No point of view whatsoever!

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runstrails
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No point of view whatsoever!

Post by runstrails » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:57 pm

I just loved this quote from James Schwartz that I read in one of the satsangs on his website:
James Schwartz writes: In fact at a certain point in one’s spiritual journey...sooner rather than later is preferable...it is absolutely necessary to take the Self’s point of view to be one’s own if one really wants to be free from limited and limiting views about oneself and the world.
Once the absolute point of view destroys the limited point of view there is no need for the absolute point of view either because ‘absolute’ is only absolute with reference to what is relative. At this 'final' stage...which is neither 'final' or a 'stage'...one is just left as one is...without any point of view whatsoever. Even Vedanta, as beautiful and liberating as it is, disappears when self ignorance disappears.
Thought some of you could relate to this. No point of view ---just dealing (as best possible) with whatever appears. Chop wood, fetch water happily :D.

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by rachMiel » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:11 am

Very nice.

All of us storytellers -- and story believers -- could learn from this. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:13 am

gawd love you your honesty key master.

Of course Schwartz could have said ''' in my humble opinion"
But that's not his 'style'.
trails, I would have added - chop wood, carry water, have awareness of your point of view being a point from which you are viewing, and others having their point from which they are viewing, happily. :D

All within awareness capacity and willingness in this moment as it appears to be.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by Onceler » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:12 pm

I actually do chop wood and carry water....to my garden.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Webwanderer
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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:48 pm

My sense is that what Schwartz is saying is that it's all about context...... or not. :?

WW

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by runstrails » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Onceler said: I actually do chop wood and carry water....to my garden.
Love it! :D

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by the key master » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:57 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:gawd love you your honesty key master.

Of course Schwartz could have said ''' in my humble opinion"
But that's not his 'style'.
trails, I would have added - chop wood, carry water, have awareness of your point of view being a point from which you are viewing, and others having their point from which they are viewing, happily. :D

All within awareness capacity and willingness in this moment as it appears to be.
My bad with the poor choice of words. Yea, um, no, it's just, Schwartz is a deluded cat. Wait,

WW said,
My sense is that what Schwartz is saying is that it's all about context...... or not. :?
This is what he axooly said,
Once the absolute point of view destroys the limited point of view there is no need for the absolute point of view either because ‘absolute’ is only absolute with reference to what is relative. At this 'final' stage...which is neither 'final' or a 'stage'...one is just left as one is...without any point of view whatsoever. Even Vedanta, as beautiful and liberating as it is, disappears when self ignorance disappears.
One is just left as one is. How was one not? Separate peeps aren't separate oneness blobs. Schwartz is brainwashing people into spiritual disassociation. At his 'final stage', a well renowned writer/speaker/teacher is delusional. Fuck Schwartz. If dreams grow or degrade at a rate of square root of two being left with no point of view whatsoever is a delusional fantasy. If that's what you're looking for you'd be better served jumping in front of a bus.

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by dijmart » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:58 pm

James Schwartz writes: In fact at a certain point in one’s spiritual journey...sooner rather than later is preferable...it is absolutely necessary to take the Self’s point of view to be one’s own if one really wants to be free from limited and limiting views about oneself and the world.
Once the absolute point of view destroys the limited point of view there is no need for the absolute point of view either because ‘absolute’ is only absolute with reference to what is relative. At this 'final' stage...which is neither 'final' or a 'stage'...one is just left as one is...without any point of view whatsoever. Even Vedanta, as beautiful and liberating as it is, disappears when self ignorance disappears.
This is how I took what he said, mind you I don't know of him or anything about him, but this quote. Anyways, It seems as though he's saying to transcend/make a shift in perspective, by whatever means, that you are not only this little "me" person with all it's problems and suffering. Once you shift your perspective to the absolute view and realize you "are" the ultimate and all is one and you are not just some little "me" who lives, dies and suffers. Then, once all this is seen, there's no need to live in transcendence land any longer, denying your relative existence, but can then embrace your human being-ness, the relative world and the absolute as "one". Probably along the lines of the saying, "mountains become mountains again".

At least this is how I took it.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by the key master » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:24 am

dijmart wrote:
James Schwartz writes: In fact at a certain point in one’s spiritual journey...sooner rather than later is preferable...it is absolutely necessary to take the Self’s point of view to be one’s own if one really wants to be free from limited and limiting views about oneself and the world.
Once the absolute point of view destroys the limited point of view there is no need for the absolute point of view either because ‘absolute’ is only absolute with reference to what is relative. At this 'final' stage...which is neither 'final' or a 'stage'...one is just left as one is...without any point of view whatsoever. Even Vedanta, as beautiful and liberating as it is, disappears when self ignorance disappears.
This is how I took what he said, mind you I don't know of him or anything about him, but this quote. Anyways, It seems as though he's saying to transcend/make a shift in perspective, by whatever means, that you are not only this little "me" person with all it's problems and suffering. Once you shift your perspective to the absolute view and realize you "are" the ultimate and all is one and you are not just some little "me" who lives, dies and suffers. Then, once all this is seen, there's no need to live in transcendence land any longer, denying your relative existence, but can then embrace your human being-ness, the relative world and the absolute as "one". Probably along the lines of the saying, "mountains become mountains again".

At least this is how I took it.
He's actually saying the opposite. He's programming the individual mind into transcendence land and then embedding a dynamic to ensure that you don't get out. Unconsciously the mind would remain stuck there, chasing silence, disallowing conscious thought rather than transcending energy, building a reservoir of unconscious muck on the inside, surrounding it with a Vedanta belief structure on the out and then pretending those beliefs have been transcended. Maybe I'm just not in a forgiving mood today, but Schwartz is a fraud, a false prophet, a phony boloney poo head.

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:38 pm

I'm so glad you're here KM - I enjoyed those posts.

I didn't feel the Schwartz quote gels too well with my own current exploration of the I AM (Spirit) and all it's multifaceted I AMness (senses, thoughts and feelings) that comprises the totality of my experience. I see each element that comprises the totality of my Being as a point of view. Every sense, thought and feeling that I have is a point of view that is held within and infused by the formless Spirit essence - the dreamer/experiencer of every aspect, each and all - which is itself just a different point of view.

Without any points of view how would there be any existence?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding his quote. I'd love for people to offer their opinions on what I've written here.

Love

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by runstrails » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:39 pm

Hi Folks,
I'm glad this little quote is getting discussion (highlighting the paradoxes of non-duality :wink:). However, in fairness to James Schwartz---I took it out of a long Satsang answer and I should probably re-post that entire satsang so nothing is taken out of context. However, it will be hard work for me to find that exact satsang since there are so many on his website and I don't have the time to go through them. So my apologies for not posting the whole thing.

Key or anyone---if you have issues with Schwartz about his qualifications, knowledge etc, don't hesitate to email him. His website is shiningworld.com. He's pretty good about replying---I know he wrote back to rachmiel personally. Also, he does not shirk from negative views of his writing either. Welcomes them in fact. For those who may not be familiar, he is a teacher of classic Vedanata and has interpretation of the Gita, Upanishads, Vivekachudamani and other classical advaita texts on his website. He sticks pretty close to the traditional interpretations of advaita texts.

The quote makes good sense to me. Rachmiel's and Dij's interpretations are close to mine. Beyond 'little me' and 'awareness' there is another perspective and it's sort of no perspective at all. You just deal with what appears and realize you don't know very much about anything afterall!

Cheers all!

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by goran » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:47 pm

The inquiry ultimately leads to a point where objectivity as such is seen through; and thus invalidates any "point of view," as a potential depiction of reality.
http://www.uncoveringlife.com – Enlightenment Starts Here

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by the key master » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:54 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:I'm so glad you're here KM - I enjoyed those posts.

I didn't feel the Schwartz quote gels too well with my own current exploration of the I AM (Spirit) and all it's multifaceted I AMness (senses, thoughts and feelings) that comprises the totality of my experience. I see each element that comprises the totality of my Being as a point of view. Every sense, thought and feeling that I have is a point of view that is held within and infused by the formless Spirit essence - the dreamer/experiencer of every aspect, each and all - which is itself just a different point of view.

Without any points of view how would there be any existence?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding his quote. I'd love for people to offer their opinions on what I've written here.

Love
Yea I guess the broader point I'm making is that the spiritual community and the enlightenment movement comes from a very delusional place. I don't like where it's going, I don't have reverence for where it started, and I see most spiritual teachers as nothing more than hand puppets for Maya, the final guardians of the delusion palace.
Last edited by the key master on Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by the key master » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:03 pm

runstrails wrote:Hi Folks,
I'm glad this little quote is getting discussion (highlighting the paradoxes of non-duality :wink:). However, in fairness to James Schwartz---I took it out of a long Satsang answer and I should probably re-post that entire satsang so nothing is taken out of context. However, it will be hard work for me to find that exact satsang since there are so many on his website and I don't have the time to go through them. So my apologies for not posting the whole thing.

Key or anyone---if you have issues with Schwartz about his qualifications, knowledge etc, don't hesitate to email him. His website is shiningworld.com. He's pretty good about replying---I know he wrote back to rachmiel personally. Also, he does not shirk from negative views of his writing either. Welcomes them in fact. For those who may not be familiar, he is a teacher of classic Vedanata and has interpretation of the Gita, Upanishads, Vivekachudamani and other classical advaita texts on his website. He sticks pretty close to the traditional interpretations of advaita texts.

The quote makes good sense to me. Rachmiel's and Dij's interpretations are close to mine. Beyond 'little me' and 'awareness' there is another perspective and it's sort of no perspective at all. You just deal with what appears and realize you don't know very much about anything afterall!

Cheers all!
Hey trails! I didn't mean to blow up your thread (ok maybe I did that's just how I say sorry). I really don't care what Schwartz's qualifications are because in this game that's what's irrelevant, as opposed to a logical sequence taking one to a pointless point of view, which, um, wasn't very logical at all. We call that illogical, and it's a disqualification, regardless of how many times he's read the Gita. Who you studied under, what scripture you studied, more often than not indicate what your delusional structure looks like than anything else. Look at this forum for God sake and tell me it isn't true.

You say the quote makes good sense to you. I see his logic as a road map to a detour. It just so happens he built his house at the end of that detour and started selling lemonade. Doesn't impress me. Only way out is to burn it down, and what are the odds he's gonna do that? About zero. Another cowardly teacher, a guardian of the nightmare and degradation, a lemonade salesman.
**barfs**

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Re: No point of view whatsoever!

Post by the key master » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:06 pm

goran wrote:The inquiry ultimately leads to a point where objectivity as such is seen through; and thus invalidates any "point of view," as a potential depiction of reality.
Yea you actually say it much better than Schwartz, because unlike him, you didn't premise that statement on logic that doesn't back it up. There is no reality in any depiction of reality.

Seeing through objectivity isn't meant to prevent peeps from objectively looking at how full of shit teachers are. Yet, this is often what happens.

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