I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
Phil2
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Phil2 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:56 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Phil2 wrote:But ego itself is NOT the experience ... but the conceptual error (mis-take) behind the experience ... the root cause of suffering as Buddhism shows it well ...
Identification with a complex thought construct is an experience of perspective. And if it was designed to be this way, can we say absolutely it was a mistake? Maybe the point was/is to get lost in the forest for the adventure of finding our way out. And while it may be the root cause of suffering, that does not necessarily make it wrong, only challenging.

WW
No, ego is not wrong because it engenders suffering ... it engenders suffering because it is wrong ...

Now once again it is important to dissociate the cause from the effect ... the cause (ego) is unreal, but the effect (ie. our experience of emotional states) is quite real ...

This reminds me a Zen joke I already quoted in this forum, so sorry to repeat for those who know it:
A student says to the Zen Master :

"Master now I understand all your teachings, this world is just an illusion"

... after a moment of silence, the master suddenly strongly pinches the student's nose ... and the student shouts out of pain

"Master, this is awfully painful !"

... and after another silence the master answers quietly

"No, no, this was just an illusion"
:-)

So yes, maybe an illusion, but one that can be painful too ... and this is no illusion ...

Maybe all this is a dream, but why make it a nightmare ?
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6852
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:23 pm

Phil2 wrote:No, ego is not wrong because it engenders suffering ... it engenders suffering because it is wrong ...
Dare I say, that sounds like an ego perspective? I see this as a context issue. Egos can't be wrong in a universe where right and wrong do not exist. It can be wrong however, in a context where right and wrong do exist; and egos tend to create contexts for their own purposes.

.........

Jack, loved your post. I see it much the same.

WW

Phil2
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Phil2 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:30 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Phil2 wrote:No, ego is not wrong because it engenders suffering ... it engenders suffering because it is wrong ...
Dare I say, that sounds like an ego perspective? I see this as a context issue. Egos can't be wrong in a universe where right and wrong do not exist. It can be wrong however, in a context where right and wrong do exist; and egos tend to create contexts for their own purposes.
No WW, I don't say that ego is wrong as opposed to the idea that it could be right ... I say ego is wrong because ego does not exist ... it is unreal, unsubstantial ... just an erroneous idea ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

User avatar
EnterZenFromThere
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:35 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:32 pm

If ego doesn't exist why do you keep going on about it?

It sounds like ego is very real for you Phil. More so than for most :lol:

Love!

Jack

Enlightened2B
Posts: 1933
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Enlightened2B » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:40 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Phil2 wrote:No, ego is not wrong because it engenders suffering ... it engenders suffering because it is wrong ...
Dare I say, that sounds like an ego perspective? I see this as a context issue. Egos can't be wrong in a universe where right and wrong do not exist. It can be wrong however, in a context where right and wrong do exist; and egos tend to create contexts for their own purposes.

.........

Jack, loved your post. I see it much the same.

WW
excellent. and I concur too with WW. Beautiful post Jack.

Phil2
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Phil2 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:47 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:If ego doesn't exist why do you keep going on about it?
Because ego illusion still operates in this world ... isn't this clear enough ?

A mirage of an oasis in the desert does not exist ... however people still run for water ... only when the illusion is seen as an illusion, then we stop running for water ...

However the oasis was never there, illusion seen or not seen, there never has been an oasis. Same for ego. There never has been an ego, yet people still live in this illusion ... with all the problems and conflicts it generates ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

Enlightened2B
Posts: 1933
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Enlightened2B » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:58 pm

Phil2 wrote:
EnterZenFromThere wrote:If ego doesn't exist why do you keep going on about it?
Because ego illusion still operates in this world ... isn't this clear enough ?

A mirage of an oasis in the desert does not exist ... however people still run for water ... only when the illusion is seen as an illusion, then we stop running for water ...

However the oasis was never there, illusion seen or not seen, there never has been an oasis. Same for ego. There never has been an ego, yet people still live in this illusion ... with all the problems and conflicts it generates ...
I would say the only thing that is truly illusory is when we are resisting 'what is'. Even the experience of resistance and fear is perfectly valid in and of itself. It is happening, so therefore, it becomes part of 'what is'.

To claim that the ego is illusory is a bit counterproductive and depends what you mean by ego. Are we not two ego's here having a discussion? Most people define ego as the conditioned mind, yet every single one of us on this board still operates out of conditioning/unique experiences on some level. It's what makes each of us unique. We each have our own set of life experiences that have shaped us to where we are at now. Waking up initially is waking up to the realization that those experiences do not define who we actually are, as in the realization that I am not strictly my thoughts/ego. However, in my opinion, waking up is also learning how to embrace the ego perspective in our experience. If we deny the existence of two unique perspectives here (you and I) in this conversation, then how do you account for this conversation between you and I taking place? To claim it is just 'happening within Awareness' is the easy route and basically a denial of your own unique perspective and in turn, more resistance based on your own limited perspective.....which is once again.....ego. Ironic, huh? The ego is a tool and effective one for our human experience. To claim it as illusory, is exactly what Jack and WW say above.....it is resistance to 'what is'.

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6391
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Sighclone » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:34 pm

Lovely post, Jack. I think we tend to believe that awakening is a goal and end in itself. The trans-dimensional metaphysical cosmic realms Jack references in this thread are not part of Eckhart's books, but they certainly appear elsewhere in Vedic and even Buddhist writings. Maybe our boy Jack has decided to get up off the meditation mat and cruise. For a broader perspective on some of the 'side dishes' and wonders of awakened living, please read Dean Radin's book "Supernormal."

And a brief review of Nanci Danison's "Backwards" might be in order. None of this is a violation of Source/Being, just explorations of additional expressions....

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6852
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:17 pm

Phil2 wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:
Phil2 wrote:No, ego is not wrong because it engenders suffering ... it engenders suffering because it is wrong ...
Dare I say, that sounds like an ego perspective? I see this as a context issue. Egos can't be wrong in a universe where right and wrong do not exist. It can be wrong however, in a context where right and wrong do exist; and egos tend to create contexts for their own purposes.
No WW, I don't say that ego is wrong as opposed to the idea that it could be right ... I say ego is wrong because ego does not exist ... it is unreal, unsubstantial ... just an erroneous idea ...
It's not just an idea. It's an idea of self adopted as a perspective and world view, and it offers real experience as I submit is its designed function. We all like a good movie even though it's just light playing on a screen. But we don't so much see the light playing as we see the story represented. The plot of the story itself may be fictional, but the story, as a story, is real; and the emotions generated through the story, by lights playing on a screen, interpreted by a perspective, are also quite real. Experience is reality.

WW

User avatar
Rob X
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Rob X » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:55 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:...depends what you mean by ego.
Yes, could this be a case of not being clear about how the word ego is being used. The two main usages are as follows:

1. Identification with the body-mind. This is the original meaning of ego in spiritual teachings; ego identification. Seeing ourselves as identified with a particular form or role. If there is identification with ego (that this apparently separate body-mind-personality is running the show), then according to its original meaning, ego is at work. Primary identification with this body-mind-persona is a form of delusion.

2. A sense of self. A sense of self is different from identification with self. Every healthy body-mind organism has some degree of a sense of self. It is often assumed that to be realised is to lose the sense of self. But a sense of self is merely the acknowledgement that certain actions, preferences and characteristics operate from this locus, the body-mind organism. But this clearly does not preclude the recognition that the organism is not ultimately what I am. Everyone has an ego in this sense - including Eckhart, Ramana and the Buddha. Even when 'no self' is realised, a sense of (what Buddhists call) a phenomenal self is still experienced. This phenomenal self (complete with a sense of personality) is, like all other arisings, a play of Source.

Phil2
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Phil2 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:06 pm

Rob X wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:...depends what you mean by ego.
Yes, could this be a case of not being clear about how the word ego is being used. The two main usages are as follows:

1. Identification with the body-mind. This is the original meaning of ego in spiritual teachings; ego identification. Seeing ourselves as identified with a particular form or role. If there is identification with ego (that this apparently separate body-mind-personality is running the show), then according to its original meaning, ego is at work. Primary identification with this body-mind-persona is a form of delusion.
Right Rob, this is what I mean by ego, identification with forms (body-mind) ... and this identity is totally illusional ...

When most people say "I" they refer to their body or to their thoughts or beliefs eg. I am 1.75 m tall, I weigh 80 kgs, I am Christian, Italian, communist etc ... this "I" is illusional, not the body itself (which is real) but the identification with the body, which is merely a thought, an idea ...

This is what is meant by the illusion of ego ...

And of course you are right, everyone has a 'sense of self', but not necessarily limited (or identified) to a specific fragmentary form (which would be ego).
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

Enlightened2B
Posts: 1933
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Enlightened2B » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:32 pm

I'd agree with Rob that there are multiple uses for the term 'ego'. However, I'd even propose that the identification itself with the body/mind that we have in this life is also something of purpose and something not to be invalidated. Otherwise, it would not be part of our experience. If we all came into this life with no veil of our nature/no identification, then life wouldn't be have the intended purpose, would it? The sense of veil (ego perspective) is what creates and keeps the story line going. Waking up is merely part of the experience and perhaps an intended purpose for us. So, I don't understand the sense of calling that part of our experience 'illusory'.

If you notice, no matter what you do in this life, there are always times where our identification comes back to that body/mind. You can never fully get rid of the ego perspective. Therefore, how is it illusory? Illusory implies 'not real'. Yet, if we are all experiencing it, then it must be real on some level. The ego perspective is merely one part of our experience. To shun it, in place of the 'Absolute', is exactly what neo-advaita does in limiting what we actually are. Instead, why not embrace it all?

With that said....

Sense of self is different than sense of unique self. We all have that very same sense of 'I AM' at the core of who we are. That's what we have all awakened to initially (many of us through Eckhart Tolle's teachings). However, what to make of these preferences/unique likes and dislikes? It's all part of conditioning and life experiences. Once again....what makes each of us....unique. If each of us is unique even after awakening, what is it that makes us unique? I'm been leaning in this direction for a while now and also learning from Jack, that life is about embracing it all and not limiting ourselves to merely one part of it (the absolute). If something is here for an intended purpose, then it is here for our experience, and in turn cannot be illusory. That includes the veil/sense of identification with the body. No, we are not our body/minds, but it's the experience itself of waking up from that initially, limited perspective, which is incredibly valid for a higher purpose as opposed to demonizing the ego. If we bypass the ego perspective in place of a greater understanding of life, then we are shunning part of our experience.

The only thing that is actually illusory is what we choose to limit ourselves in experience. When we open up, we can start to see that what we once thought was quite illusory, is actually quite valid in terms of experience. Illusory is subjective to the perspective claiming as such.

User avatar
EnterZenFromThere
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:35 pm

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:08 pm

You know, it's really, really easy.

It's really, really easy to open to the immense Joy of ever expanding Experience that you, as your Human Self, are a Gateway to.

You can sit here debating what the ego is. Whether it's one definition or another.

Or you can just accept your Experience for what it is, enjoy it for what it is, and, through that embracing of it, open yourself to your Self which is the very vastness of Creation itself!

It's so easy for it all to be an utterly Joy! Every Moment Divine!

There so much more interesting and fun stuff out there than this same worn out debate! :lol:

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Onceler » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:35 pm

Hear! Hear! Amen brother, Jack.
Be present, be pleasant.

User avatar
smiileyjen101
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:55 am

hahaha that's so funny!
Rob X wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:
...depends what you mean by ego.

Yes, could this be a case of not being clear about how the word ego is being used. The two main usages are as follows:

1. Identification with the body-mind. This is the original meaning of ego in spiritual teachings; ego identification. Seeing ourselves as identified with a particular form or role. If there is identification with ego (that this apparently separate body-mind-personality is running the show), then according to its original meaning, ego is at work. Primary identification with this body-mind-persona is a form of delusion.

Right Rob, this is what I mean by ego, identification with forms (body-mind) ... and this identity is totally illusional ...
My 'take' on ego is #2
2. A sense of self. A sense of self is different from identification with self. Every healthy body-mind organism has some degree of a sense of self. It is often assumed that to be realised is to lose the sense of self. But a sense of self is merely the acknowledgement that certain actions, preferences and characteristics operate from this locus, the body-mind organism. But this clearly does not preclude the recognition that the organism is not ultimately what I am. Everyone has an ego in this sense - including Eckhart, Ramana and the Buddha. Even when 'no self' is realised, a sense of (what Buddhists call) a phenomenal self is still experienced. This phenomenal self (complete with a sense of personality) is, like all other arisings, a play of Source.

So when I read ET's work, if the 'sense of self' falls into identification with the body-mind, that's our sense of self over-reacting.

So all sounds hunky dory, until I mention that one has to accept / 'allow' for over-reactions when they are misinterpretations of stimuli within the sense of self. Which kind of argues with most prescriptive philosophies, except that it doesn't because most prescriptive philosophies at their bed - prescribe grace awareness within whatever 'is' emerging to be experienced as stimuli to the sense of self.

To deny this, is to have an over-reaction to the stimuli of 'identification with the body-mind' occurring within the sense of self - which if one is okay in general in their sense of self, there is no need to over-react in response.

:lol:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

Post Reply