End of Suffering??

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dijmart
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by dijmart » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:52 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
DJ said: Regarding his smoking, I think Nis said something to the effect of - The body has kept certain habits and I don't see anything wrong with it. The body is playing out it's own karma.
Yup, breathing :wink:
Yes, breathing and smoking between breathing :lol:
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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Rob X
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Rob X » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:18 pm

Phil2 wrote:Yes, physical pain must not be confused with suffering.

Suffering means there is a resistance to 'what is', that there is an inner conflict, that the situation is not accepted as it is ...and this resistance precisely IS suffering.

So indeed there can be physical pain without creating (optional) suffering, when this pain is accepted for what it is, just physical discomfort ... without making a psychological problem out of it ... just take some pain killers if you can ...
Perhaps this is becoming a semantic distinction now but I would maintain that in the first instant of something unpleasant happening to us suffering arises. By this I mean we would rather it were not happening. Beyond that I agree that we can (in many cases) manage our suffering. I think that this first instance of suffering is essentially a product of biology and therefore inescapable.

But broadly speaking, yes, if we define suffering as psychological suffering then (to a large degree) this may be said to be optional.

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Fore
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Fore » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:42 am

Rob X wrote: I would maintain that in the first instant of something unpleasant happening to us suffering arises. By this I mean we would rather it were not happening.
This does not have to be the case. One may recognise and accept that this and every experience is impermanent.


Rob X wrote: Beyond that I agree that we can (in many cases) manage our suffering.
Are you suggesting controlling if so how?

Rob X wrote: I think that this first instance of suffering is essentially a product of biology and therefore inescapable.
What about the unmanifested, or formless dimensions?

Rob X wrote: But broadly speaking, yes, if we define suffering as psychological suffering then (to a large degree) this may be said to be optional.
To simply define suffering as psychological suffering, seems to limit the teachings.

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Fore
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Fore » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:17 am

dijmart wrote:
smiileyjen101 wrote:
DJ said: Regarding his smoking, I think Nis said something to the effect of - The body has kept certain habits and I don't see anything wrong with it. The body is playing out it's own karma.
Yup, breathing :wink:
Yes, breathing and smoking between breathing :lol:
Natural breathing, heart pumping blood, stomach digesting food, these seem to just occur with or without thinking, but hand move towards cigarette pack, open pack, choose a cigarette, or roll a cigarette, put in mouth, locate lighter, light while inhaling, breath in smoke, exhale smoke, and then, the desire to repeat this must return, again, and again. Natural breathing is free from desire. Nis, was probably addicted to the sensation produced from ingesting nicotine. :roll:

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dijmart
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by dijmart » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:53 am

Fore wrote: Natural breathing, heart pumping blood, stomach digesting food, these seem to just occur with or without thinking, but hand move towards cigarette pack, open pack, choose a cigarette, or roll a cigarette, put in mouth, locate lighter, light while inhaling, breath in smoke, exhale smoke, and then, the desire to repeat this must return, again, and again. Natural breathing is free from desire. Nis, was probably addicted to the sensation produced from ingesting nicotine. :roll:
As I originally said, he said the word "habit", but sometimes he would deny "he" was smoking at all, so who knows.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:59 am

You answered your own query Fore -
Fore said: One may recognise and accept that this and every experience is impermanent.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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Fore
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Fore » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:49 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:You answered your own query Fore -
Fore said: One may recognise and accept that this and every experience is impermanent.
Yes and not to be craved for, perhaps Nis could not see this in regards to craving for nicotine. :wink:

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Fore
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Fore » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:58 am

smiileyjen101 wrote: The example above was not a display of bravery (for me) it was doing as you suggest on another topic - testing the theories and inner self knowledge, in practice (as in practical terms).
Bravery came to mind for the both of you, it was meant as a simple compliment. That must have been a challenging experience to navigate.

alex
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by alex » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:39 pm

Ya, you still feel it all I think, more intensely, more purely. But it is a good hurt. I cry often, fully letting go into the pain and relishing the still emptiness that follows. Give me all the pain you can throw at me, ill burn in it. I will not abide suffering though, being caught in a painful mental story. Just the pain of now and the awareness of the present cause.
This is not a pain free path or destination, of that I can assure you!


When love beckons to you, follow him,
Though his ways are hard and steep.
And when his wings enfold you yield to him,
Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.
And when he speaks to you believe in him,
Though his voice may shatter your dreams
as the north wind lays waste the garden.

For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.
Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,
So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.

Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.
He threshes you to make you naked.
He sifts you to free you from your husks.
He grinds you to whiteness.
He kneads you until you are pliant;
And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.

All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,
Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,
Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.
Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.

-Kahil Gibran

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Rob X
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Rob X » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:53 pm

Fore wrote:This does not have to be the case. One may recognise and accept that this and every experience is impermanent.
You're walking your dog along a deserted coastal cliff path. Suddenly the ground gives way and you plunge a hundred meters down the cliff face and land on a narrow ledge. There is no way off the ledge, the cliff face is sheer. The wind is picking up and the sea is raging below. In the immediacy of this situation the body-mind will, by default, induce anxiety/unease. There is no volition in this - there's no choice - this is what the biology of the body-mind is evolved to do.

As we take stock of the situation perhaps we can reason and accept that this experience is impermanent.

Sometimes in threatening or traumatic situations our aversion is largely, or even purely, psychological and disproportional to the situation. When this is realised, this reaction can be scaled back i.e. managed. So this is about disproportional suffering. Disproportional suffering is unnecessary.

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treasuretheday
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by treasuretheday » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:07 pm

Fore wrote:...it was meant as a simple compliment. That must have been a challenging experience to navigate.
Good observation. Receiving can be difficult. It can open the door to feelings of vulnerability.
Life itself is the proper binge.
-Julia Child

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Fore
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Fore » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:32 pm

treasuretheday wrote:
Fore wrote:...it was meant as a simple compliment. That must have been a challenging experience to navigate.
Good observation. Receiving can be difficult. It can open the door to feelings of vulnerability.
Liking your style Treasure. Working with aversion is one thing, working with craving can be another beast entirely. :)

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Fore
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Fore » Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:47 pm

Rob X wrote: In the immediacy of this situation the body-mind will, by default, induce anxiety/unease. There is no volition in this - there's no choice - this is what the biology of the body-mind is evolved to do.
This would be dependent on the level of identification.
Rob X wrote: As we take stock of the situation perhaps we can reason and accept that this experience is impermanent.
Temporary relief. This is not liberative wisdom.
Rob X wrote: Sometimes in threatening or traumatic situations our aversion is largely, or even purely, psychological and disproportional to the situation. When this is realised, this reaction can be scaled back i.e. managed. So this is about disproportional suffering. Disproportional suffering is unnecessary.
Yes, but I'm suggesting not merely limiting this use of the word suffering to the gross unpleasantness. Often in apparently pleasant situations our craving is largely, or even purely, psychological, and disproportional to the situation. When this is realized and merely observed the reactive process stops. So yes, this is about disproportional suffering. Disproportional suffering is unnecessary.

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Rob X
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Rob X » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:14 pm

Fore wrote:
Rob X wrote: In the immediacy of this situation the body-mind will, by default, induce anxiety/unease. There is no volition in this - there's no choice - this is what the biology of the body-mind is evolved to do.
This would be dependent on the level of identification.
This is prior to identification - in the same way that indigestion is prior to identification. Just the functioning of the universe. As one Buddhist teacher used to say, 'just empty phenomena rolling on'.

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Fore
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Re: End of Suffering??

Post by Fore » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:48 pm

Rob X wrote: This is prior to identification - in the same way that indigestion is prior to identification. Just the functioning of the universe.
That is only apparently so.
I was travelling about 40km/hr on my road bike when a truck travelling in the opposite direction pulled in front of me, the mind accepted there was going to be a collision(no action could be taken to avoid this). The mind became incredibly quiet and everything slowed down and became intensely focussed and still. There was a violent collision which I have detailed memory of, and then there was me lying on the road listening to all the people fuss about and panic calling 911, while I quietly assessed my injuries which were to my surprise very superficial. I literally could have rode home if the ambulance attendents would have let me.

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