Are most claimed awakenings actually false

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EternalPrize
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Are most claimed awakenings actually false

Post by EternalPrize » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:38 am

I am a pretty cynical guy, and assume that most people who claim to be awakened are either 1) unscrupulous and do not honestly seek truth (I have this feeling about Bentinho Massaro, personally), or 2) do not have the discerning power, or the willingness, to cut down every last illusion that isn't "truth"

I do not think truth, or awakening, is something totally plain, though statements emphasizing the plainness of it are helpful for reminding one that it is nothing more than what already is.

So are there a lot of false awakenings online, or are a lot of people actually fully waking up these days? Does any of this mean anything?

tomtom1
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Re: Are most claimed awakenings actually false

Post by tomtom1 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:09 am

Yes I reckon your right. You have to be very careful who you can trust for pointers.

In my view I only really listen to a few contempory teachers because they are the only ones I think are genuine. Not sure about Benthino. I did see an interview with him once in which he said some interesting stuff, but ultimately he doesn't gel with me either.

Simple solution is to just use your own experience to verify everything. At the end of the day we can't use another experience. I personally feel now that I don't really need to read anymore books because it all seems to be happening internally. There is only so much reading words about something which really can't be described that you can take! :lol:

blissrunn14
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Re: Are most claimed awakenings actually false

Post by blissrunn14 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:22 am

Yes, a lot of people claim it falsely online and off. I grew up around a lot of religious "and" spiritual people and their true colors eventually show if you're around them enough so I know it happens online too. For some reason many people seem to think there is some type of value in pretending or looking like they are something they are not.

But, that's not everyone some people are for real and some people's experiences are legit. I know the few experiences I have had were real so I know it's possible.

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ashley72
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Re: Are most claimed awakenings actually false

Post by ashley72 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:36 pm

You really need to define awakening first.

I've overcome my own anxiety disorders (mental suffering) by understanding the underlying cause of positive feedback loops that reinforces irrational avoidance behaviours. By doing exposure therapy you can effectively reverse avoidance behaviours and live anxiety free again.

You can also overcome OCD, ruminations & worrying using the same exposure therapy.

But I still function from my egocentric viewpoint because it's necessary to navigate my life from this perspective. I have hopes and goals that I'm working towards which keeps me motivated & happy.

I haven't seen one supposedly awakened teacher who doesn't operate from a egocentric viewpoint. They may not suffer from mental anguish... & most of them seem to have conquered their fear of public speaking. Considering It has been estimated that 75% of all people experience some degree of anxiety/nervousness when public speaking, this puts them in a small percentage of people who have overcome that specific phobia.

But what you need to remember we can all learn to overcome our fears with the proper exposure therapy.

karmarider
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Re: Are most claimed awakenings actually false

Post by karmarider » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:28 pm

EternalPrize wrote:I am a pretty cynical guy, and assume that most people who claim to be awakened are either 1) unscrupulous and do not honestly seek truth (I have this feeling about Bentinho Massaro, personally), or 2) do not have the discerning power, or the willingness, to cut down every last illusion that isn't "truth"
Probably. It kinda makes sense that ego, frequently, would like to delude itself as enlightened or specially-blessed. And there is no shortage of followers--this I think stems from the need for validation, exclusivity and spiritual eagerness.
I do not think truth, or awakening, is something totally plain, though statements emphasizing the plainness of it are helpful for reminding one that it is nothing more than what already is.
Well, in my experience, in one sense, increasing clarity does seem to be plain. It is what is left when effort goes away.
So are there a lot of false awakenings online, or are a lot of people actually fully waking up these days? Does any of this mean anything?
My guess is there probably are more people awakening than ever before, probably because of increasing communication. As Ashley says, we need to define awakening, and I define it broadly, as an individual's journey of hacking away delusion and fear.

snowheight
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Re: Are most claimed awakenings actually false

Post by snowheight » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:04 am

EternalPrize wrote:I am a pretty cynical guy, and assume that most people who claim to be awakened are either 1) unscrupulous and do not honestly seek truth (I have this feeling about Bentinho Massaro, personally), or 2) do not have the discerning power, or the willingness, to cut down every last illusion that isn't "truth"

I do not think truth, or awakening, is something totally plain, though statements emphasizing the plainness of it are helpful for reminding one that it is nothing more than what already is.

So are there a lot of false awakenings online, or are a lot of people actually fully waking up these days? Does any of this mean anything?
Yes, I'd agree with the underlined but with the caveat that this truth isn't something available to mind as a conceptual statement and plain truth is often twisted into even plainer falsity by thinking about it. Do you have some expectation as to what or how someone with this willingness would act, and do you think that the illusions are countable?

To paraphrase Ash, as with any and all meaning, "Awakening" will mean various things to various groups of folks depending on their consensus associations with the word.

Certainly if it seems like someone wants something from you then the question of who or what it is that wants what they want is fair game. Perhaps even more interesting though, would be to notice whether or not we have the question with us as to why they want what they want. At some point, did you want to trust Bentinho?

Trust and respect are sort of currencies of human discourse and while it's wise not to be profligate with these there is a certain baseline respect that is due every human being on the merit of their being alone. That's not a bad place to start as really, there's no such thing as bankruptcy when it comes to trust.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Onceler
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Re: Are most claimed awakenings actually false

Post by Onceler » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:52 pm

So-called enlightened teachers are asking you to step into their understanding. As has been said here many times by many posters, we need to each find our own way and understanding. I would say that a truly enlightened, understanding teacher recognizes this and puts no confinement or restrictions on their student's understanding, knowing The course and progression will be different. My own evolution has been shaped by many different teachers, but probably more by life itself. It's kind of a irrelevant to me whether a teacher is enlightened or not, because I know that the teachers path is not my path.....
Be present, be pleasant.

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ashley72
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Re: Are most claimed awakenings actually false

Post by ashley72 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:36 pm

I think we can at least agree that "awakening" is more about overcoming mental suffering... Than overcoming ones equanimity! :lol:

So let's define the sufferer: What I have found is that there is a general pattern to all these upsetting bodily stimulation sensation effects. What happens is that a unwanted sensation comes up, it is experienced as disruptive, it is then suppressed, the suppression sensitizes it, making it more touchy, thus creating an alarm reaction when it comes up next. This makes for a positive feedback loop, similar to the loop that creates screeching when you hold a microphone up to a speaker that is tied to it. In this case you body is what starts screeching. Unwanted Sensation -> alarm -> suppression -> sensitization -> sensation -> alarm . . . getting more acute and intense with every loop – and the loops happen very very fast.

In general, this is the pattern of the “fight/flight/freeze” reaction. It is what happens at the direct experience level, i.e. at the sensation level. It is the actuality of what we experience when there is a fight/flight/freeze experience. Underneath fight/flight/freeze is bodily stimulation sensation alarm/suppression/sensitization. Same positive feedback loop.

Positive feedback is necessary to cause great change in a system... This is why it is so effective as a fear response. But it can be dysfunctional... and when it is... you suffer mentally & physically (nervous illness).

But you can recover and that is a form of awakening to how the nervous system really works. :wink:

If you take the speaker feedback analogy further... The microphone is like the sufferers perception, the sufferer starts to perceive the bodily sensations as dangerous and this in turn causes more nervous sensations, the output feeds back into the input!!!!!!!!!

Feedback is integral to the human experience of control & communication as a system... Take for example the feedback in human speech.

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