I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

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karmarider
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by karmarider » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:15 pm

Onceler said: I just find it a little dull, to be honest. The endless NDE accounts, it kind of reminds me of the epiphanies of recovery literature writ large. By contrast, this life is interesting, absorbing, poignant, dazzling, challenging, multifaceted, sweet. It deepens with age and provides endless moments of joy and sorrow, pain and discovery. If I listen and watch closely I can usually detect the subtle drifts in energy and influence, like reading a river from a kayak, and this, and my heart, are guidance enough. I just keep getting distracted from the Grand Mystery by the exquisite ordinariness of this humble life.

Any one else feel this way?
Yes.

I think your account is reflective of John Sherman's thinking, which I both agree with and diverge from.

John Sherman's technique is effective and at least for me, a critical step. In my experience, the main instruments of awakening are self-observation and self-honesty. John Sherman's technique is a specific kind of self-observation.

Sherman likes to say that this is all that is needed (Everyone likes to say their thing is the only thing). I agree that the dissolution of the basic fear of life is pretty big. For me, it turned my awakening from frantic-urgent to joyful-creative. And so I agree that it's pretty good--it brings about the abiding experience of curiosity, inquisitiveness, the settling of the mind, the seeing of the larger patterns of life, oneness with the human experience. And it seems to be on-going; even after several years, there are still times that I am surprised by something which pops up in the mind which can be seen and dissolved.

And so I agree with Sherman and you that this is pretty good. But giving some consderation to what Sherman really says, that once you've done the looking, you live your life as a human being, I say that living my life as human being includes going further. This is where I both agree and diverge from Sherman. This is pretty good and I am enjoying it, and I am now free to pursue any endeavor I want, and I choose to go further. There is further to go.

There is more to explore. I'm not given to explore NDE or law of attraction or stuff like that. (I tried and couldn't get interested). I am interested generally in the exploration of consciousness. Is physical reality physical? (It isn't). What is the nature of consciousness and how far does it go and how does the realization of the nature of consciousness affect my human beingness? These are not questions of spirituality. These are questions of actual, real life. For me.

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Onceler » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:43 pm

karmarider wrote:
Onceler said: I just find it a little dull, to be honest. The endless NDE accounts, it kind of reminds me of the epiphanies of recovery literature writ large. By contrast, this life is interesting, absorbing, poignant, dazzling, challenging, multifaceted, sweet. It deepens with age and provides endless moments of joy and sorrow, pain and discovery. If I listen and watch closely I can usually detect the subtle drifts in energy and influence, like reading a river from a kayak, and this, and my heart, are guidance enough. I just keep getting distracted from the Grand Mystery by the exquisite ordinariness of this humble life.

Any one else feel this way?
Yes.

I think your account is reflective of John Sherman's thinking, which I both agree with and diverge from.

John Sherman's technique is effective and at least for me, a critical step. In my experience, the main instruments of awakening are self-observation and self-honesty. John Sherman's technique is a specific kind of self-observation.

Sherman likes to say that this is all that is needed (Everyone likes to say their thing is the only thing). I agree that the dissolution of the basic fear of life is pretty big. For me, it turned my awakening from frantic-urgent to joyful-creative. And so I agree that it's pretty good--it brings about the abiding experience of curiosity, inquisitiveness, the settling of the mind, the seeing of the larger patterns of life, oneness with the human experience. And it seems to be on-going; even after several years, there are still times that I am surprised by something which pops up in the mind which can be seen and dissolved.

And so I agree with Sherman and you that this is pretty good. But giving some consderation to what Sherman really says, that once you've done the looking, you live your life as a human being, I say that living my life as human being includes going further. This is where I both agree and diverge from Sherman. This is pretty good and I am enjoying it, and I am now free to pursue any endeavor I want, and I choose to go further. There is further to go.

There is more to explore. I'm not given to explore NDE or law of attraction or stuff like that. (I tried and couldn't get interested). I am interested generally in the exploration of consciousness. Is physical reality physical? (It isn't). What is the nature of consciousness and how far does it go and how does the realization of the nature of consciousness affect my human beingness? These are not questions of spirituality. These are questions of actual, real life. For me.
Totally agree Karmarider. You're right about the strong influence Sherman , and I really should cite him in those posts, but it's also my true experience and in a way has always been my true experience no matter what other crazy sh*# was going down. Although I think Sherman would also agree with you, that you are free to explore whatever you want to once the fear is gone.....he's said it quite often. (His caution is not to get caught up in spirituality during the recovery process). I find myself returning to my first spiritual crush, Zen. Contemplating the utter impregnability of reality as it is, as a gateway to something else.....I guess your kinda saying this as well.
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by runstrails » Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:08 pm

Kr wrote:
There is more to explore. I'm not given to explore NDE or law of attraction or stuff like that. (I tried and couldn't get interested). I am interested generally in the exploration of consciousness. Is physical reality physical? (It isn't). What is the nature of consciousness and how far does it go and how does the realization of the nature of consciousness affect my human beingness? These are not questions of spirituality. These are questions of actual, real life. For me.
Great post, Karmarider. It resonates with me. I also don't think too much either way about NDEs or LOA and like you I'm most interested in the nature of consciousness. Interestingly for me, I had to do a lot of basic exploration about the nature of consciousness in order to awaken because my doubts were so intense. But I suppose that is the way of the path of knowledge (jnana yoga).

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by KathleenBrugger » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:33 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:In the end yes we are all 'one', but we're interpreting different experiences and characteristics of 'what is' ........
we interpret the experience of rain differently to that of wind, we interpret the energies of our mother as different to our father, hence when information is flowing in a 'rain' energy, rather than 'wind' energy, we label the difference as a separation. When we hear & interpret the movement of energy in our father's voice, it is energetically perceived as different to our mother's voice.

Even in the nde these energies or resonances were readably 'different'. Hence one might interpret intense love/light energy as Jesus, or a particular 'guide' or recognisable 'person' by sensory 'recognition', even more so when sharing a particular person's memories or insights. It's a strange thing that I still 'know' that my friend and her murderer were 'one', but that their interpretations of their shared experiences were 'separate' / different. By these 'recognisable' or 'interpreted' energies we delineate rather than attribute to the personal 'me' or the impersonal 'all'.

The expression range of energy in people & things is different in individual form, so too is it able to distinguish -'impersonating' if you like, a personal perspective in the same energy 'range' out of form. Hence the energy 'limitations' or 'declaration' that was once animating a 'life', is perceivably, recognisably still kind of declaring 'who' they are.

So we limit or open ourselves up to the wisdoms of all and in separation (as a declaration of who we are) don't want to take the credit for it - which is kind of honest at the same time as being not really honest - it's all just interpreting and sharing perceptions according to our 'individual awareness, capacity & willingness.

Either that or I am one incredibly smart cookie able to 'know' information inside my brain from outside of time and space physical limitations :lol: But if that was true, then so too would all of us 'know' this and therefore not be perceiving any separations at all, and we're all just Phil sitting here quietly and typing to ourself. (guess that's possible too 8) ... which one is 'insane' Kathleen? :wink: )
:lol: You know I think everyone is insane, Jen. Insane in that we confuse our perceptions with reality. For example, those people you mention who interpret "intense love/light energy as Jesus" are deluded about what they're really experiencing. What they experienced was an intense love, but an assumption programmed in their minds associated intense love with Jesus, so when the experience (intense love) was filtered through the assumption (intense love=Jesus) they are convinced that what they experienced was Jesus. It's really real for them, but it doesn't exist in fact, just in their minds.

What is interesting to me about my book title, "We are All Innocent by Reason of Insanity" is that people seem to focus on the insane part. The pertinent focus to me is innocence. This philosophy is all about how to have compassion for ourselves and others. Everyone is confused to at least some degree--our knowledge is always limited, and we have unconscious assumptions that skew our perceptions (google "cognitive bias" if you want to learn about the vast number of thinking errors we are all prone to). We then speak and act out of our confusion. When you recognize this, you start to see that people "know not what they do" (to quote jesus). When someone does or says mean or hurtful things that is because their thinking is twisted up. The only response once you see this is compassion.

If you look at the thread that was just closed here on the forum, you can have compassion for those involved because they were all balled up inside their confused minds.
We are ALL Innocent by Reason of Insanity
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by alex » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:38 pm

Interesting thread. I got up to page 7. I'm quite enjoying where I'm at, I noticed that with every post I read my mind remained equanimous. I don't know the truth of anyone's point of view, my mind remained un-knowing and open and there was not a single judgement. Peace!
How very simple.

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Sighclone » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:08 pm

This is my favorite thread in the six years that I have been member here. And, except for kiki and a couple of others, all my favorite members have contributed. Like is drawn to like. Thank you Jack. Thank you for joining and for your utterly candid "play-by-play" on your passage through what Gary Zukav refers to as "the Earth School." I feel honored that our little blue zone has been your home for the last year or so. We all hope you continue to touch our base again and again...because we expect your travels (horizontal rather than vertical, if you will) will offer a dimensional perspective not available, today, to all of us in our daily lives.
I feel the demonisation of the ego is one of the cornerstones of negativity in the spiritual community. There is so much confusion over it. Confusion and fear. But what is it? People seem to say ego is the human self that is proud and excessive, self-serving and self-promoting. I say those things aren't a problem. That they are seen as a problem is the problem!!! Ha! But I don't see any of that as a problem - just an amusing confusion. That said, I do choose to address it for my own enjoyment! So I point the attention to what the ego is. What is it? Let's re-write what it is. And turn this negativity around!

I say, ego is self. My ego is my sense of self. It is the part of me that says 'I Am' - that is aware of itself as itself. When we go inward very deep, this sense of self remains. It remains at the deepest depths I have gone. Indeed, as far as I am aware, it IS Me! At the Deepest! But not in the way these demonisers put it. The deeper I go the purer the Ego is - just "I Am" in it's naked, gloriousness! At the moment, my definition of the Ego is the same as my definition of Awareness or Consciousness or the Present or God. It is our fundamental Essence. Our Essential Element. Embracing and Loving the Sense of Self is to Embrace and Love You! I see it as fundamental to the development of the individual's Perspective - the evolution of the individual Perspective - to the movement into a broader and more aware Perspective.

To fear and reject your own Essence is to fear and reject yourself which is to spiral inward into ignorance and narrow-mindedness and cold heartedness. This isn't something I see as 'wrong'. Doing this adds to All That Is just as the opposite does. In terms of individual experience though, my own Exploration has shown me that embracing and open heartedness is more enjoyable than repulsion and closed heartedness. It's a personal choice and the way I suggest isn't necessarily the best way for an individual to get there. But for many it will be deeply illuminating. Those who don't see it that way will explore another way. Ultimately, it's all an individual choice and anything I say is just to catalyse a reaction that is already taking place.
To defend Eckhart for a moment, please recall that the ego he defines is an exclusive entity...a defensive, self-defined (by the mind) and self-protective unconscious tomb. It is not "the same as my definition of Awareness." But it is where most people reside. It is certainly where I was a few years ago. And needed to transcend. And it is not easy to utterly discard, or to redefine. Most people are stuck there. Jack's reliance and trust in his heart as a guide is fine, for him, because anyone can read any of his posts and recognize that "Jack's heart" is a very clear and pure and courageous energy, at once forgiving, apologetic, and fun-loving. That personal heart is not so pure for many people.

The purpose of nondual spiritual growth is the discovery/realization of ultimate truth. It usually starts with an "inner hike" (to borrow the cybername of an old member.) After a certain depth/expanse of growth (I hate to use the word 'progress' because that suggests a formal path) has taken place, many more possibilities of experience emerge, we are told, especially by Patanjali and Yogananda, among many other teachers, even modern ones like Igor Kufayev. Falling mainly into two groups, those experiences include the siddhis (please read "Supernormal" by Dean Radin, 2013, for the latest scientific 'proof' of these powers, deeply annotated), and the astral planes (including subtle bodies, spirit guides, past life regressions, light beings, alien species, soul travel, etc.) Surely we have all read books discussing these regions. (The Michael Newton series on "Life Between Lives," Brian Weiss books on reincarnation, Nick Bunick's "The Messengers" ... he references Jeshua there, as he was Saul of Tarsus in a past life, John Mack's "Abduction," Tom Campbell's "My Big Toe," and Albert Taylor's "Soul Traveler" series jump to mind.) None of these are nonduality books, really. Jack has boldly entered the astral planes and reported "back" to us! What a treat!

To be frank, one of the reasons I have been less active here in the last year is that the personal question of "what is next?" has been swirling around for me. There have been some eruptions of past fixations, some of them fairly deep, yes, but most of those have dissolved. So Jack's emergence, slow here at first, and now in rocket mode has been a catalyst for me (...and it has added these two necessary dimensions to a sci-fi novel I have been writing for 20 years...I wondered why it had stalled!!??!! -- Thanks, Jack !!)

Jack is being quite clear when he says "it's all me." Recall that for him, "me" is a pretty big place ... it includes the essence of "you," for example. And that is one of the keynotes of Unity Consciousness. Saying "we are all one" is New-Agey and hip. Experiencing it and living there is another thing...walking that talk is much more challenging. But after the expansion of self to Self, Jack is in fearless cruise mode -- bravo again!

And thanks again to the founders and early participants here, and the current special contributions by everyone!

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:54 pm

I'm travelling in Sweden at the moment and have limited internet so will keep this brief with a fuller message to follow soon. I just wanted to say I'm really touched by your message Andy. Things have been escalating extremely fast here and I have wondered how much longer I will stay here. The immediate answer is as long as it remains productive! Which it most certainly has been and I suspect will continue to be for some time!

I'll write again soon,

Love!!!

Jack

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by smiileyjen101 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:52 pm

Sighclone said: To defend Eckhart for a moment, please recall that the ego he defines is an exclusive entity...a defensive, self-defined (by the mind) and self-protective unconscious tomb. It is not "the same as my definition of Awareness." But it is where most people reside. It is certainly where I was a few years ago. And needed to transcend. And it is not easy to utterly discard, or to redefine. Most people are stuck there. Jack's reliance and trust in his heart as a guide is fine, for him, because anyone can read any of his posts and recognize that "Jack's heart" is a very clear and pure and courageous energy, at once forgiving, apologetic, and fun-loving. That personal heart is not so pure for many people.
:lol: I'm not sure that ET needs 'defending' Andy.
The self defence mechanism is (for me) as Jack says, a beloved part of what is occurring individually within this 'frame'. For me it is just the mechanism of interpreting and translating stimuli, no differently to our immune system, that also at times over-reacts, and/or interprets one thing as another.

ET does help folks to understand from where a particular reaction comes from and makes an interpretation feel real, and as if its the only possible interpretation, and get them to question from where it all came - in the mind. Where I see a lot of folks who come upon this understanding create more suffering for them self, and others by projection, is when they do the very same thing to the 'ego' that they were previously doing unconsciously with the ego - making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of it >>> suffering.

Jack's heart is very clear and pure and courageous, because it doesn't take any courage at all to be all of who you are once you realise there is nothing wrong with any part of you or your experiences, including those that perceive threat to self and react in a moment.

In a way, those who prescribe to kill the ego devalue that which is beautiful and valuable of and from the ego, which is the opposite to loving what is. One cannot love all that is if one is also being vigilant about killing parts of what is, and by result being vigilant and apologetic and reactive when parts of the self defence mechanism arise. It just makes no logical sense.

I see Jack's beauty shining through not because he has no ego, or has killed any ego, but because he has learned to love it, and in doing so is loving all of what is, as it is.

It's out of 'favour' in the strange - makes no logical sense to me - way that some in non-duality treat the ego, like medicine treats an over-reaction of some parts of our immune systems by 'killing' the immune system - with toxic chemical treatment that does not discriminate where and what it kills, like our 'defence' systems nationally and globally that annihilate an 'enemy' not realising - or somehow deluding themselves that it does not have an ongoing impact on the whole.

Where the 'cure' is 'worse' than the disease.

The thing of this that I take heart from ET - if one is making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of a thing, person or situation yes that is ego talking, yes that is if we can (awareness, capacity) and if we will (willingness) look around clearly, we will see the suffering that following that path is creating for self and other/s.

If one turns this reaction on oneself, it's ego trying to kill ego so it will be more accepted by self and others - which is nuts.

If one turns this reaction on another, it's ego turned intense energy just the same.

The acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm route that ET suggests MUST (ee gads I used capitals) include the interpretations and even at times the misinterpretations of the self defence system of the human body and mind (or any other 'system' that contributes to its being). Then reactions can arise and one can - as Jack does be "at once forgiving, apologetic, and fun-loving."
That personal heart is not so pure for many people.
Which can only be found in the spheres of awareness, capacity and/or willingness. Knowing which of these it is 'polluting' or limiting the heart is a key to sanity.

To be frank, one of the reasons I have been less active here in the last year is that the personal question of "what is next?" has been swirling around for me.
I'm a little surprised Andy... there is no 'next', there is only awareness, capacity and willingness now, including any 'polluting' or self preserving voluntary limitations that you put into the spheres of awareness, capacity and willingness. I doubt that there is much pollution in your awareness, or your capacity....
No choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.

I'll restate there is no courage required to let go of that which is not real. Courage is only required to let go of that which is imagined and held tightly as being real. It's never 'courage' in the moment it's just being.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Sighclone » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:00 am

Courage is only required to let go of that which is imagined and held tightly as being real.
And there's the rub. All beliefs not founded on experience are built from faith or imagination or both. I used to write about things I had read about but not experienced. I still quote lots of others, mainly because they have written entire books on topics I've just scratched or experiences I've had in only a brief moment or two. But I have tried to stay with personal experience as a launchpad for my posts.

My early point was just to help us remember what Eckhart said about the ego, which was very different than what Jack said. The shift that ET experienced (and many others now) represented the death of the "false self" or at least the transcendence of it. (Since it was a fabricated fiction, it couldn't die much!!) But the immediate sense of body/mind/personality we know as "Ramana" or "Smiileyjen" or "kiki" or "Andy" remains. And reacts in error sometimes, yes. But before some level of awakening, there is no freedom from the autopilot mechanism and the suffering it inevitably brings. "Jack" today as he speaks of himself is far different than he would have spoken of himself two years ago. So am I, and I imagine this is true for many here.

I think I probably posted about 20 or 30 times in 2013 defending the ego, and avoiding ego-bashing. I did that not because most egos are evolved and inclusive (they're not), and not because they are normal (they are the natural boss until about age 30,) but because attack-mode is itself egoic, and tolerance and understanding are far more powerful strategies to transcend its artificial boundaries. After which transcendence we are left with a "sense of my whole self" that bears almost no resemblance to the limited original form except for the skin-bag package which expresses it. Loving the ego is different from loving the truth about ourselves. Accepting the stumbling, quirky, possibly lovable, imperfect unique person(a) which has a name and an autobiography and bumps around the planet is easier if there is some "part of us" that has experienced something infinitely larger and deeper. Accepting a rainstorm which douses a swift bike ride is another thing altogether... :( :D

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Phil2 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:43 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
In a way, those who prescribe to kill the ego devalue that which is beautiful and valuable of and from the ego, which is the opposite to loving what is. One cannot love all that is if one is also being vigilant about killing parts of what is, and by result being vigilant and apologetic and reactive when parts of the self defence mechanism arise. It just makes no logical sense.
But Jen you make the assumption here that ego is 'what is' ... but ego is 'what is NOT' ... ego does not even exist, it is just a mirage, an illusion created by thought, as Eckhart said "a mind-created sense of self" ...

You cannot even 'kill' ego ... as there is no such thing ... you can just drop an illusion ... and become free from the illusion ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:19 pm

Phil2 wrote:ego is 'what is NOT' ... ego does not even exist, it is just a mirage, an illusion created by thought
This is just one context and only helpful to an extent. There is more. Ego is a 'real' experience. By your words, it may well be an illusion from one perspective, but it is a real experience as a perspective within human life. The emotions, the joys, the fears, the whole range of perceptions and feelings that get created from this thought identification experience are very real experiences. I submit that experience has value and simply discounting ego as only illusion discounts it greater purpose.

WW

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by smiileyjen101 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:35 am

Phil2 said: But Jen you make the assumption here that ego is 'what is' ... but ego is 'what is NOT' ... ego does not even exist, it is just a mirage, an illusion created by thought, as Eckhart said "a mind-created sense of self" ...

You cannot even 'kill' ego ... as there is no such thing ... you can just drop an illusion ... and become free from the illusion ...
I understand that Phil, I was speaking to Sighclone's notion that....
please recall that the ego he(ET) defines is an exclusive entity...a defensive, self-defined (by the mind) and self-protective unconscious tomb.
I see it more as part of the human experience interpreting and translating stimuli as it is experientially perceived. The 'relative' bit that makes you perceive things different to me, and me different to anyone else.

To say there is no such thing as 'ego' / individual perceiving and responding, is for me to say there is no such thing as responding to interpreted and translated stimuli - and by this I mean biological responses, creating emotional and mental and at times, physical reactions to the interpretations of the stimuli.

It's a factor in how we are perceiving what we are perceiving, and we respond according to our awareness and capacity.

Biologically this blood and guts and bones 'vehicle' for experience has individual needs and responses to physical stimuli. For me ET pointed out some 'mistakes' in interpretation & translation leading into unnecessary reactive behaviours and beliefs in response. For me his stuff explaining how mental and emotional 'suffering' surfaces through those interpretations and translations is no different to explaining the likes of MS, lupus, reactive arthritis, type one diabetes and other 'dis-eases' being known as our immune systems creating over-reactions to physical stimuli that makes the body think it is under attack when it either is not, or may have been but is no longer. It's a mis-interpretation of stimuli.

If we take reactive arthritis as an example - within a person infected with salmonella poisoning the immune system goes into fight mode and creates antibodies to 'kill' the salmonella, but sometimes, in some people - (thought to be genetically factored) the body continues to think the 'threat' is still alive and it continues to spew out antibodies, which 'manifest' in other parts of the body. So the 'thing' that was our friend - our immune system - is now attacking and creating unnecessary physical pain - mistakenly.

It's no mistake that I think the 'common' medical response of prescribing toxic chemicals to kill the immune system in an effort to turn the reaction off, is also over-reaction.

In terms of what does this have to do with the ego - the responses when our ego is interpreting 'relative' stimuli correctly --- oh look there's a bus coming at me, best I jump out of the way - that for me is healthy and helpful, as was the antibodies that were 'fighting' off the salmonella poisoning. Where 'ego' our interpretation and translation of that relative stimuli goes into overdrive is where we might start screaming at the bus driver, or beating our selves up for being where we were etc

It's a mis-identification if you like.

But, for me within awareness, capacity and willingness to accept that it happens - sh...... it happens, I don't kill the entire immune system for making a mistake, and neither do I throw out the awareness, or deny that I am (still and always) interpreting & translating stimuli - by past experience or by previous mistakes of interpretation.

I don't think I'm saying, (I certainly didn't intend to communicate) that ego is 'what is' - our interpretation and translation of 'what is' - the 'stimuli' is what is, our translation of it is our perspective of what is. What is is what is - interpreted individually by awareness, capacity and willingness, translated into individual 'knowing' and responded to accordingly.

So I'm talking 'relative' experience here. A person who 'groks' the illusion who then 'relatively' gets upset at themselves for over-reacting to stimuli is ... it's the same 'unnecessary' reaction, for me.

Do I still sometimes translate stimuli in error, absolutely!!

And, I'm okay with that.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Phil2 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:38 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Phil2 wrote:ego is 'what is NOT' ... ego does not even exist, it is just a mirage, an illusion created by thought
This is just one context and only helpful to an extent. There is more. Ego is a 'real' experience. By your words, it may well be an illusion from one perspective, but it is a real experience as a perspective within human life. The emotions, the joys, the fears, the whole range of perceptions and feelings that get created from this thought identification experience are very real experiences. I submit that experience has value and simply discounting ego as only illusion discounts it greater purpose.

WW
Well WW I think some clarification is needed here.

Ego is the 'idea' ie. a concept, a thought, of being a separate entity ... as Eckhart says 'a mind-created sense of self' ... and as such ego is an illusion, just a mis-take, an erroneous idea ...

However this idea of ego can trigger/provoke our emotional states like anger, fear, grief, shame, suffering etc. and those emotions themselves are of course REAL ...

So ego is an illusion that can upset/influence our reality as emotional being or better said the 'quality of our life experience' ... the title of this (bad) movie could be "The Power of Illusion" ...

But ego itself is NOT the experience ... but the conceptual error (mis-take) behind the experience ... the root cause of suffering as Buddhism shows it well ...

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:10 pm

Phil2 wrote:But ego itself is NOT the experience ... but the conceptual error (mis-take) behind the experience ... the root cause of suffering as Buddhism shows it well ...
Identification with a complex thought construct is an experience of perspective. And if it was designed to be this way, can we say absolutely it was a mistake? Maybe the point was/is to get lost in the forest for the adventure of finding our way out. And while it may be the root cause of suffering, that does not necessarily make it wrong, only challenging.

WW

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:51 pm

I agree with WW. There is great benefit in being lost in the forest and finding the way out.

As I see it at the moment, the greatest potential for difficulty offers the greatest potential for growth. The Human Experience is full of such potential difficulty. But such difficulty only leads to suffering when it is resisted. When the natural Ebb and Flow of Experience is attempted to be controlled. Letting the tides of Being oscillate you to greater depths is the easy way to great expanse.

In response to calling the ego an illusion. I would say, everything IS what it is Perceived to be. If you Perceive it as an illusion then it will take on that character for you. That may have benefit for a time, but I honestly feel it is a limited way of Seeing.

To understand that anything that is Experienced IS what the Experience of it is and that everything Experienced in this way is Authentic from the Perspective of the Perceiver is a much more open and expanding way of Being in my Experience.

I enjoy exploring philosophies (I mean philosophy here as a love of knowledge which I see as an experiential voyage into oscillating flows of Being) which encompass Universal Truth to relatively greater extents. Saying something that you are literally experiencing as not being real, not being a valid or wanted experience, is in direct opposition to what you are experiencing, so it doesn't hold much Truth for me. Saying that everything experienced is valid from the perception by which it is perceived is a vastly more encompassing philosophy - indeed, I find this one opens many doors because I am yet to find the absence of Truth within it, instead the Truth is expanding my Perception leading to a Growth and Refinement of my Experience - which is, in my opinion, the primary purpose of my incarnation here, and possibly, my primary purpose in Being - to Experience and to Grow in Experience - which is a forward feeding positive feedback loop which can spiral to infinity, just like a fractal.

Love,

Jack

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