Thought :: Awareness

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rachMiel
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Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:55 pm

Let's have a nice deep look, as a group, into thought and awareness ... as tools for moving towards intelligence.

I'm using "intelligence" as Krishnamurti used it: seeing "what is" clearly instead of through the filter of ego/self. "Awakening" is just too loaded a term, weighed down with the mythology of Zen masters.

What does the tool of thought bring to bear in the journey to intelligence?

What does awareness bring to bear?

Can full intelligence -- being consciously with/in the non-self-filtered actuality of "what is" -- manifest without awareness? Without thought?

Etcetera.
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runstrails
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by runstrails » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:22 pm

Well, Vedanta is basically insight/knowledge based. Knowledge of your true self (awareness, existence, i am). And knowledge is to some extent based on the intellect ( so thoughts and understanding are involved in this realization.)

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rachMiel
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:34 pm

Yes, the path of knowledge of Advaita is definitely one that relies a great deal on thought.

I studied Advaita Vedanta avidly for a year or so, learned a bunch from it. A lot of how I see the world came out of my Advaita studies.

But learning all these things, neti neti'ing like a man possessed ... didn't much help me become more attentive to the present moment. It was more like I had a thought-based foundation of how to fathom "reality" ... but my moment-to-moment existence was the same old monkey mind mess!

How 'bout for you Ms. runstrails?
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runstrails
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by runstrails » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:44 pm

For me, becoming ' present' just does not work well. It feels like trying to enter an artificial state which doest not last long or does not happen when I am tired, ill or drained (i . e when I need it most). On the other hand, self- knowledge cmae to me after intense inquiry and now that it is firm, this knowledge is always with me. It is not subject to coming and going like a state of mind is. And resting in this knowledge allows a clear eyed view of reality.

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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:04 pm

Are you comfortable going further into this?

Your path is clearly working very nicely for you ... and I wouldn't want to potentially rock the boat unless I knew you were cool with it. (I'm trying to learn from the negative press I've been getting in the forum recently!)

Either way is fine with me. :-)
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runstrails
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by runstrails » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:12 pm

I don't think much can rock my boat now ;)
However, I don't seem to have the attention span anymore for analyzing/deconstructing posts--- so I would say your energies are better spent elsewhere :)

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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:32 pm

runstrails wrote:I don't think much can rock my boat now ;)
However, I don't seem to have the attention span anymore for analyzing/deconstructing posts--- so I would say your energies are better spent elsewhere :)
Sounds good, and I appreciate your honesty. Your boat might not rock, Ms. runstrails, but you do! :-)
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by Rob X » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:15 pm

Hi Rach, I've adapted this from some notes I was making as it seems to fit here.

For me awakening (intelligence if you like) involves two facets; intellectual understanding and a felt sense of awakeness or (what ET calls) feeling-realisation. This felt sense (sometimes known as 'one taste') is the ever-fresh sense of immediacy or flow in which our narrative/constructed persona is diminished. There is just this spontaneous, living, happening of the moment - simply this.

This sense is akin to switch in perception - it's a game changer - a kind of paradigm shift. (In fact there is growing evidence that this felt-sense experience is associated with dominant right hemisphere processing.)

Intellectual understanding, on the other hand, is a conclusion - it's something that we can file away - a formula (story) that may convince us that we have a handle on reality. This is not to disparage intellectual understanding - it's a facet of awakening and something that is hard to avoid. And even on its own it can bring a sense of peace or relief, but for me it is a secondary part of the picture.

We can evoke our intellectual understanding at will but feeling-realisation is something that may not always reveal itself - it can seem evasive at certain times as a result of our being largely locked into an analytical/conceptual state of processing the world (a state that we regard as normal.)

So for me true intelligence/awakeness is the state where we (for the most part) leave our constructs and formulas to one side and simply live from and as this ever-fresh (mysterious) creative event*.



*Whatever this is!

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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:05 am

Rob X wrote:For me awakening (intelligence if you like) involves two facets; intellectual understanding and a felt sense of awakeness or (what ET calls) feeling-realisation. This felt sense (sometimes known as 'one taste') is the ever-fresh sense of immediacy or flow in which our narrative/constructed persona is diminished. There is just this spontaneous, living, happening of the moment - simply this.

This sense is akin to switch in perception - it's a game changer - a kind of paradigm shift. (In fact there is growing evidence that this felt-sense experience is associated with dominant right hemisphere processing.)
Makes sense. And I'd guess that the path of knowledge is largely a left-hemisphere affair.
Intellectual understanding, on the other hand, is a conclusion - it's something that we can file away - a formula (story) that may convince us that we have a handle on reality. This is not to disparage intellectual understanding - it's a facet of awakening and something that is hard to avoid. And even on its own it can bring a sense of peace or relief, but for me it is a secondary part of the picture.
Ditto, and for the same reasons.

Intellectual understanding is as I see it indirect knowing. Perhaps at the moment that the understanding "takes" it is direct. But after it is filed away, it becomes a pattern that is resurrected via memory/thought to fit a moment that it did not arise from. So you end up seeing/experiencing the world through a library of pre-existing patterns, rather than directly.
So for me true intelligence/awakeness is the state where we (for the most part) leave our constructs and formulas to one side and simply live from and as this ever-fresh (mysterious) creative event*.
I couldn't agree more. And I like your inclusion of "for the most part" ... because a state of *pure awareness* (if such a thing exists) is rare indeed.
*Whatever this is!
Oh I can help you there. It's:











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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by karmarider » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:44 am

It seems to me the main instruments of awakening are self-observation and self-honesty.

Self-observation (noticing, experiecing, becoming aware of, putting attention on) is a function a consciousness (awareness, intelligence). As far as I can tell, insight (revelation, recognition, epiphany) comes from consciousness/awareness/intelligence.

Thinking is a specific instrument in conscioiusness. Thinking is symbolic, labeled, conceptual, abstract and removed from the direct experience of sensations. It functions well for conceptualizing and articulating insight. It of course works well for productive activities such as reading and understanding. It doesn't work well for seeing the truth about who you are.

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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:04 am

karmarider wrote:Thinking ... doesn't work well for seeing the truth about who you are.
Perhaps the truth of who you are needs to be experienced in the present moment, rather than learned via thought like a principle or law.
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by dijmart » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:29 am

rachMiel wrote:
karmarider wrote:Thinking ... doesn't work well for seeing the truth about who you are.
Perhaps the truth of who you are needs to be experienced in the present moment, rather than learned via thought like a principle or law.
But, to experience the present moment, often takes thought and learning first to get there or better yet, to "notice" you are there. So, for me, it takes thought, insight and the experience (or non experience :wink: ) to awaken. Unless, you're once of the lucky ones that awaken spontaneously and it's abiding, but that seems rare.
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:26 am

Yes, conventional wisdom says use a thorn to remove a thorn.

But that's a lot of effort, so many sharp thorns!

What about, instead, seeing that the thorn you're trying to remove doesn't actually exist, is but a figment of your imagination? Then you could just bask in your wholeness without having to operate. :-)
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by Onceler » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:15 pm

rachMiel wrote:Yes, conventional wisdom says use a thorn to remove a thorn.

But that's a lot of effort, so many sharp thorns!

What about, instead, seeing that the thorn you're trying to remove doesn't actually exist, is but a figment of your imagination? Then you could just bask in your wholeness without having to operate. :-)
I really like your use of intelligence here and believe it encompasses a gestalt of thought and 'felt sense' as Rob X suggests. The thorn example is great, but I don't think the thorns are equal. We may use emotions to dig out thought, thought to dig into emotions, thought to remove thought. Many of the thorns in my life have proven to be phantom, or of my own design, and I believe I'm healing from many phantom surgeries. Some thorns seem to be real and their embeddedness simply a part of the system until, perhaps, they dissolve on their own.....grief for example.
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by dijmart » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:38 pm

rachMiel wrote:Yes, conventional wisdom says use a thorn to remove a thorn.

But that's a lot of effort, so many sharp thorns!

What about, instead, seeing that the thorn you're trying to remove doesn't actually exist, is but a figment of your imagination? Then you could just bask in your wholeness without having to operate. :-)

However, isn't using the mind to go beyond the mind necessary? After which all thorns can be thrown out? No individual surgeries needed, unless you get a sticky thought or mind pattern?

So, how would one see that the thorn you're trying to remove doesn't exist, unless your using mind to know that?
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