Assimilation after Self-realization

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dijmart
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Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by dijmart » Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:34 pm

In another thread RT helped me to realize that there is an assimilation process after Self-realization. I'm thankful for that discussion, because I know and have experienced myself as the Self and the world as the Self through self inquiry or for those who dislike the "I" word, consciousness has become conscious of itself and has realized the Self in this body/mind. I have been resting in this knowledge/experience for awhile now, but didn't consider myself Self-realized, because the ego waxes and wanes, the pain body or vasanas still are strong and react. So, I have found this confusing? And have been sort of waiting for them to dissipate.

I did some research and It seems that the negative ego tendencies and pain body/vasanas need to be "starved" of attention and identification. One can be Self realized with still having negative ego identifications and pain body eruptions, which will make it seem as though they are not self-realized. One must consciously dis-identify and sit with the strong emotions and feelings of wanting to react that presents itself to allow them to to dissipate in the awareness of being present, moment by moment. They have to be starved of attention through non-reaction. A noticing, honest looking and acknowledgement within oneself seems necessary, but sitting with the emotions/tendencies in non-reaction is key from what I gather. Also, this is a clearing process and will take awhile before the deep seated vasanas have cleared.

Recently, I have not done so good with any of this, so that's why I looked it up. I knew I wasn't doing something right here, because I'm still reacting. Anyone want to share there experience of self assimilation to help others with the process?.. or comments on the subject?
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Phil2
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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by Phil2 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:05 pm

dijmart wrote:
Recently, I have not done so good with any of this, so that's why I looked it up. I knew I wasn't doing something right here, because I'm still reacting. Anyone want to share there experience of self assimilation to help others with the process?.. or comments on the subject?
Well your honesty here honors you DJ :)

Indeed Ramana often said that intellectual understanding was not enough to firmly abide in the Self because the vasanas (call it the habitual tendencies or conditioning) are very strong and still operate.

So the key is about surrendering to 'what is' ... it means that any situation life offers us must not be resisted, but accepted as it is (which does not mean that an action cannot be taken about this situation, but first the situation must be fully accepted as it is).

And as Eckhart said, we have always two opportunities to accept 'what is' ... the first opportunity is to accept the situation when it happens, and if we fail in this and that we enter in an emotional reaction like anger or violence, which is a resistance, then the second opportunity is to accept the fact of this emotional state ... and stay with that ... not resist the emotion ...

I like this statement from Carl Jung:

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."

... and this is not limited to other people, it is also true for any situation of life, when your PC fails or when your car won't start or when you have to make a queue in a public service etc ...

Surrender ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

dijmart
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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by dijmart » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:54 pm

Phil2 wrote:
dijmart wrote:
Recently, I have not done so good with any of this, so that's why I looked it up. I knew I wasn't doing something right here, because I'm still reacting. Anyone want to share there experience of self assimilation to help others with the process?.. or comments on the subject?
Well your honesty here honors you DJ :)
The universal consciousness knows better then I what is needed for my development. It seems you were part of the design to awaken me further. The "little me" didn't like it one bit, but I don't like cough syrup either, but still need it at times. I apologize for my part in the bickering.
So the key is about surrendering to 'what is' ... it means that any situation life offers us must not be resisted, but accepted as it is (which does not mean that an action cannot be taken about this situation, but first the situation must be fully accepted as it is).

And as Eckhart said, we have always two opportunities to accept 'what is' ... the first opportunity is to accept the situation when it happens, and if we fail in this and that we enter in an emotional reaction like anger or violence, which is a resistance, then the second opportunity is to accept the fact of this emotional state ... and stay with that ... not resist the emotion ...
I think that when awakening (or if you haven't yet) life will give you what is best for you to awaken or for continued awakening. It will present you with the situation that will bring the tendencies/vasanas/pain body to the surface to give an opportunity to dissolve them, if it's missed, you will be presented with similar situations through out your life to work on them. If you don't dissolve them, unfortunately they get stronger with each cycle they show up, making them more difficult to deal with as time goes on. So, the accepting "what is", is also accepting that we are conditioned, have vasanas and will have to be proactive in dissolving them- like having withdrawal symptoms. Also, accepting that this may be unpleasant at times, but necessary, for continued spiritual assimilation.

Thanks for your comments :D
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Ralph
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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by Ralph » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:59 pm

Phil2 wrote:So the key is about surrendering to 'what is' ...
Surrendering to 'what is' is a good place to start but to surrender 'the one that is doing the surrendering' is a great place to finish. This is the final obstacle.

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EnterZenFromThere
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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:02 pm

Dij: "but I don't like cough syrup either, but still need it at times."

Haha I love this!

Your description of accepting what is, even the seemingly bad stuff, fits with my own experience so far. I'm not convinced everyone is here in this current life to wake up, as I don't feel qualified to judge the value of experience from the perspective of God/Supreme Consciousness[insert grand word]. But perhaps in the grand scheme of multiple lives that is the ultimate end goal. It's fun to contemplate!

I guess I'm in a process of assimilation or something at the moment too. Time recently has been spent with my attention in the body throughout the day and shining my Light of Presence on the body as it activates conditioned responses as I encounter old events/thoughts/feelings. In that state of allowing what is, I actually feel the Light grow instead of shrink in response to negativity. Like negativity is kindling for my Light's fire! It feels like resistance is a signpost God put in us pointing to the key that opens our cell door :)

Love,

Jack

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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by runstrails » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:21 pm

Hi Dij,
Yes, assimilation is important in my book. Understanding what is going on is the first step, of course. Other stuff that I find helpful includes:

1. I've found that acceptance (vs. denial or starving as you say) is a much better way to decreases strong tendencies and conditioning (vasanas). And I accept that some will always be there (after all vasanas are what make the world go around!). For example, I am very competitive in all walks of life and I have struggled with this a lot. But now even though it has decreased a lot, this trait is still part of my personality. So identify your particular vasanas and watch and accept them. You'll begin to see how their hold on you decreases :D. Adya said that he sat in coffee shops and filled notebooks trying to do this kind of self analysis.

2. It's important to have a framework of how the world (maya) operates. Of course, this could be totally different from what other people think. But it's your understanding and you can then live in a more relaxed fashion within this framework. My framework is close to vedanata's version but I came to it after a lot of self inquiry on my part. Within my framework, I realize that there is very little that I control in terms of what happens. This lack of control has really freed me up to relax. I think it was Ramana Maharishi who said something to the effect of 'after self realization you realize that you don't have to carry any heavy burdens in life. It's like you have stepped on a train you can put down your load. If you realize you are on a train, why would you still be carrying your suitcase! Let (life) the train carry it for you'.

Practicing 'Karma Yoga' is part of this relinquishing control. You dedicate your actions to the universe and accept any result that comes about (good or bad). You are not in charge of the results of your actions---only the actions themselves. This is the Gita's most important lesson. But most people, after they are self-realized don't understand that they still need to do the hard work (via karma yoga or some other way) to allow the ego to wind down and not dominate--to realize that ego is not in control of anything. Unfortunately, some even glorify the ego. It all depends on your worldview.

So this change in worldview is very important. And it goes deep. What is your opinion on free-will, on the purpose of life etc.. Once you have a working world view it will be easier to assimilate self-realization. A perfectly good world view of course is "I don't know anything really!" As long as you can stick to it! This kind of worldview (if you really believe it) will allow you to relinquish egoic control quite a bit.

3. Another important factor is to 'be the self' or revert to your true nature when difficult situations arise. In order for that to happen, you need to have 'practiced'. So when Phil2 pushes your buttons on the forum--use it as practice. Rest in your true nature as you read the post and then either respond or don't bother to respond to it :wink:.

The more you 'practice' resting in your true nature---the more your worldview will change. And it takes clock time. It takes about 10,000 hours to become good at anything, playing an instrument, becoming an author etc.. Similarly, the more you do this the more your brain gets re-wired till your primary identity is the self (no matter what role you are playing in maya). It took Nisargdutta 3 years, Ramana 7 years and ET a couple of years too. So who knows how long for the rest of us.

4. Finally, none of this is even a remote possibility if there is any lingering doubt about your true nature. If there is any doubt then that needs to be resolved first.

Ultimately, the assimilation process is hard work and only the traditional methods talk about doing the work (like Vedanta and Buddhism). They recommend other techniques like prayer, meditation etc.. (which did not work for me). You'll note that RM and Nisargdutta had regular prayer meetings and Buddha meditated regularly after his realization. Why would they need to do this if self-realization was the final stage? Assimilation is a daily process.

Thanks for this thread. It was good to think these things through for me. You'll find your own method of course. But I hope these points can help.

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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by Phil2 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:56 pm

runstrails wrote:I think it was Ramana Maharishi who said something to the effect of 'after self realization you realize that you don't have to carry any heavy burdens in life. It's like you have stepped on a train you can put down your load. If you realize you are on a train, why would you still be carrying your suitcase! Let (life) the train carry it for you'.
Yes, I can confirm Ramana used this metaphor quite often ... he meant no need to worry about what happens in your life ... do whatever is good and happens what can happen ... you are only responsible for your action, not for the results ...
Practicing 'Karma Yoga' is part of this relinquishing control. You dedicate your actions to the universe and accept any result that comes about (good or bad). You are not in charge of the results of your actions---only the actions themselves.
Right, action is important, not the results ... I would say quite the opposite of what modern Business Schools and Management theories teach you ... :-)

So when Phil2 pushes your buttons on the forum--use it as practice. Rest in your true nature as you read the post and then either respond or don't bother to respond to it :wink:.
Lol ... of course I'm here to serve even if the 'syrup' has a bad taste ...

:lol:
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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EnterZenFromThere
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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:02 pm

I've started to enjoy your syrup-y taste Phil

;)

(Didn't think I'd ever be writing a post like that when I first signed up here!)

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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by runstrails » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:37 pm

:lol:
We thank you for your service, Phil!

dijmart
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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by dijmart » Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:20 pm

Wow RT, thanks! I need to go over your post a few times! :D
EnterZenFromThere wrote: I'm not convinced everyone is here in this current life to wake up, as I don't feel qualified to judge the value of experience from the perspective of God/Supreme Consciousness[insert grand word]. But perhaps in the grand scheme of multiple lives that is the ultimate end goal. It's fun to contemplate!
I currently see it this way also...and feel that if you're meant to awaken in this life, you will.
I guess I'm in a process of assimilation or something at the moment too.


:wink: That's great Jack! I wish you continued success on your journey. I feel I'm at peace with my past, some of which use to haunt me with bad memories, anxiety and such do to replaying the old tapes in the mind, I spent a good deal of time resolving it internally. So, now it's the actual conditioning/ego and pain body that creeps into "current events" that need to lose momentum and lesson. Perhaps, it will not leave completely? But, go into the background and what I am, the Self, will shine in the foreground, therefore when ego, conditioning, pain body does get activated, if it gets activated?, it is seen for what it is, not reacted upon and slithers away. Today's a new day, with a new outlook and new attitude.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

beginnersmind
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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by beginnersmind » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:55 am

dijmart wrote:In another thread RT helped me to realize that there is an assimilation process after Self-realization. I'm thankful for that discussion, because I know and have experienced myself as the Self and the world as the Self through self inquiry or for those who dislike the "I" word, consciousness has become conscious of itself and has realized the Self in this body/mind. I have been resting in this knowledge/experience for awhile now, but didn't consider myself Self-realized, because the ego waxes and wanes, the pain body or vasanas still are strong and react. So, I have found this confusing? And have been sort of waiting for them to dissipate.

I did some research and It seems that the negative ego tendencies and pain body/vasanas need to be "starved" of attention and identification. One can be Self realized with still having negative ego identifications and pain body eruptions, which will make it seem as though they are not self-realized. One must consciously dis-identify and sit with the strong emotions and feelings of wanting to react that presents itself to allow them to to dissipate in the awareness of being present, moment by moment. They have to be starved of attention through non-reaction. A noticing, honest looking and acknowledgement within oneself seems necessary, but sitting with the emotions/tendencies in non-reaction is key from what I gather. Also, this is a clearing process and will take awhile before the deep seated vasanas have cleared.

Recently, I have not done so good with any of this, so that's why I looked it up. I knew I wasn't doing something right here, because I'm still reacting. Anyone want to share there experience of self assimilation to help others with the process?.. or comments on the subject?

I won't get into the self-realized thing, but here is some of my experiences. What I began to notice on my own journey was (I'll speak in past tense in this reply, but it sometimes still happens) that when I started realizing all that I was projecting onto the world, that projection started to come back towards me. In a way it was kind of internalizing what I had been trying to get rid of. In other words, this unconscious blame that I was projecting "out there" became conscious and I saw clearly that it was within myself and not in the world itself. This in itself caused conflict, because the world could no longer be my scape goat. I had to accept responsibility and the realization of what I had unconsciously been doing caused me even more discomfort.


I'm not sure if "my ego" became more negative or if I became very conscious of the negativity itself. For example, there is the phrase "sick satisfaction" and it is often used in referring to egoic activities like arguments, conflicts, etc. I began to see the truth in this phrase, because I began to notice very intently that when I was in conflict, even when I thought I was right or clever, etc. I felt a sickly feeling within my body. A feeling that looking back had always been there, but with the mind addicted to the "satisfaction" had been pushed to the back of the mind.

The threshold to pain so to speak seemed to drop so dramatically, that attempting to engage in old egoic patterns brought severe discomfort and even kind of a sickly feeling within the mind. This of course brought conflict on top of the conflict that brought on the discomfort in the first place. My mind was no longer getting that "high" it used to, but it was feeling the negative aspects of that "high" at a heightened conscious level.


Yes, it is helpful to simply look at our thoughts without judgment, but we can be active as well as passive. We can ask to see a person/place/ situation in a different way for example. Meditiation is very helpful, especially specific meditations on things like gratitude, forgiveness, love, empathy, etc. I practice Qigong also. The practice of breath can be tremendous for mind and body. Traditional prayer can be helpful to some and/or contemplative prayer of Chrisitan Mystics. Shadow work. Self Inquiry either Ramana's method or looking at yourself via John Sherman's method can be helpful. Cultivating relationship, etc. can all be very beneficial. Even writing.

dijmart
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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by dijmart » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:58 am

beginnersmind wrote: I'm not sure if "my ego" became more negative or if I became very conscious of the negativity itself. For example, there is the phrase "sick satisfaction" and it is often used in referring to egoic activities like arguments, conflicts, etc. I began to see the truth in this phrase, because I began to notice very intently that when I was in conflict, even when I thought I was right or clever, etc. I felt a sickly feeling within my body. A feeling that looking back had always been there, but with the mind addicted to the "satisfaction" had been pushed to the back of the mind.
Yep, I was getting a hold on this (conflicts), because I was conscious more often, until about 3-4 weeks ago when my life situation changed for the worst, in several ways, most temporary, except for the health of my in laws. Since then, unconsciousness alternated with consciousness like playing ping-pong. I started feeling like a person with split personality do to the stress the life situation caused and inconsistent nature of my behavior...back and forth, back and forth.
The threshold to pain so to speak seemed to drop so dramatically, that attempting to engage in old egoic patterns brought severe discomfort and even kind of a sickly feeling within the mind. This of course brought conflict on top of the conflict that brought on the discomfort in the first place. My mind was no longer getting that "high" it used to, but it was feeling the negative aspects of that "high" at a heightened conscious level.
It came to a head, my flip-flop from unconscious/conscious behavior after the last feud with Phil2. Couldn't stand the way I felt and refuse to do it anymore, not that we won't disagree again, but it got ridiculous! The "high" as you say, was gone and all that was left was pain, from unconsciousness.

Yes, it is helpful to simply look at our thoughts without judgment, but we can be active as well as passive. We can ask to see a person/place/ situation in a different way for example.
Thanks for all the tips you listed, very hard to meditate in my house, so haven't been able to do this much. I had been able to do self inquiry many times, over the course of time, enough to realize and experience my true nature, back when my house was a bit quieter. When I'm home I'm able to still read through the noise, so today, I started reading (online) The Gita for beginners. To see if I can get some more insights from a different avenue and to explore what RT said about Karma Yoga.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by runstrails » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:53 am

Hi Dij,
Here is some helpful advice from Ted Schmidt http://www.nevernotpresent.com/ on the subject. Ignore the sanskrit words--they are not critical to what he is describing. He's a student of James Schwartz and you can email him or James too with your specific situation for advise. Gary Weber gave some good advice to Jack (Enter Zen) so you could consider contacting him too.
Ted: Yeah, this will continue for awhile. The vasanas don’t give a shit that you know the self. They — meaning the one’s that extrovert the mind and pull it away from the self — are spoiled little brats. They want what they are used to getting. The only way to effectively manage them is through observation, the application of jnana yoga, and the practice of karma yoga. If you try to repress them, you won’t succeed in undermining their power. They will simply wait for the next available opportunity to strike. For this reason, you want to observe and acknowledge their appearance within you, but refrain from acting at their behest.
Ted: The foundational practice is, as mentioned, karma yoga. BEFORE engaging in any action, consecrate that action to Isvara, or the dharma field, and then accept whatever results come as prasad, a gift from God. Constantly embodying in this way your understanding that you are not in charge of the results of your actions will serve over time to neutralize your belief that you can control circumstances and acquire or accomplish everything that you want. Knowing it is not up to you, you will gradually cease to stress over results that are out of your control. Moreover, when you understand that the entire dharma field is a vast mechanism that is able to absorb any actions offered to it and reconfigure itself in such a way as to reestablish or simply maintain the harmony, balance, and wellbeing of the total — and thus your own wellbeing, since you are part of the total — then you are able to let go of your binding or compelling likes and dislikes and appreciate the fact that whatever happens is for the best, despite surface appearances or to what degree it conforms with your personal desire.

Additionally, in the face of compelling desires, initially apply jnana yoga, or self-knowledge. Immediately contemplate the defects in object-oriented happiness — its temporality and the stress of acquiring and maintaining the object, and the inevitable disappointment or downright sadness that accompanies its loss. It is also a beneficial to practice pratipaksha-bhavana, or to apply the opposite thought. After having assessed the relative merit of object-oriented happiness, supplant the thought “I want such and such” with the thought “I am already whole and complete.” There is nothing you lack as the self. You are both whole and the whole. While the appearances — that is, objects and the desire for them — are you in the sense that they depend on you for their existence, you are self-dependent and self-luminous and thus are ever free of all appearances.

Of vital importance with regard to your particular issue is the practice of triguna vibhava yoga, or the management of the three energies that influence all experience. The practice of triguna vibhava yoga involves both observation and corrective behavior. This will still give whatever remnant of the doer remains something with which to occupy itself while it winds down in the same way that the blades of a fan slowly decelerate and eventually come to a complete stop after the electricity feeding the fan has been turned off. In this regard, you should closely monitor your lifestyle. Take a look at what you eat, how much you sleep, what hours you keep, your sex life, how you handle money, what kinds of people do you interact with, what kinds of relationships do you have, what you do for exercise, etc. Check to see how each of your choices in these areas affect your state of mind. Those that agitate you are rajasic, those that make you dull are tamasic, those that instill you with clarity and peace are sattvic. Since a sattvic mind is the gateway to the assimilation of self-knowledge, the idea behind triguna vibhava yoga is to manage the relative portions of rajas and tamas (both of which you need to a limited degree — rajas so you have the energy to take care of your responsibilities and tamas so that you can sleep) in order to cultivate a predominately sattvic mind. Simply observe the “post-digestive” effect of the various aspects of life mentioned above. In other words, look past the immediate sense of gratification and see how those behaviors, indulgences, interactions, reactions, etc., affect your sense of inner tranquility. And then, of course, weigh this symptom in terms of your goal. If you really want liberation, peace, and happiness, you will eventually find yourself more concerned with remaining established in self-knowledge than running after time-sensitive objects. There is no “one size fits all” answer to this issue. You must keep constant vigil over your state of mind and the perspective from which you are viewing experience. Remind yourself over and over and over again, “I am whole and complete, limitless, actionless awareness.” Whenever you find yourself engaged in the chase, simply stop for a moment, breathe, and remind yourself of your true identity, and see that it will far “outlive” any object your apparent efforts might obtain. While all objects depend upon you, you are ever free as pure awareness.

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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by dijmart » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:55 am

runstrails wrote:Hi Dij,
Here is some helpful advice from Ted Schmitd on the subject. Ignore the sanskrit words--they are not critical to what he is describing. He's a student of James Schwartz and you can email him or James too with your specific situation for advise. Gary Weber gave some good advice to Jack (Enter Zen) so you could consider contacting him too.
As Jen would say, Yum-yum!.. thanks so much!

Love this-
Yeah, this will continue for awhile. The vasanas don’t give a shit that you know the self.
:lol:
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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Re: Assimilation after Self-realization

Post by Phil2 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:10 am

beginnersmind wrote:In other words, this unconscious blame that I was projecting "out there" became conscious and I saw clearly that it was within myself and not in the world itself. This in itself caused conflict, because the world could no longer be my scape goat. I had to accept responsibility and the realization of what I had unconsciously been doing caused me even more discomfort.
Yes, there is a kind of 'comfort' to remain a 'victim' of the so-called 'outside world' ... a victim does not have to take any responsibility in what happens in his own life ... a prison offers kind of comfort too ... this is probably why there are so many 'victims' and 'prisoners' of life ... they don't really want freedom ... they prefer to remain 'dependant' ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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