Your summary of your search

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lmp
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by lmp » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:50 pm

ashley72 wrote: I found Eckhart Tolle because I was suffering generalised anxiety disorder (GAD) and I was suffering from intrusive and unwanted thinking patterns.
The end of fear or anxiety is good, essential, and human beings deserve and need to discover a life without debilitating fear. But the end of fear is not truth. I think that people who have given spiritual matters a great deal of consideration and therefore have seen something, speak to others about more or less any activity, including fear and anxiety, of the nervous system that is going to prevent the listener from seeing the same thing for themselves. Perhaps they should not.

Do you feel that the so called spiritual people have indeed seen something, and what would an example be in your opinion?

Phil2
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by Phil2 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:11 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:
It's funny that as much as I can disagree with someone on other posts, I agree that much more here on this one. Good stuff Phil.
Yes it means you did not yet reach absolute perfection ...

:lol:
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

Enlightened2B
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by Enlightened2B » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:19 pm

lmp wrote:
ashley72 wrote: I found Eckhart Tolle because I was suffering generalised anxiety disorder (GAD) and I was suffering from intrusive and unwanted thinking patterns.
The end of fear or anxiety is good, essential, and human beings deserve and need to discover a life without debilitating fear. But the end of fear is not truth. I think that people who have given spiritual matters a great deal of consideration and therefore have seen something, speak to others about more or less any activity, including fear and anxiety, of the nervous system that is going to prevent the listener from seeing the same thing for themselves. Perhaps they should not.

Do you feel that the so called spiritual people have indeed seen something, and what would an example be in your opinion?
Any idea or concept that you would call 'truth' is merely just your own subjective interpretation of what 'truth' is. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Ashley on his views on spirituality. However, you mention that dissolving fear and anxiety is not truth and I'm saying that truth is subjective to each perspective and indeed valid from the point of view of that perspective, even if it is indeed....the ego perspective. I would say from my own experience and the Greater perspective of Being, there is only Being. But, embracing fear is a huge part of in that realization. Just my take.

lmp
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by lmp » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:26 pm

EternalPrize wrote: Unfortunately, given how maladapted and confused my conditioning was, my awakening has been and continues to be a synthesis of real-world egoic development and growth, and spiritual development into "what I actually am." In fact, I don't believe the two are even opposite. I wish I didn't need to go through the former as much as I've had to, but I know that awakening requires confrontation with all the difficult experiences life can offer the individuality within us. It's always a double-sided growth in my opinion. As one realizes that one creates the world one lives in, the ego naturally settles and becomes joyful and caring, which further feeds ones ability to rest within that awareness. At least with me, confronting the external world's difficulties plays an important role within this awakening.
I showed your post to my daughter and we talked a little bit about the little we now know about you. She's only 18 but has the spiritual drive too so I'm just encouraging her to seek out for herself some genuine people to discuss with, just like I like to do. May I ask you what is your daily life now? Do you work, study, what do you do.

lmp
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by lmp » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:07 pm

I learn a lot from your answers in this thread. As they started coming, at first I didn't want to interfere with the stories. Life is very rich and so the stories are too.

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Onceler
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by Onceler » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:34 pm

lmp wrote:
ashley72 wrote: I found Eckhart Tolle because I was suffering generalised anxiety disorder (GAD) and I was suffering from intrusive and unwanted thinking patterns.
The end of fear or anxiety is good, essential, and human beings deserve and need to discover a life without debilitating fear. But the end of fear is not truth. I think that people who have given spiritual matters a great deal of consideration and therefore have seen something, speak to others about more or less any activity, including fear and anxiety, of the nervous system that is going to prevent the listener from seeing the same thing for themselves. Perhaps they should not.

Do you feel that the so called spiritual people have indeed seen something, and what would an example be in your opinion?
I would say that, while the end of fear is not the truth, it clears the vision so truth can be seen.
Be present, be pleasant.

kafi
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by kafi » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:43 pm

Phil wrote: I don't see spirituality as an 'avoidance' of fear, but rather a means which allows you to SEE your fears more clearly for what they are, to become more aware of their roots ... and from there realize their futility and inability to hurt you fundamentally ... because in fact there is nothing to be hurt ...
I agree.
Onceler wrote: I would say that, while the end of fear is not the truth, it clears the vision so truth can be seen.
I like that. Precisely put.

Manyana
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by Manyana » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:17 pm

As fear has been mentioned, I thought this link maybe useful: Eckhart tolle - what is fear?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh8i1IJxkhw

kafi
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by kafi » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:16 pm

Thanks for the link, Manyana. Very useful.

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ashley72
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by ashley72 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:46 am

lmp wrote:
ashley72 wrote: I found Eckhart Tolle because I was suffering generalised anxiety disorder (GAD) and I was suffering from intrusive and unwanted thinking patterns.
The end of fear or anxiety is good, essential, and human beings deserve and need to discover a life without debilitating fear. But the end of fear is not truth. I think that people who have given spiritual matters a great deal of consideration and therefore have seen something, speak to others about more or less any activity, including fear and anxiety, of the nervous system that is going to prevent the listener from seeing the same thing for themselves. Perhaps they should not.

Do you feel that the so called spiritual people have indeed seen something, and what would an example be in your opinion?
The Whole point of PON is to bring about the end of mental suffering, which is completely avoidable if you know the root cause.

Our human brains main task is classifying the world we sense into categories. However sometimes the brain misclassifies a category and unwittingly creates a positive feedback loop which in turn causes instability in the system (mental suffering) of the Mind. This is because the Brain is a closed system of cause and effect. Our perception is an input or cause, whilst our nervous response is an output or effect. If our perception system is foscussed on its own output (nervous response) this can cause a feedback loop... Akin to a snake eating its own tail.

Image

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ashley72
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by ashley72 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:08 am

Phil2 wrote:
ashley72 wrote: PON seem to offer a solution at first.... but after much dedicated research the answer came from somewhere else. => http://www.anxietycoach.com

...

All the spiritual Mumbo Jumbo is a waste of time.... including empty concepts about Universal Consciousness etc.

Our nervous system is a complex system... and as such is better explained by Complex System Theory rather than Spiritual Mumbo Jumbo!
Hello Ashley,

If I understand what you said above, Eckhart Tolle's teachings are useless spiritual Mumbo Jumbo ...

... and you come here to warn the forum participants not to fall in this trap ?

??

Such a compassion really moves me Ashley ...

:lol:
You give me a direct quote or pointer from PON (with page no.) that can help an anxiety sufferer overcome their panic disorder? I'll tell you why it won't alleviate or treat panic.

This is the Wikipedia entry on panic disorder:
panic attack is a response of the sympathetic nervous system (SNS). The most common symptoms may include trembling, dyspnea (shortness of breath), heart palpitations, chest pain (or chest tightness), hot flashes, cold flashes, burning sensations (particularly in the facial or neck area), sweating, nausea, dizziness (or slight vertigo), light-headedness, hyperventilation, paresthesias (tingling sensations), sensations of choking or smothering, difficulty moving and derealization. These physical symptoms are interpreted with alarm in people prone to panic attacks. This results in increased anxiety, and forms a positive feedback loop.
The reason it forms a positive feedback loop is that the sufferer is perceiving, input cycle, of the output cycle (SNS) as alarming or dangerous...which inturn feeds back into itself like a snake eating its tail. It's actually very poignant that a snake is a symbol of "danger or fear"...so it's akin to fear of fear itself!!!! :lol:

Phil2
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by Phil2 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:05 am

ashley72 wrote: You give me a direct quote or pointer from PON (with page no.) that can help an anxiety sufferer overcome their panic disorder? I'll tell you why it won't alleviate or treat panic.

...

The reason it forms a positive feedback loop is that the sufferer is perceiving, input cycle, of the output cycle (SNS) as alarming or dangerous...
When you 'inhabit your body' as is so often recommended by Eckhart, then there is no more thought, hence no more feedback loop, hence no panic disorder ...

When you remain in presence there can be no anxiety and no panic Ashley, because anxiety needs thought to fuel itself ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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ashley72
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by ashley72 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:22 pm

Phil2 wrote:
ashley72 wrote: You give me a direct quote or pointer from PON (with page no.) that can help an anxiety sufferer overcome their panic disorder? I'll tell you why it won't alleviate or treat panic.

...

The reason it forms a positive feedback loop is that the sufferer is perceiving, input cycle, of the output cycle (SNS) as alarming or dangerous...
When you 'inhabit your body' as is so often recommended by Eckhart, then there is no more thought, hence no more feedback loop, hence no panic disorder ...

When you remain in presence there can be no anxiety and no panic Ashley, because anxiety needs thought to fuel itself ...
When you put your attention towards your inner body... you don't stop perceiving all of sudden because your are in the now.

Furthermore because it's impossible to stop perceiving....thoughts will arise spontaneously at any moment. The little voice in your head gives you clues to the "output cycle" of your perception.

If someone who is suffering from GAD started to place their attention towards their inner body, there would be a high probability of having a panic cycle... because they're more likely to interpret/perceive bodily sensations as dangerous and unwanted than a person not suffering from GAD.

It's not the attention towards the inner body that miraculously stops the panic, it's the understanding that you need to stop mis-perceiving unpleasant sensations as dangerous & something to be avoided. The moment a sufferer adopts a positive affirmation that these usually unpleasant feelings are normal and acceptable during their exposure... the positive feedback loop is de-activated... and the recovery from a panic cycle can start.

Remember No one can ever turn off the little voice in their head, because that is an output cycle of perception. Even Eckhart Tolle has a stream of thoughts.

The only way we can alter our thoughts is by changing our perceptions, but we can't turn those thoughts off.

The most effective way to alter mis-perceptions about something is through direct exposure. If you had an irrational belief about that thing... exposure should set the record straight.

Phil2
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by Phil2 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:19 pm

ashley72 wrote: If someone who is suffering from GAD started to place their attention towards their inner body, there would be a high probability of having a panic cycle... because they're more likely to interpret/perceive bodily sensations as dangerous and unwanted than a person not suffering from GAD.

It's not the attention towards the inner body that miraculously stops the panic, it's the understanding that you need to stop mis-perceiving unpleasant sensations as dangerous & something to be avoided.
When you truly 'inhabit' the body, there is no room left for such thoughts, therefore the panic cycle is not fueled ... this is how meditation has a positive effect on stress and inner tensions in fact ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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ashley72
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Re: Your summary of your search

Post by ashley72 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:04 pm

Look even in the case of the most famous self enquiry of Ramana Maharshi where the enquirer asks onself "to whom do these thoughts arise?".... "To me"...."Well whom am I?" The idea is to try and stop the thinking & silence the Mind by asking questions it cannot perceive an answer to. But perception doesn't ever stop, other thoughts will eventually pop into Mind fairly quickly... because that is the nature of our perception. It never switches off... only in deep sleep does it fall to a low level of in-activity where you can rest sufficiently, because the night is dark and quiet....so the Ventral attention stream isn't being continually peppered with stimuli that needs categorization.

You're absolutely kidding yourself if you belief placing attention on your inner body is going to silence your perception hence any resulting thoughts.

Anyone can do the inhabit the inner body practice directly now and see that it just isn't the case. :wink: If anything focussed attention activates the dorsal stream which is focussed thinking and ego-centric by nature... and far more likely to bring about a panic cycle in a GAD sufferer.

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