I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

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ClarityofMoment
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by ClarityofMoment » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:02 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Thanks E2B, can you see 'friends' in the way of the Little Soul & the Sun parable?
Clarity of moment said:What is the true point of your post? Validation?
COM, if you're asking Zen that about the OP, this is a long thread now, he's explained the 'true point' a number of times. From what I've read it's not validation for validation's sense, it's been working through the fears and resistances to authenticity in sharing.
To me, atleast, there's a difference between having an Awakening experience, and having an Awakening experience and living from that understanding.

One could realize the truth, and play the whole "Nothing is real, it's all an illusion", and turn into completely awful human beings. We may not be individuals and everything may be an illusion at the Absolute level, but that is not the case for most of the world, yet.

Yes, in experience, we are all infinite, Consciousness, Awareness, but so what? How is that going to change your life?

I believe, that if one realizes the truth, and doesn't seek to live out the truth, they're not "Enlightened".
Well, we all have beliefs, they're just solidified 'positions' as if our opinion / perspective is static.

What is the 'truth' as you are referring to it? And, if one realizes it why would one be 'seeking' then to live it? Wouldn't it just be a part of our awareness, that then feeds into capacity.... and experienced or exhibited depending on our willingness?
Clarity Of Moment said: I simply mean to be the Light, in every day life, and not just in the spiritual sense.
Can you share how that pans out in 'every day life' for you in experience COM? Examples of it to illustrate what you mean by it?


Are we speaking, from the point of view of the Absolute, or from the point of view relative to the experience of being a human being?
"Pervading all that it reaches,
effortless with gentle equality,
the highest mountain, you are there
the lowest valley, you are there,
where I am, you are there,
where you are, I am there"

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smiileyjen101
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:22 am

:) forgive me... I may misinterpret ---

If you are speaking to this --
Clarity Of Moment said: I simply mean to be the Light, in every day life, and not just in the spiritual sense.

Jen said:
Can you share how that pans out in 'every day life' for you in experience COM? Examples of it to illustrate what you mean by it?
That would be totally up to you - how does being the Light, in every day life pan out for you. If you want to speak of the sense of Absolute, or the relative, totally up to you :)

If you are speaking of Zen's experiences, I guess he'll have to answer that. In my take of it, comparing the Absolute perspective to the relative experience just broadens the perspectives, or the points of viewing.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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EnterZenFromThere
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:52 pm

Hi CoM,

What is the true point of my post? I presume you mean in starting this thread and claiming to be enlightened.

At first I thought that was a straightforward answer - along the lines that Jen said, to explore what saying it would be like.

On further reflection though, the point of this post can't be defined in one clear way. I could say that I did it to explore the validity of that statement, and on some level that would be true. However, I could also say the opposite, that on some level I did it to see if my statement was invalid.

From my perspective, it seems to me that the purpose of the thread changes in every moment and for every person perceiving it. Right now it is as an exploration of your post and whether we can really define individual events, or rather, that we can, but perhaps it isn't in my best interest to do so. If I define the meaning of this thread in any way, I feel like I'm limiting myself to that assumption. If I don't define why events occur, they are free to be things beyond that definition, and so, I am more free too.

So in a way you're right, but any other definition would be valid too. So rather than holding to your own definition, maybe explore whether there needs to be any reason at all, and whether that is more freeing for you.

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EnterZenFromThere
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:05 pm

Di,

I love the personal touch of people having their own face as their picture. It's great to see you! I'm not sure what I was expecting you to look like but you look lovely :)

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dijmart
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by dijmart » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:32 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:Di,

I love the personal touch of people having their own face as their picture. It's great to see you! I'm not sure what I was expecting you to look like but you look lovely :)
Thanks Jack, nice of you to say. :)
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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coriolis
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by coriolis » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:12 pm

I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity
Maybe you are.
If so, congratulations.

It's certainly not impossible but, I would say, it is highly improbable.

One is about as likely to meet an "enlightened" person on a message board as one is to meet the the "girl I want to take home and introduce to Mama" at a bordello.
In both cases doing so is not impossible, of course, but still not very likely.

"Good girls" generally don't frequent bordellos and "enlightened people" normally would have absolutely zero motivation to post about their "enlightenment" on message boards.

I think we're all still seekers or we wouldn't be here.

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Onceler
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Onceler » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:17 pm

I happen to think you're right about enlightened people frequenting the forum. I also think enlightenment is beside the point, or hardly the point.

Just an fyi, Jack recanted his statement on enlightenment deeper in the thread.
Be present, be pleasant.

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EnterZenFromThere
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:42 pm

It's funny all these rules that people have of what an enlightened person could or could not do. It all depends what you perceive enlightenment to be. This isn't an objective truth, but rather our own individual (or group) interpretation. If you say something like "enlightened people do X, Y Z and not A, B, C" what you're really saying is "I believe that enlightened people do X, Y, Z and not A, B, C". It's all just opinions - subjective impression born from experience informing experience informing experience. If I said I were enlightened I would just be conforming to a belief structure I had created for myself - which I would then be limited by. Hunting for enlightenment is like chasing your own shadow (in my opinion).

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by karmarider » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:44 am

Jack, I'm glad you see more clearly than you did 20 pages ago.

But perhaps you can consider the confusion. You saw yourself at the beginning of the thread as the Bridger of Reality, the Angelic Selves: Toth, the Atlantean and God Ruler of Egypt; and Lucius - 1st Lancer of the Company of Michael; and Ezriel - Professor Alchemist of the Academy of Michael; Tobias - Loving Heart of Michael, and the Apex of Archangel Michael - The Pyramid of Heaven's Glory and 7th Dimension and the Mother of Heaven - Birther of Hearts Divine - the Goddess Divine, the center of all these Beings - the Ever Present Infinite Gravity of God-Self.

And you saw those of us who see enlightenment differently, and as Onceler says see it as irrelevant--you saw these folks as the less fortunate who have not experienced Angelic Choirs and they lack the Purity of Heart to Receive the Incredible Light that these Beings Are.

But perhaps in the course of the thread the real lesson is that of the delusion of the spiritual folk, who are perhaps a bit just too eager.

I admire your willingness to open yourself up to a spiritual forum. That takes courage. And I'm glad you see more clearly. And I'll still suggest that you get help.

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by snowheight » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:51 am

EnterZenFromThere wrote:On further reflection though, the point of this post can't be defined in one clear way. I could say that I did it to explore the validity of that statement, and on some level that would be true. However, I could also say the opposite, that on some level I did it to see if my statement was invalid.
Which of us who's written more than a few dozen posts on this forum can honestly say that there is no aspect of our participation here that involves a search for validation of our spiritual experience?

This isn't to say that there's noone here free of this sin, but I sure can't make the claim. :)

Jack, there's an interesting line of self-reflection available just by taking ownership of this if you're interested, one that's related to a particular Zen story, and from reading most of what you wrote on the thread, one that I get the impression you might not have considered yet.

Are you interested? Was one of the primary purposes of this thread to validate your experience by calling it enlightenment and then absorbing and responding to what came back? This might seem like a facile question given what you've written but I'd really rather not make an assumption about your answer. Even if the answer is very obvious from what you've written, the proposed line of self-reflection still applies.

----------

These next two paragraphs are to the forum in general and not specifically directed at you Jack.

As far as this notion that everything is subjective is concerned, just consider the profound self-contradiction in the statement "it's all subjective". As to this last point,I will now channel Ben Stein in Ferris Beuler's day off .. anyone? anyone? ... <blank stare> ... anyone??

Image

As far as the issue of mental illness is concerned, that's a question of functioning in society -- if one can move through the day without giving the impression that they're a danger to themselves or others then they can think whatever crazy shit they want without getting sedated. That's sort of a Zen koan right there baby.

-------------

Jack- please don't take personal offense at that last wisecrack -- I will not only freely admit, but offer this explicit disclaimer as to the fact that it's rooted in my own cultural biases. Reading it, I can see how it might come off as a summary dismissal of the descriptions of your experience, but it's not that at all. I really don't have any reason to not take what you've written about your own experience as face value. This doesn't mean that I interpret the events the way that you do, but really, that's not important to me at all. Is it important to you?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Onceler
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by Onceler » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:09 pm

I agree with you in many respects.....I would add a pre-validation state, however....we are learning to articulate our spiritual/psychological experiences in order to have them validated. And, as in my case many times, the articulation changes the experience or belief, as we write it. Then, if you add the effect of the responses of others into the mix, you have a shaping, pruning, or solidifying effect on your experience. It can be a rock tumbler, or cement. It's all in flux, which is the beauty of the forum and life.
Be present, be pleasant.

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EnterZenFromThere
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:01 pm

Why do you assume that I see things more clearly now?

It sounds like what you mean to say is "I'm glad you see things my way now" (with emphasis on the 'sounds like' as I can only offer my interpretation of what you may or may not mean).

I see every experience I've had as valid and appropraite at the moment it happened. People may align more or less with particular expression that come from my perspective, but your decision to align more or less with my momentary expression doesn't necessarily mean it is any 'clearer'. What does clarity mean to you? Is 'spiritual eagerness' (it might be helpful if you qualify what you mean by that) bad? Does all experience and expression lead to an increase in awareness in the long-run?

You seem to have made a number of assumptions about how I expressed myself in the earlier pages of this post and in my blog. Would you like to discuss those? What do you feel about the way I have expressed myself - about Higher Realms in particular?

I should point out that just because I'm not talking about those types of experiences at the moment doesn't mean they have stopped. They are actually happening more. It is helping me understand the depths of the creative nature of my own subjectivity more deeply.

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EnterZenFromThere
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:29 pm

Wow - calling looking for validation a sin is pretty strong! Exploring whether or not an experience is valid is an amazing way to evolve (in my opinion). Is that seen as a bad thing in the spiritual practice of other people here?

As i mentioned before, I'm not sure there is much value it defining the reasons for this thread starting. I'd rather explore my experience in this moment and see how I respond to the variety of life as it presents itself to me (including via the people of this forum). I'm not sure I understand your motivation in saying this?

You could say that I started this thread to explore the support and criticism of my claim so that I could learn about myself. You could also say that i did it because the thought occurred to me to do it and I felt afraid of the implications of it, so decided to embrace that fear and jump into the experience. You could say I was looking for validation of my claim so that I could begin teaching people my experiences to others. You could say that I did it because I was encouraged by higher entities and trusted in their advice. You could say that I did it because I like the attention. You could say I did it because I don't like the attention on such personal levels. You could say I did it to expose my vulnerabilities so as to release my defences. Any of these would be valid from my point of view, but I could easily come up with more. What does all this defining do? To me, right now, it highlights to limitation of reason. I can define reasons for anything occurring or not occurring. Does that make me right or wrong? As i experience my responses of definitions of 'rightness' and 'wrongness' I find that are largely the same, both feeding into similar energy systems, both giving momentum to the same conditioned loops of repetitive and relatively stagnant being. Threading the needle between 'good' and 'bad' via a less defined way of experiencing feels more valuable to me at this time. Maybe I missed your point.

I think i understand what you mean by the contradiction of everything being subjective e.g. That is a subjective interpretation. It is the same as 'all generalisation are false'. I see it as everything is as it is perceived to be. If you perceive objectivity then it is for you, if you perceive subjectivity then it is for you. Both can easily coexist in my experience, just as perspectives of separation and inseparation can and do. It's a fascinating topic! I'd love to talk about it more if anyone else is interested in this area.

Your functioning in society comment is one I agree with, though again it's the same old, this is your opinion rather than some Truth. I think the context of the expression of what are perceived to be symptoms of mental illness is rather key. If I mention my experiences on a spirituality forum it's going to have a much bigger difference than if walk up to a stranger on the street and tell them. I stand by my point that insanity and sanity are relative terms. I like the quote 'they thought the man who danced was mad, because they could not hear the music'.

I didn't take any offence, no worries. I'm getting a lot out of this thread. I'm seeing where parts of me jump to their defence and allowing them to shout and scream while i experience them in my stillness. Their temper tantrums are quieting down. It's very relaxing.

Is it important to me? Yes and no depending on the specific moment in which that question were asked and precisely what the question relates to in terms of importance. If you mean could i let go of these experiences and never have them again, right now I'd say I can do that - it wouldn't bother me if I was or was not having them. But I am having them, and I enjoy exploring them and seeing them evolve and open in new ways - it's exciting and new and offers much opportunity to deeper insights. I just take every moment as it comes and explore what opportunity for growth there is within it. Sometimes it's difficult and challenging, other times it's easy and effortless - such is the ebb and flow - the peaks and troughs of the waves of creation. (Or so it seems to me right now).

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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by snowheight » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:41 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:Wow - calling looking for validation a sin is pretty strong! Exploring whether or not an experience is valid is an amazing way to evolve (in my opinion). Is that seen as a bad thing in the spiritual practice of other people here?
That was for the most part a dramatic jest :wink:, but every sin is simply a compounding of the mistake of taking the boundary between what you take yourself to be and what that isn't, to be actual. It translates from "miss the mark". "Bad thing" is cultural baggage -- an artifact of institutional control. There's no good nor bad but that thinking makes it so and no shaming-judgment in the characterization -- did you notice that I named myself a sinner?
EnterZenFromThere wrote:I'm not sure I understand your motivation in saying this?
Then I'll repeat my question: Do you have interest in a very simple point of self-reflection related to a famous Zen story based on the idea that you're looking for validation of enlightenment in this dialog? The motivation is to offer you an observation that seems obvious to me, but from your writing I'm guessing isn't that obvious to you at the moment.

The phrase "it's all subjective" seeks a consensus on the notion that consensus is essentially unreachable. Much of what I've thought about out in public over the years would have manifested the guys in the white coats .. :D .. and that has to do with my understanding of the nature of objective physical reality that differs from common societal consensus, and has nothing to do with being a threat to myself or others.

But that there is another mind here typing a sentence that you must read to learn the contents is all the evidence needed to suggest that consensus is a possible phenomenon, and even absent some objective actuality, objectivity survives in the form of that consensus, if in no other. There is another form though, directly related to what Tolle wrote about and advocated.

Perception is of course subjective, yes, no doubt, and there is a depth to understanding that (not in terms of intellect) we can come to embody, and that's what self-inquiry is all about. But the limits of subjectivity are solipsism.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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EnterZenFromThere
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Re: I Am Enlightened - Open Hearted Sincerity

Post by EnterZenFromThere » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:50 pm

I find it difficult to understand your way of expressing. I'm enjoying the way I'm exploring my own development so will continue as I am. That's not a comment on the validity of your way for you, just that I have my own, which I love. Adopting someone else's because they are of the opinion it would be beneficial is certainly something I would entertain, but, in this case it doesn't resonate with me.

It's interesting how we feel we know how to help other people with their experience. As if our way is the right way. That they need to bring their experience into alignment with ours. It's a joke!

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