Tired of the play

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Re: Tired of the play

Postby Fore » Sun May 11, 2014 9:02 pm

dijmart wrote: You didn't answer the questions. Answering with another question is defecting.

What you are after is a right or wrong answer, if I act this way I'm right, if I act this way I'm wrong. I'm simply suggesting to look in and make you own choices based from wisdom. The body does not require cigarettes at all for survival, why place this in the body?

It's not failure if we continue with a habit, by looking at these habits closely we weaken them, bit by bit, until we come out of them. One may be looking at something else and using nicotine to suppress when they have had enough. If N was an arahant he would have looked at it all and come out of craving completely, so my question, why smoke?
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby dijmart » Sun May 11, 2014 10:20 pm

Fore wrote: If N was an arahant he would have looked at it all and come out of craving completely, so my question, why smoke?


So, this is your opinion, thank you. That's all I was asking for with what you were saying. By saying, "If he was... he would have ..." this is essentially judging and saying you don't believe he was a sage or enlightened based on the fact that he smoked. I disagree with you, but I don't need to debate about it further. I think he was, you think he wasn't.
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby Fore » Mon May 12, 2014 12:01 am

dijmart wrote: So, this is your opinion, thank you. That's all I was asking for with what you were saying. By saying, "If he was... he would have ..." this is essentially judging and saying you don't believe he was a sage or enlightened based on the fact that he smoked. I disagree with you, but I don't need to debate about it further. I think he was, you think he wasn't.


Well with my current understanding of an Arahant, I find it difficult to understand how he would be free from craving and smoke. That said I have found N's writing of interest. I just remain a bit skeptical as I have never personally sat a retreat with him and from my limited walking of the path do not understand how one could smoke and practice as I've been taught, let alone claim Arahantship and smoke.

dijmart wrote: You have not really contributed to the debate, other than saying if he didn't have a problem with it then why anyone else?


Why can't people smoke in restaurants anymore in North America?
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby dijmart » Mon May 12, 2014 12:18 am

Fore wrote:
dijmart wrote: You have not really contributed to the debate, other than saying if he didn't have a problem with it then why anyone else?


When/where did I write this? Was I talking to you?
I couldn't find it? Not saying I didn't, but I don't recall it and couldn't find it.
Just give me the page on this thread and how many posts down, so I can reference the entire post, thanks.
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby Fore » Mon May 12, 2014 12:56 am

dijmart wrote:Fore,

I see you can't/won't be swayed from your view, but just wanted ask (?) are you trying to say that because Nisargadatta smoked that he wasn't a sage or enlightened? Because that's what it boils down to really.

If he didn't see a problem with it, then why should anyone else? Aren't we all masters of our own temples? Perhaps, other sages liked one too many desserts and were over weight? .... Where does one draw the line? and who get's to sit in judgement of this really? It's only the mind that even cares, imho



If he didn't see a problem with it, then why should anyone else?

I was quoting this from memory perhaps you meant something else?
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby dijmart » Mon May 12, 2014 1:10 am

Fore wrote:
dijmart wrote:Fore,

I see you can't/won't be swayed from your view, but just wanted ask (?) are you trying to say that because Nisargadatta smoked that he wasn't a sage or enlightened? Because that's what it boils down to really.

If he didn't see a problem with it, then why should anyone else? Aren't we all masters of our own temples? Perhaps, other sages liked one too many desserts and were over weight? .... Where does one draw the line? and who get's to sit in judgement of this really? It's only the mind that even cares, imho



If he didn't see a problem with it, then why should anyone else?

I was quoting this from memory perhaps you meant something else?


Hmm, well, this isn't really going anywhere, so I'm out. However, it's not appropriate to actually "quote", in quotes, that someone said something that they didn't. Meaning you got the first part inaccurate and that made it nonsensical.
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby Fore » Mon May 12, 2014 1:45 am

Oops! I see what you mean now, I screwed up the quote thingy and put the whole sentence in quotes. My apologies :oops:
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby dijmart » Mon May 12, 2014 2:35 am

Fore wrote:Oops! I see what you mean now, I screwed up the quote thingy and put the whole sentence in quotes. My apologies :oops:


It's ok. :)
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby beginnersmind » Tue May 13, 2014 1:11 am

dijmart wrote:
Fore wrote: If N was an arahant he would have looked at it all and come out of craving completely, so my question, why smoke?


So, this is your opinion, thank you. That's all I was asking for with what you were saying. By saying, "If he was... he would have ..." this is essentially judging and saying you don't believe he was a sage or enlightened based on the fact that he smoked. I disagree with you, but I don't need to debate about it further. I think he was, you think he wasn't.


This is why I don't care for the term enlightenment or one stating they are/were enlightened. There are so many people making this claim and then you get the megalomaniacs such as Adi Da who claimed such nonsense as being 7th level enlightened while Ramana was only 6th level. Or Osho claiming being fully enlightened while behaving in materialistic, hedonistic, and sometimes even sadistic ways.

Why did N.M. smoke? Because he was addicted. To clarify an earlier statement, even though it doesn't intoxicate like other drugs or alcohol may, smoking is not simply a bad habit like leaving the toilet seat up. This "craving" was due to a physical need for nicotine and the physical addiction creates psychological beliefs.

Nicotine addiction works on the negative reinforcement principle, meaning that people continue to smoke not to feel intoxicated, but merely to stave off the withdrawal symptoms and feel "normal". For example, it's like having a bad headache and then taking an aspirin and the aspirin gets rid of the headache, but with nicotine addiction, the so called aspirin is the problem that seems to be the solution. Smoking a cigarette is only relieving withdrawal symptoms that the previous cigarette created, and on and on it goes.

People talk about nicotine releasing dopamine, which it does. Yet the brain cannot handle this, so it tries to find a solution to keep a balance. Being that nicotine is a foreign poison, the brain cannot regulate this, so the alternative is to turn down the brain's sensitivity to naturally release dopamine. The smoker then needs to smoke in order to artificially stimulate the release of dopamine. In essence, nicotine hijacked the brains neurotransmitters and fools the smoker into thinking that they feel better by smoking, when it was smoking that created the whole problem in the first place!

Smoking also activates the fight or flight response, as the effects of nicotine wear off, the smoker is then left with a feeling of being anxious, empty, and having a crave or desire for another cigarette. Two of the biggest triggers for smokers are stress and alcohol. The reason is, is that nicotine is a fast acting alkoloid. Stress and alcohol cause an acidic producing event within the bloodstream that washes away the alkoloid much quicker, causing nicotine withdrawal to accelerate. Both of these triggers create psychological beliefs though the beliefs are not the same in form. With stress, the smoker may believe that smoking relieves stress, when in actuality, it simply relieves the withdrawal symptoms which exacerbated the initial stress the smoker was experiencing. With drinking alcohol, the smoker may believe that smoking adds to the experience of intoxication, when it again is relieving withdrawal symptoms.

The "craving" that N.M. experienced from smoking wasn't necessarily the same psychological craving of wanting to become more, the crave was more of simply wanting to feel normal and the only way to do that was to continue to ingest nicotine to stave off withdrawal symptoms. Though the addiction definitely creates psychological beliefs based off of a fallacy.
I do think there is a correlation here, because before I found spirituality, I would speak about nicotine addiction as a belief in illusion that keeps the person within a prison.

N.M. was human, and look at the culture and time in within he lived. Back then it was considered quite normal to smoke and especially in the countries of Asia such as India, China and Japan for example. My wife being originally from Japan and having travelled their quite a few times, it was the last time I was there when I noticed that Japan had really started changing it's attitude towards smoking.

And look at the times that N.M. live in. Back then people smoked in gorcery stores, in hospitals, at the movies, in planes, etc. Smoking was considered to be a normal thing to do. There were ads from doctors on which brand they preferred. The Flintstones used to smoke Winston in commercials, etc.

In my opinion, N.M. was simply human and product of his culture and times in which he fell into the trap of nicotine addiction through smoking that created a psychological addiction as well as a physical one.
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby runstrails » Tue May 13, 2014 1:43 am

Seems to me there are many kinds of cravings and addictions that are considered good or noble. Folks that 'need' to meditate or exercise everyday. Seekers are addicts, and Eckart may be a 'presence addict' for all we know. Perhaps Ramana was a 'silence addict'. Ultimately even the desire for liberation can be considered an addition.
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby Onceler » Tue May 13, 2014 2:47 am

Makes sense to me, beginnersmind.
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby Phil2 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:08 am

beginnersmind wrote:smoking is not simply a bad habit like leaving the toilet seat up.


lol ... I would never have imagined that leaving the toilet seat up was such an addiction ...

:lol:
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby Phil2 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:27 am

beginnersmind wrote: With stress, the smoker may believe that smoking relieves stress, when in actuality, it simply relieves the withdrawal symptoms which exacerbated the initial stress the smoker was experiencing.


Maybe there is some other 'explanation' as to why smoking releases stress ...

First a small amusing anecdote: When it has been totally forbidden to smoke in offices some 10 years ago, smokers had (and still have, as in most offices) to go outside the building in order to smoke ... and there, in this informal 'meeting' of smokers, they could have a chat about all kinds of things, they can relax, take distance from their daily problems and speak together like friends, and comments about the daily events ... and I remember quite well that one of the (female) managers told me (I don't smoke) that she had quit smoking many years ago, but now she restarted smoking in order to attend those moments of sharing with colleagues ... and get there very precious 'first-hand' info on the organization's life and problems ...

Another important fact about smoking and stress is this: when you smoke, the smoker takes some moments of freedom, he takes some minutes to 'enjoy' smoking, and in this action he can be present, forget about his other problems ... and this very 'presence' has a stress relief effect ... it's a 'break' ...
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby Fore » Tue May 13, 2014 12:22 pm

Phil2 wrote: Another important fact about smoking and stress is this: when you smoke, the smoker takes some moments of freedom, he takes some minutes to 'enjoy' smoking, and in this action he can be present, forget about his other problems ... and this very 'presence' has a stress relief effect ... it's a 'break' ...


That's suppression, not freedom from stress, the stress will return.
Last edited by Fore on Tue May 13, 2014 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tired of the play

Postby Fore » Tue May 13, 2014 12:36 pm

beginnersmind wrote: Why did N.M. smoke? Because he was addicted.


Identification with form, not fully enlightened. must have been under some delusion to think otherwise.


Mooji smokes pot, hmmm, makes you wonder what these fellows are practicing and if it is the same message Eckhart is preaching? I'm not sure if Mooji claims to be enlightened, he certainly comes across as someone with a great deal of presence. Or does he simply smoke pot for medicinal purposes? If there are any?

Perhaps these guys are just really good public speakers, and draw a big crowd?

What does Eckhart say about nicotine and drug consumption?
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