onerous and annoying....and not true..
Interesting! I'm in Ohio and today we've only had our second warm day this Spring. On Wed. it's suppose to go back down in the 30's for a few days...ugh. Many of the posts have given me a bit to think about, including yours, I have no overt signs of emotional distress or negative thought ruts, as you said so well, except what I've already mentioned. Maybe I do have the winter blues?? I'm not dismissing anything at this point.
The weird thing is that while this brought down my energy a bit, it didn't really bother me nor was I consciously aware of it. I've come to think I was depressed, but not suffering from it overtly....
Hmm, I have no energy and have been very tired. Going to work takes every bit of energy. The only complaining I seem to do now a days is how damn tired I am. I was thinking awhile ago that it was my M.S. (multiple sclerosis), but maybe not. Now that you mention it I usually have a surge of energy in the Spring (not yet though) and a dip in the Winter. I also lose weight in the Spring/summer and gain it back in the Winter.
Great topic and nice that you are creating a thread that allows for the gradations of experience over the usual "I've so got my spiritual shit together"....
LOL...funny. :D
Take what you like and leave the rest.

beginnersmind
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Re: Tired of the play

Post by beginnersmind » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:58 am

dijmart wrote:
beginnersmind wrote:
dijmart wrote:What's your definition of awakening?
I don't have one, nor am I trying to achieve "enlightenment" or "awakening", as that would just be a pursuit of a conceptual idea that I made and then tried to achieve.
Thanks for answering, I appreciate the explanation you gave. To me, awakening just means the process has begun (regardless of what stage you are at) of consciousness being aware of itself as consciousness within this body/mind called Diana, apposed to consciousness being un-conscious and completely driven by the ego/conditioned mind without any awareness. Nisargadatta speaks of needing earnestness in order to progress on the spiritual path, but I guess from your answer that doesn't resonate for you.

Yes, these are concepts, because that is the nature of language, however the mind must understand at some level what is happening and be able to communicate in some fashion. Tolle himself was so confused by his instant "enlightenment" he spent much time trying to get the mind to understand what had happened by reading various scriptures and so forth .

Eric: Why would you think that earnestness wouldn't resonate with me? Not only do I agree with this statement by Maharaj, but I believe that this is absolutely essential to progress. Tara Singh often said that people often don't want to really change, but instead look to modification. To progress on the spiritual path, our earnestness is absolutely vital because it is only our willingness and participation in which real change happens. But this should not be confused with what I said earlier.

Earnestness is also the willingness to be as honest with oneself as possible. When I said I do not look to enlightenment because I then would be creating a conceptual idea of enlightenment and then trying to achieve the goal to attain the conceptual idea I created in the first place, this in no way meant I was not earnest in my spiritual path. It only means that I wouldn't make yet another belief and then try to attain the goal of that belief, but instead would be willing enough to set aside my conceptual ideas and "empty the cup" so to speak, so that it can be filled. Or put in another way, be willing to get out of my own way.

Yes, the nature of language is the use of symbols which convey conceptual ideas, but as Tolle often says, they are merely signposts to point towards something else, or as the old Zen saying says, don't just look to the finger pointing towards the moon, but look to the moon itself. And this is exactly why I say that I do not look to enlightenment, because the concept is not the thing. If I make a conceptual idea of what enlightenment is and think "this is enlightenment", then I have made a conclusion, and a conclusion is an end. Or to put another way, it is the confusion that the finger is the moon. And then if I try to take this conclusion and try to attain it, I'm not really attaining or attempting to attain enlightenment, but my conceptual idea of what I think enlightenment is. I don't see any real learning in this, but simply another attempt for the conceptual mind to reach a conceptual goal.

So instead, I try to be honest with this and say, I don't really know, and maybe in this honesty, willingness and earnestness in actually learning it will be shown to me. Not in conceptual ideas, but in experience.

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Re: Tired of the play

Post by dijmart » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:59 am

beginnersmind wrote: Eric: Why would you think that earnestness wouldn't resonate with me? Not only do I agree with this statement by Maharaj, but I believe that this is absolutely essential to progress. Tara Singh often said that people often don't want to really change, but instead look to modification. To progress on the spiritual path, our earnestness is absolutely vital because it is only our willingness and participation in which real change happens. But this should not be confused with what I said earlier.
Sorry for misunderstanding, but when you said-
I don't have one, nor am I trying to achieve "enlightenment" or "awakening", as that would just be a pursuit of a conceptual idea that I made and then tried to achieve.
And this-
I tend to stay away from the conceptual ideas of "awakening" or "enlightenment" and try to just look to the Stillness.
I took that as you wouldn't have anything to be earnest about, and what would you be progressing towards? I suppose because you put "conceptual idea" then you meant you would like to have enlightenment but not the made up "idea of it".

OK, I get it now.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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Re: Tired of the play

Post by beginnersmind » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:14 pm

dijmart wrote:
beginnersmind wrote: Eric: Why would you think that earnestness wouldn't resonate with me? Not only do I agree with this statement by Maharaj, but I believe that this is absolutely essential to progress. Tara Singh often said that people often don't want to really change, but instead look to modification. To progress on the spiritual path, our earnestness is absolutely vital because it is only our willingness and participation in which real change happens. But this should not be confused with what I said earlier.
Sorry for misunderstanding, but when you said-
I don't have one, nor am I trying to achieve "enlightenment" or "awakening", as that would just be a pursuit of a conceptual idea that I made and then tried to achieve.
And this-
I tend to stay away from the conceptual ideas of "awakening" or "enlightenment" and try to just look to the Stillness.
I took that as you wouldn't have anything to be earnest about, and what would you be progressing towards? I suppose because you put "conceptual idea" then you meant you would like to have enlightenment but not the made up "idea of it".

OK, I get it now.
Eric: No need to apologize. Though I might say that I'm looking for another way. I think to say that I would like to have enlightenment, but not the made up idea of it would kind of put me back to square one, because to want enlightenment, I would first have to have made up a conceptual idea of what enlightenment is.

This spiritual journey has been a strange one for me. I was not consciously looking for spirituality when I came upon it. It was only through a series of events that I came upon it. After being heavily addicted to cigarettes (2+ packs a day) and numerous failed quit attempts, I had finally been able to free myself from the addiction, and it wasn't as hard as I imagined it would be. This was due to changing my mind about smoking. I then began to share my experiences on message boards.

I came home from work one day and my wife told me that she recorded an episode of Oprah for me. "Why?" I asked. I didn't watch Oprah. My wife told me that they had an episode with Dr. Oz dedicated to quitting smoking that I might be interested in watching. So I watched it, and I was appalled at not only Dr. Oz's lack of understanding and conventional wisdom of nicotine addiction, but also the other 2 doctors on the show.

I immediately went to Oprah's website to see if there was a quit smoking discussion forum and sure enough there was. I began to speak to the people there about my experiences and how to change one's mind about smoking. It was during this time that Eckhart Tolle was on Oprah also, so there would always be this banner on the screen about this book called, "A New Earth." I would see this every time I went on the discussion board. It kind of peaked my curiousity. I was shopping for something else one day when I saw the book on sale. I really enjoy reading, so I thought what the heck and bought it. I read it, and it was OK. It was certainly different from other books I had read, as I was not into spirituality at the time. I then saw, "The Power of Now" and decided to read that book. I resonated much more with that one.

I then began to read books like, The Tao Te Ching, The Dhammapada, The Gnostic Gospels, J. Krishnamurti, A Course in Miracles (Tolle's main book he taught from when he first started teaching. This is also probably the book I have studied the most), The Bhagavad Gita, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Meister Eckhart etc.

Though it was reading Eckhart Tolle that started all of this. I've had experiences my whole life, but being a skeptic, I always pushed them into the back of my mind. I've had many dreams come true, OBE's and "hauntings". It wasn't until I started on this spiritual path that other experiences began happening. Intuition became more prevalent. I would get and sometimes still get very powerful flashed of light when I go to bed at night. Experiences of peace so deep and a feeling of unity and being enveloped in Love come and go.

But to bring this back, I think spirituality resonated with me even though I wasn't consciously looking for it, is because it is another way. Like all my failed quit attempts, they failed because I tried to change, but with the same mind set that kept me chained to my addiction. It was finally seeing it another way in which I was able to free myself. In many ways there is a parallel. Somewhere within me, I knew that the way I was doing things and the way I was thinking in my life was not working, yet I was still chained to the way my thinking and my actions as a result. In the preface of A Course in Miracles, there is a part where William Thetford is giving a speech to Helen Schucman after yet another argument at a board meeting with their colleagues. Exasperated, William Thetford gives a passionate speech to Helen and says, "There must be another way." That's what I'm looking for. My way with all my little egoic ideas and private world have not worked for me. It may seem like it has and on a superficial level it looks that way. But once I started this path, I saw all the illusory underpinnings start to be revealed to me. Underneath it all, there was/is a yearning and a knowing that this is not it. There is something else.

Eric

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Re: Tired of the play

Post by KathleenBrugger » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:23 pm

beginnersmind wrote:
Onceler wrote: Nice to near about another Qi Gong practitioner. I love it too. I first heard about it from Kiki on this forum. I do the Spring Forest routine he recommended....all from video.
Cool. I discovered it from a Tai Chi video and then my wife got me lessons for my birthday. I learned Yin-Yang Medical Qigong and Spiral Qigong. I also learned the Eight Brocades ,which I kind of do a hybrid of the three or do the Eight Brocades only if I'm in a hurry. I also do Zhan Zhuang standing Qigong at the end of my moving Qigong, to help cultivate chi. I'll have to check out the Spring Forest routine. I think I signed up for newsletters from this as well as Francesco Garripoli's newsletter
I am very intrigued by QiGong. I went to a wellness event that included doing a QiGong routine and loved it. I've been doing yoga daily for over 20 years and I really liked the energy-balancing quality of QiGong. The only person who teaches it where i live does it during a time I can't attend, so I've been wondering about learning from videos, so Onceler, hearing you say that's how you learned inspires me to go ahead and do that. There's something about movement that helps me keep my thoughts stilled. Just sitting is hard for me.

That was a really interesting story about how you came to spirituality, Eric.
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Re: Tired of the play

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:29 pm

Eric, I concur with your concerns about concepts of enlightenment. I have a definition that works for me, but is hardly worth debating the issue with others who have their own concept that they may wish to champion. What I have found helpful is to focus more on just steadily gaining greater clarity on the nature of being and life in all its expression and potential. It's less of a concept and more of an expansion of consciousness and understanding.

The how to's of this gaining clarity are many and varied of course, and worthy of considerable investigation - but that is another subject.

WW

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Re: Tired of the play

Post by dijmart » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:29 pm

beginnersmind wrote: Eric: No need to apologize. Though I might say that I'm looking for another way. I think to say that I would like to have enlightenment, but not the made up idea of it would kind of put me back to square one, because to want enlightenment, I would first have to have made up a conceptual idea of what enlightenment is.
I see, yeah personally I would say I do want whatever enlightment is, but I only have a loose "concept" of what that would possibly be and I don't really talk about it with anyone, because I don't want to box it in with concepts either, but I don't have a problem admiting I would take it if it fell in my lap..LOL :lol: See here I go describing it as something other then what I am...oh well, hopefully the spiritual police won't arrest me.

Thanks for sharing your story!
"There must be another way." That's what I'm looking for. My way with all my little egoic ideas and private world have not worked for me. It may seem like it has and on a superficial level it looks that way. But once I started this path, I saw all the illusory underpinnings start to be revealed to me. Underneath it all, there was/is a yearning and a knowing that this is not it. There is something else.
I really like this part! Especially, the part in bold. :D
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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Re: Tired of the play

Post by beginnersmind » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:56 am

KathleenBrugger wrote:
beginnersmind wrote:
Onceler wrote: Nice to near about another Qi Gong practitioner. I love it too. I first heard about it from Kiki on this forum. I do the Spring Forest routine he recommended....all from video.
Cool. I discovered it from a Tai Chi video and then my wife got me lessons for my birthday. I learned Yin-Yang Medical Qigong and Spiral Qigong. I also learned the Eight Brocades ,which I kind of do a hybrid of the three or do the Eight Brocades only if I'm in a hurry. I also do Zhan Zhuang standing Qigong at the end of my moving Qigong, to help cultivate chi. I'll have to check out the Spring Forest routine. I think I signed up for newsletters from this as well as Francesco Garripoli's newsletter
I am very intrigued by QiGong. I went to a wellness event that included doing a QiGong routine and loved it. I've been doing yoga daily for over 20 years and I really liked the energy-balancing quality of QiGong. The only person who teaches it where i live does it during a time I can't attend, so I've been wondering about learning from videos, so Onceler, hearing you say that's how you learned inspires me to go ahead and do that. There's something about movement that helps me keep my thoughts stilled. Just sitting is hard for me.

That was a really interesting story about how you came to spirituality, Eric.

Hi Kathleen,

Very cool, 20 years doing Yoga! I got interested in Qigong while doing a Tai Chi video that had a couple Qigong movements in it. The first one I did was called, "Rooster Crows in the Morning" and as soon as I did it, I was hooked on Qigong. If you're interested inany videos, Francesco Garripoli has a pretty good one called, "Qigong for Beginners". It is based on both Taoist and Buddhist Qigong. There is a sample of it on Youtube called Wuji Swimming Dragon. A good book on a Korean version of the Eight Brocades is also called, "Qigong for Beginners", by Stanley Wilson. It also has some other info like micro cosmic orbit and visualizations, etc.

I highly recommend to also learn about Qigong tapping. It's been awhile, but I think Francesco's video has this. Lee Holden also has a video with this, as also a "7 Minutes of Magic" video on Youtube, that I would say is more of a warm up. Actually, it seems there are a lot of Qigong videos on Youtube, LOL. Enjoy.

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Re: Tired of the play

Post by beginnersmind » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:41 am

dijmart wrote:
beginnersmind wrote: Eric: No need to apologize. Though I might say that I'm looking for another way. I think to say that I would like to have enlightenment, but not the made up idea of it would kind of put me back to square one, because to want enlightenment, I would first have to have made up a conceptual idea of what enlightenment is.
I see, yeah personally I would say I do want whatever enlightment is, but I only have a loose "concept" of what that would possibly be and I don't really talk about it with anyone, because I don't want to box it in with concepts either, but I don't have a problem admiting I would take it if it fell in my lap..LOL :lol: See here I go describing it as something other then what I am...oh well, hopefully the spiritual police won't arrest me.

Thanks for sharing your story!
"There must be another way." That's what I'm looking for. My way with all my little egoic ideas and private world have not worked for me. It may seem like it has and on a superficial level it looks that way. But once I started this path, I saw all the illusory underpinnings start to be revealed to me. Underneath it all, there was/is a yearning and a knowing that this is not it. There is something else.
I really like this part! Especially, the part in bold. :D
LOL, well it's not like I don't have conceptual ideas of enlightenment, and if that conceptual idea fell in my lap I wouldn't have a problem with it :-) , but I think this is where the self honesty and awareness come in to see when we super impose our conceptual ideas on reality or as A Course in Miracles says, how can you hear God's Voice when you are too pre-occupied with listening to your own?

I think the "spiritual police" have better things to tend to. :mrgreen:

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Re: Tired of the play

Post by beginnersmind » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:47 am

Webwanderer wrote:Eric, I concur with your concerns about concepts of enlightenment. I have a definition that works for me, but is hardly worth debating the issue with others who have their own concept that they may wish to champion. What I have found helpful is to focus more on just steadily gaining greater clarity on the nature of being and life in all its expression and potential. It's less of a concept and more of an expansion of consciousness and understanding.

The how to's of this gaining clarity are many and varied of course, and worthy of considerable investigation - but that is another subject.

WW
Eric: Yes, definately gaining a greater clarity. It's less of a concept and as I see it, an actual experience. For example, if I'm worried about something, if I sit back and just be still, I can feel/sense a calmness within me underneath the surface of worry. I remember when I first started sensing it, it almost felt as if it were mocking my emotions on the surface. :lol:

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