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Re: Your summary of your search

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:43 pm
by karmarider
ashley72 wrote:Look even in the case of the most famous self enquiry of Ramana Maharshi where the enquirer asks onself "to whom do these thoughts arise?".... "To me"...."Well whom am I?" The idea is to try and stop the thinking & silence the Mind by asking questions it cannot perceive an answer to.
That's not the case in my experience. Ramana (and Nisargadatta's) technique is clarified by John Sherman. Looking at what it feels like to be you--that puts attention on attention itself. During the actual doing of the technique, the mind does go silent, but I don't think that's the point. As far as I can tell, what happens is that awareness is what we are, and the verb of awareness is to be aware of something (notice, observe, put attention on), and so when the innate function of observation meets innate awareness, the mind can no longer hold up it's derived delusions.

In my view, the desired result is not a silent mind. The desired result is perhaps the recognition that mind's constructions (anxiety for example) are held up recursively. Something like that--I'm not clear on what the physical mechanism is, but I am clear that bringing attention to sense of I-am does unravel the constructions of the mind.

The silencing-of-the-mind thing, in my view, is overplayed in spirtual circles. My mind is perhaps just a bit quieter than it was ten years ago. I have the ability to willfully silence the mind (for a few seconds), to start and stop thoughts, and to think about one distinct thing at a time, and so I can say there is much more space in the mind than previously. I don't believe all my thoughts. I know I am not my thoughts. Insights don't come from thoughts. And so on. But silence of the mind is not my goal.

Re: Your summary of your search

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:16 am
by ashley72
Hi Kaushik,

The only way I've succeeded in recovering from my anxiety disorder is by exposing myself to fear triggers, I call these triggers the 1st fear. The 1st fear is usually reflexively, almost automatically. I could be at a shopping mall just doing some shopping when I just run into a friend I haven't seen for a while, I may immediately recoil from my old friend with fear, and then if I'm perceiving that recoil action as dangerous or threatening... I then add a 2nd fear to the 1st. The 2nd fear is the fear I add to the first fear because of the positive feedback loop that arises. Examples of 2nd fear are "Oh, my goodness! Here it is again!".... and in the past my immeditate reaction was to look for a quick escape route from the situation. However, now I know that is detrimental & only keeps the 1st fear conditioning in place.

What I do these days is say a positive affirmation like, "that recoil is to be expected, it's unpleasant but not dangerous. If I stay with this unpleasantness until it subsides, that recoil won't be as intense the next time around." ... And this is how you stop feeding 2nd fear to 1st fear.

I think each of us are tackling this stuff from a different set of circumstances, I'm coming at it from an acute anxiety sufferer. My medicine has been full exposure treatment....to really free myself from the shackles of the disorder. But if someone doesn't have an anxiety disorder what I'm saying is probably of know use to that audience. :D

Re: Your summary of your search

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:11 am
by karmarider
ashley72 wrote: I think each of us are tackling this stuff from a different set of circumstances, I'm coming at it from an acute anxiety sufferer. My medicine has been full exposure treatment....to really free myself from the shackles of the disorder. But if someone doesn't have an anxiety disorder what I'm saying is probably of know use to that audience. :D
Probably. My favorite fist thumping theory right now is that it's all about observation. The exposure you talk about can be said to be repeated, intentional and directed observation.

Re: Your summary of your search

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:06 pm
by Phil2
karmarider wrote:
In my view, the desired result is not a silent mind. The desired result is perhaps the recognition that mind's constructions (anxiety for example) are held up recursively. Something like that--I'm not clear on what the physical mechanism is, but I am clear that bringing attention to sense of I-am does unravel the constructions of the mind.
Right karma, attention (which also means awareness) is the key ... J. Krishnamurti used the expression "The Flame of Attention" (which is also the title of one of his well known books) ...

When there is attention, there can be no thought in fact ... thought and attention being mutually exclusive ... when you are really attentive, you cannot think, and reciprocally ...

Re: Your summary of your search

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:44 pm
by ashley72
karmarider wrote:
ashley72 wrote: I think each of us are tackling this stuff from a different set of circumstances, I'm coming at it from an acute anxiety sufferer. My medicine has been full exposure treatment....to really free myself from the shackles of the disorder. But if someone doesn't have an anxiety disorder what I'm saying is probably of know use to that audience. :D
Probably. My favorite fist thumping theory right now is that it's all about observation. The exposure you talk about can be said to be repeated, intentional and directed observation.
When I think about observation, I think about what level. Is it the fine grain level of atoms and molecules or the macro human level of apples and oranges. Because observation in relation to perception means a kind of pattern recognition and structuring or nesting. At the macro level of apples and oranges we throw out many un-important details beause they get in the way of usefulness at that macro level. We want to chop up oranges & apples and throw them together to create a fruit salad... It's not important to know the interactions of molecules at that macro level so we dispense with those fine grain details. So the quality of observation depends what level you're on... Each observation level has a different meaning and usefulness.

Re: Your summary of your search

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:45 pm
by blissrunn14
What compelled me to search for spiritual answers is...

I grew up with severe depression 24/7 and severe spiritual pain 24/7 starting as a very young child. I remember telling my mom and grandma I had a bad stomach ache all the time starting at about age 7, the belly ache I was talking about was my pain body, at the time I knew it wasn't a regular stomach ache, but I had no words for it and didn't know what it was. It has been debilitating and has hindered my entire life. I also had severe body dysmorphic disorder my face looked like a monster to me and I lived my entire life accordingly. A fairly recent breakup with the first person I fell in love with in my life was the last straw. The pain had become so unbearable I decided that I would stop at no lengths to discover my life purpose and how to free myself from this hell on earth. I am still on that search...