Thought :: Awareness

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rachMiel
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:50 pm

dijmart wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Yes, conventional wisdom says use a thorn to remove a thorn.

But that's a lot of effort, so many sharp thorns!

What about, instead, seeing that the thorn you're trying to remove doesn't actually exist, is but a figment of your imagination? Then you could just bask in your wholeness without having to operate. :-)
However, isn't using the mind to go beyond the mind necessary? After which all thorns can be thrown out? No individual surgeries needed, unless you get a sticky thought or mind pattern?

So, how would one see that the thorn you're trying to remove doesn't exist, unless your using mind to know that?
Yes! That's the question. How ... ?
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dijmart
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by dijmart » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:31 pm

rachMiel wrote:
dijmart wrote: However, isn't using the mind to go beyond the mind necessary? After which all thorns can be thrown out? No individual surgeries needed, unless you get a sticky thought or mind pattern?

So, how would one see that the thorn you're trying to remove doesn't exist, unless your using mind to know that?
Yes! That's the question. How ... ?
Well, if one does inquiry, becomes present/aware and thought drops, then actually insight happens through thought/mind that you are not your thought/mind, which is part of the illusion (thorn). :lol:
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:44 am

Could it be that insight is not a product of thought or brain activity, rather of something else?
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dijmart
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:14 am

dijmart wrote: Well, if one does inquiry, becomes present/aware and thought drops, then actually insight happens through thought/mind that you are not your thought/mind, which is part of the illusion (thorn). :lol:
rachMiel wrote:Could it be that insight is not a product of thought or brain activity, rather of something else?
Yes, I was at work (shhh don't tell) let me explain myself better. As I see it, when present/aware thoughts can arise within the mind that are from awareness/consciousness itself which give insight/s. This will then usually start the mind thinking about the insight that had arisen. Which can in turn lead to further insight.
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dijmart
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:00 am

If you're interested, I loved this video, Ananta makes a direct Self inquiry with a man during a small satsang. I recall having so many Ah ha moments. I watched it for the first time a few yrs ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNl-Q86B8I

Sound quality isn't great, if you have ear phones you won't have trouble.
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by karmarider » Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:09 pm

dijmart wrote:Yes, I was at work (shhh don't tell) let me explain myself better. As I see it, when present/aware thoughts can arise within the mind that are from awareness/consciousness itself which give insight/s. This will then usually start the mind thinking about the insight that had arisen. Which can in turn lead to further insight.
That's how I see it.

I am with group of people who are new to awakening. The question they have a hard time with is why thinking is limited.

Thinking is of course a necessary part of awakening. But it's important to see that thinking is a limited and specific instrument. The ego is wrapped around thinking--in fact, some (Patanjali, Tolle, etc) say that the ego is identification with an instrument of knowing, rather than knowing. Thinking is labeling, conceptualizing, generalizing, categorizing, symbolizing, dividing and concluding.

Thinking is useful for articulating, categorizing, communicating insight. Insight does not come from thinking. It comes from observation (noticing, experiencing).

Ironically, it is hard to see this about thinking by thinking about it. Which is why so few people awaken. It seems to take some sort of accidental observation, which can happen when the mind is relaxed, as it is when it is suffering. To see the truth about thinking, one must observe thoughts. That's tricky. I would never have observed thoughts, were it not for a freakish conincidence of exhaustion from suffering and concindent reading of Tolle.

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rachMiel
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:14 pm

dijmart wrote:As I see it, when present/aware thoughts can arise within the mind that are from awareness/consciousness itself which give insight/s.
Please talk more about what you mean by thoughts that are from awareness itself.
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dijmart
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:07 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Please talk more about what you mean by thoughts that are from awareness itself.
Thought happens as a result of observation, noticing, knowings that come out of stillness/awareness/presence.
karmarider wrote:
dijmart wrote:Yes, I was at work (shhh don't tell) let me explain myself better. As I see it, when present/aware thoughts can arise within the mind that are from awareness/consciousness itself which give insight/s. This will then usually start the mind thinking about the insight that had arisen. Which can in turn lead to further insight.
That's how I see it.
:wink: I liked your post very much! Thanks
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:08 pm

dijmart wrote:
rachMiel wrote: Please talk more about what you mean by thoughts that are from awareness itself.
Thought happens as a result of observation, noticing, knowings that come out of stillness/awareness/presence.
Got it, thanks.

So what would you say is the relationship between thought and insight?

Does one cause the other? Does one always accompany the other? Do they spring from the same or different sources?

Is an insight a thought?
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dijmart
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:34 pm

RM, are you wanting a discussion? I don't know if you are questioning so much, because you don't know or you want to know what I think about what you're asking, because you do know. Dissecting thoughts relationship to awareness doesn't matter to me much to be honest.
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:53 pm

I was looking to look with you, see where it leads us.

But if you're not into it, that's cool. :-)
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dijmart
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:35 pm

rachMiel wrote:
So what would you say is the relationship between thought and insight?
Thoughts arise in consciousness, they themselves are not a problem, it's are identification with them that seems to cause the problems. If thoughts/mind is used as a tool for understanding, functioning, communicating, ect. then there isn't a problem in that, as I see it. So, thought is also a tool for awakening as KR stated already. We can have thought without insight, but insight seems to produce thoughts regarding that insight. So, if one has profound insight, but no thought about it ever, there could be no integration, understanding between awareness/consciousness and the mind.
Does one cause the other?
See above.
Does one always accompany the other?
See above.
Do they spring from the same or different sources?
All is consciousness ultimately. Insight comes from awareness, consciousness itself, not from mind. Thoughts arise within the mind from insight, collective consciousness or memory patterns or so it seems.
Is an insight a thought?
No, but becomes a thought arising within the mind or thinking happens regarding the insight.
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:31 pm

dijmart wrote:Insight comes from awareness, consciousness itself, not from mind. Thoughts arise within the mind from insight, collective consciousness or memory patterns or so it seems.
Thought interprets. It sees through the veil of its conditioning (DNA, memory, conditioning, etc.). Agreed?

Does insight also interpret?
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dijmart
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by dijmart » Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:03 pm

rachMiel wrote:
dijmart wrote:Insight comes from awareness, consciousness itself, not from mind. Thoughts arise within the mind from insight, collective consciousness or memory patterns or so it seems.
Thought interprets. It sees through the veil of its conditioning (DNA, memory, conditioning, etc.). Agreed?
With the insight to observe/see/know this, yes.
Does insight also interpret?
Insight can give knowings, ah ha moments, immediate recognition of truth. Is this interpreting?
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Re: Thought :: Awareness

Post by rachMiel » Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:53 pm

dijmart wrote:
rachMiel wrote:
Does insight also interpret?
Insight can give knowings, ah ha moments, immediate recognition of truth.
If, by truth, you mean actuality (what is) ... doesn't awareness see this on its own? What does insight bring to the table?

(There's a method to my madness! I'm trying to discover, with you, whether an insight is actually a thought, or some different species of mind activity entirely. The reason I care is because, if an insight is just a thought, then it, like any thought, is a conditioned response to "what is" rather than a clear glimpse of the essence of "what is.")
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