Osho

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alex
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Re: Osho

Post by alex » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:16 am

Could be.....or I'm just independent. :wink:
Maybe.. and a good thing too! I don't think I could truly belong to a spiritual group either. I remember feeling that when sitting in satang, just knowing that the universe wouldn't allow me to feel like I belonged there and that I could stop there. Like an insistent push find my own truth and to have complete integrity to that. It's interesting watching how students can completely lose themselves to a teacher, almost like the teacher becomes God. There's no yearning for real truth in that, but then not every one on the spiritual path is truly a seeker.

alex
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Re: Osho

Post by alex » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:20 am

Sorry to keep budding in here, but I took interest in the conversation. I think you're making a lot more here out of what Onceler said than what there is. Just because someone does not want to put a teacher or teaching on a pedestal and follow or join a particular group, does not mean someone has authority issues.
Don't be sorry for butting in! You're allowed your opinion too. Like I said, I was just taking a stab in the dark and, yes, possibly reading more into it than was there - it's just that I've had authority issues and was trying to help if, by chance, Onceler recognised that in himself too.

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Onceler
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Re: Osho

Post by Onceler » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:14 pm

alex wrote:
Sorry to keep budding in here, but I took interest in the conversation. I think you're making a lot more here out of what Onceler said than what there is. Just because someone does not want to put a teacher or teaching on a pedestal and follow or join a particular group, does not mean someone has authority issues.
Don't be sorry for butting in! You're allowed your opinion too. Like I said, I was just taking a stab in the dark and, yes, possibly reading more into it than was there - it's just that I've had authority issues and was trying to help if, by chance, Onceler recognised that in himself too.
I probably do, although I don't know how one would describe it as an issue. I get along fine with the authority figures in my life; my boss, the police, etc. and don't feel antagonism toward them. I think the issues come into play around spirituality and religion. I did go grow up in a very religious context and, rather than feeling fear around this, there is more anger, if anything, toward these institutions and figures.

I'm at peace with this now and not looking for salvation in any set of beliefs or practices and have come to accept my own independence and self-reliance for what it is.....not a flaw, but a trait. I think there was something in me, and perhaps all of us, which wants to be subsumed into a larger entity or organization (or God, or "oneness"). Something or someone who will tell us what to think, do and feel. This yearning is probably our nascent instinct that we are part of the bigger picture, oneness, etc, yet we look for this sense of beingness in all the wrong places.

This is the paradox of being human, we are all alone yet a part of everything.
Last edited by Onceler on Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Be present, be pleasant.

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coriolis
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Re: Osho

Post by coriolis » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:06 pm

One could legitimately say that Malala Yousafza also has authority issues.
It isn't necessarily a bad thing resist illegitimate authority (and just about all humanly established authority to some degree is illegitimate)

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beginnersmind
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Re: Osho

Post by beginnersmind » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:19 pm

Onceler wrote:
alex wrote:
Sorry to keep budding in here, but I took interest in the conversation. I think you're making a lot more here out of what Onceler said than what there is. Just because someone does not want to put a teacher or teaching on a pedestal and follow or join a particular group, does not mean someone has authority issues.
Don't be sorry for butting in! You're allowed your opinion too. Like I said, I was just taking a stab in the dark and, yes, possibly reading more into it than was there - it's just that I've had authority issues and was trying to help if, by chance, Onceler recognised that in himself too.
I probably do, although I don't know how one would describe it as an issue. I get along fine with the authority figures in my life; my boss, the police, etc. and don't feel antagonism toward them. I think the issues come into play around spirituality and religion. I did go grow up in a very religious context and, rather than feeling fear around this, there is more anger, if anything, toward these institutions and figures.

I'm at peace with this now and not looking for salvation in any set of beliefs or practices and have come to accept my own independence and self-reliance for what it is.....not a flaw, but a trait. I think there was something in me, and perhaps all of us, which wants to be subsumed into a larger entity or organization (or God, or "oneness"). Something or someone who will tell us what to think, do and feel. This yearning is probably our nascent instinct that we are part of the bigger picture, oneness, etc, yet we look for this sense of being ness in all the wrong places.

This is the twisted paradox of being human, we are all alone yet a part of everything.
What I got from Onceler speaking of his experience with Stephen Gray was maybe a realization of the Big Business of "spritiuality" and the kind of "act" that goes on to make one a hot commodity within the western spiritual consumerism world.

There is almost like an unofficial-unwritten playbook that a lot of "spiritual leaders" use to find their niche' in the capitalistic game of selling enlightenment. Dress a certain way, present oneself a certain way. Maybe change your name to something that sounds more spiritual like Adyashanti, Mooji, Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle (Meister Eckhart), etc.

Spirituality is big business in the western world and to sell your commodity, you must present yourself as having something others do not have, while at the same time telling these others that you do not have anything that they themselves cannot attain. This makes the end result promised achievable. This way, there is a never ending consumption of retreats, seminars, "spiritual" cruises, books, DVD's, webcasts, how to meditation CD's, etc. to sell.

In this capitalistic game in which a never ending consumerism is needed to maintain an income and lifestyle, presenting oneself as ordinary in the sense of looking and acting just like everyone else can be dangerous when it comes to making a living. Stephen Gray sounds rather dull and boring to the spiritual seeker, but Adyashanti.....well ahhhhhh doesn't that sound rather esoteric?

Yet time and again have "spiritual" leaders demonstrated their humanness and flaws through scandal and sometimes even downright fraud.

For me, I'd rather read the Dhammapada, or the Tao Te Ching, or Sri Aurobindo, rather than much of the modern pop spirituality of today presenting itself for sale. The only modern "teacher" I really relate to is maybe John Sherman, because he does present himself as human. He tells his story of being a criminal freely. When people speaks of their fears, he doesn't give them some spiritual platitude, but speaks to them where they are. He relates to the person, not dismiss their concerns as being "stuck in the dream" or something. Not to mention he doesn't charge these ridiculous prices (like the 3,000 dollar Eckhart Tolle 3 day retreat) that some of the other modern teachers charge for their "wisdom". I think he is strictly from donations.

The pop western spirituality seems to be a hobby for the financially well to do, or people who are not so well to do and scrape and charge on the their card the thousands of dollars to get a glimpse of the latest guru, hoping for some form of wisdom and/or enlightenment through a kind of osmosis.

OK. let me put this soap box back now. I'm sure someone will want to use it later. :mrgreen:

beginnersmind
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Re: Osho

Post by beginnersmind » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:25 pm

dijmart wrote:
beginnersmind wrote:
IMO, spirituality is about sinking one's teeth into life. .
Great, then I'm doing just fine then... :wink:
It is like the old Zen saying, "First there are mountains and rivers. Then there are no mountains and rivers. Then there are mountains and rivers." Of course paraphrased.
Ack, wanted to get away from all the typical sayings and quotes, regurgitated over and over, thanks for the example!
Right?!! That's how I felt when I was writing it. Like ugh, I'm speaking the very cliche' spiritual quotes that I usually speak against, as they often just become platitudes rather than pointers. But it does actually speak of the spiritual journey, and unfortunately for a lot of people, they usually get stuck in the 2nd step, believing that is the end all.

Neo-Advaitists are infamous for being stuck in the 2nd step, passing off spiritual bypassing and metaphysical gymnastics as wisdom.

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Onceler
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Re: Osho

Post by Onceler » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:24 pm

beginnersmind wrote:



What I got from Onceler speaking of his experience with Stephen Gray was maybe a realization of the Big Business of "spritiuality" and the kind of "act" that goes on to make one a hot commodity within the western spiritual consumerism world.

There is almost like an unofficial-unwritten playbook that a lot of "spiritual leaders" use to find their niche' in the capitalistic game of selling enlightenment. Dress a certain way, present oneself a certain way. Maybe change your name to something that sounds more spiritual like Adyashanti, Mooji, Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle (Meister Eckhart), etc.

Spirituality is big business in the western world and to sell your commodity, you must present yourself as having something others do not have, while at the same time telling these others that you do not have anything that they themselves cannot attain. This makes the end result promised achievable. This way, there is a never ending consumption of retreats, seminars, "spiritual" cruises, books, DVD's, webcasts, how to meditation CD's, etc. to sell.

In this capitalistic game in which a never ending consumerism is needed to maintain an income and lifestyle, presenting oneself as ordinary in the sense of looking and acting just like everyone else can be dangerous when it comes to making a living. Stephen Gray sounds rather dull and boring to the spiritual seeker, but Adyashanti.....well ahhhhhh doesn't that sound rather esoteric?

Yet time and again have "spiritual" leaders demonstrated their humanness and flaws through scandal and sometimes even downright fraud.

For me, I'd rather read the Dhammapada, or the Tao Te Ching, or Sri Aurobindo, rather than much of the modern pop spirituality of today presenting itself for sale. The only modern "teacher" I really relate to is maybe John Sherman, because he does present himself as human. He tells his story of being a criminal freely. When people speaks of their fears, he doesn't give them some spiritual platitude, but speaks to them where they are. He relates to the person, not dismiss their concerns as being "stuck in the dream" or something. Not to mention he doesn't charge these ridiculous prices (like the 3,000 dollar Eckhart Tolle 3 day retreat) that some of the other modern teachers charge for their "wisdom". I think he is strictly from donations.

The pop western spirituality seems to be a hobby for the financially well to do, or people who are not so well to do and scrape and charge on the their card the thousands of dollars to get a glimpse of the latest guru, hoping for some form of wisdom and/or enlightenment through a kind of osmosis.

OK. let me put this soap box back now. I'm sure someone will want to use it later. :mrgreen:
Yes, beginnersmind, this is close to what I'm saying....I think the commodity element is huge. Nothing (no one) will bring us salvation, only because we don't need to be saved!

The other element with Stephen Gray, I like the way you uncloaked him, is that he is essentially sitting in a throne! Who does that? Not even celebrities. Take a half step back from the spiritual marketplace and the whole thing just looks bizarre. The idea that someone would sit close to someone just to pick up resonant energy is very strange to me now (not that I don't believe in the transmission of some kindd of emotional energy, but it's usually a reason to move away from someone, not closer) although, at the time I took this all in as if it were normal and true.

By the way, I think you're mostly right about Sherman.....he has disavowed his act of looking from any spiritual implications and connections, which I like, but he does now sell his products, simply because donations were unsustainable. I fear his whole enterprise may soon go bust....
Be present, be pleasant.

dijmart
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Re: Osho

Post by dijmart » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:34 pm

beginnersmind wrote: Right?!! That's how I felt when I was writing it. Like ugh, I'm speaking the very cliche' spiritual quotes that I usually speak against, as they often just become platitudes rather than pointers. But it does actually speak of the spiritual journey, and unfortunately for a lot of people, they usually get stuck in the 2nd step, believing that is the end all.

Neo-Advaitists are infamous for being stuck in the 2nd step, passing off spiritual bypassing and metaphysical gymnastics as wisdom.
Yes, I agree and even felt stuck in that second step for awhile myself. Somehow I just don't need/want to think about it all right now. Doesn't seem necessary. Doesn't mean I won't be back on here again at some point, but for now, interests have lead me in other directions. Still knowing I'm a spiritual being having a human experience. All is well.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

Enlightened2B
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Re: Osho

Post by Enlightened2B » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:08 pm

dijmart wrote:
Yes, I agree and even felt stuck in that second step for awhile myself. Somehow I just don't need/want to think about it all right now. Doesn't seem necessary. Doesn't mean I won't be back on here again at some point, but for now, interests have lead me in other directions. Still knowing I'm a spiritual being having a human experience. All is well.
I hear ya. I'm kind of going through the same thing in my life. It's kind of 'taking a break' from the whole spiritual stuff. The knowing that you are a spiritual being of light is very powerful, isn't it? It's always there in the back of your mind when a situation becomes difficult. So, nice post and good luck to you in the meantime.

beginnersmind
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Re: Osho

Post by beginnersmind » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:52 am

Onceler wrote:
Yes, beginnersmind, this is close to what I'm saying....I think the commodity element is huge. Nothing (no one) will bring us salvation, only because we don't need to be saved!

The other element with Stephen Gray, I like the way you uncloaked him, is that he is essentially sitting in a throne! Who does that? Not even celebrities. Take a half step back from the spiritual marketplace and the whole thing just looks bizarre. The idea that someone would sit close to someone just to pick up resonant energy is very strange to me now (not that I don't believe in the transmission of some kindd of emotional energy, but it's usually a reason to move away from someone, not closer) although, at the time I took this all in as if it were normal and true.

By the way, I think you're mostly right about Sherman.....he has disavowed his act of looking from any spiritual implications and connections, which I like, but he does now sell his products, simply because donations were unsustainable. I fear his whole enterprise may soon go bust....
Yes, I think I've heard this too. Even if he is now selling his products such as books, audios, etc. I know he certainly isn't charging $3,000 per person for a 3 day retreat. Imagine if 100 people showed up? That would be $300,000 minus rent and expenses for 3 days work! That still leaves 362 days! Does a spiritual leader need this kind of money? Why not charge less to speak to more people? Or there's Gary Renard who charges over $300.00 an hour for a phone conversation in which he promises that his "ascended masters" may show up and speak through him to the person to bestow their wisdom on the person (which I usually bestow my "wisdom" to these fans online. DON'T CALL!).

With Sherman, his talks were always about donations and if you couldn't donate, no big deal. He seemed to always be talking about the importance of just getting the message out for people to at least try looking at themselves, especially since it was free.

And his talks seemed rather genuine like in the book, "Look at Yourself." It wasn't so much about the teacher bestowing their wisdom on the students. It was more of type of collaboration. After all, how many "teachers" ask the students over and over for feedback on ways to help the teacher teach better? Sherman's always asking this question.

What I got from that book was a down to earth guy who was not afraid to talk about his past. He was not afraid to not have all the answers. He was not afraid to ask for feedback/help. He didn't dismiss people's concerns, questions, fears. That felt genuine. Not this, "well you're stuck in this dream duality and reality is non-dual, so look to the essence of this and that, blah , blah, blah. You know, a lot of platitudes that really say nothing. Anyways, that's just my 2 cents.

Eric

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Onceler
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Re: Osho

Post by Onceler » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:35 am

Wow, yes Eric. I think you captured why I like him in a better way than I could articulate. I don't truly know if the looking method is for real. I think it is, as 80% of my anxiety is gone. But it takes time for everything to upheave and resettle. There is a vacuum the fear and anxiety left which is oddly hollow, but is starting to oxygenate again.
Be present, be pleasant.

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coriolis
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Re: Osho

Post by coriolis » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:38 am

beginnersmind wrote:Or there's Gary Renard who charges over $300.00 an hour for a phone conversation in which he promises that his "ascended masters" may show up and speak through him to the person to bestow their wisdom on the person (which I usually bestow my "wisdom" to these fans online. DON'T CALL!).
Row, Row, Row your boat gently down the stream.
Merrily, Merrily, Merrily, life is but a dream......

Until the time comes to deposit money in the bank...Then things get real!

I like what Peace PIlgrim said when she was asked why she never accepted money:
Peace Pilgrim wrote:Because I talk about spiritual truth, and spiritual truth should never be sold - those who sell it injure themselves spiritually....
Those who attempt to buy spiritual truth are attempting to get it before they are ready. In this wonderfully well-ordered universe, when they are ready it will be GIVEN.

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Re: Osho

Post by Enlightened2B » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:18 am

Depends on the service folks. I honestly don't have a problem with any spiritual folk trying to make a buck in this western world we live in, where money is kind of needed to get around.

Spiritual teachers/healers are humans in the western world, just like you and I. I don't see any reason, they shouldn't charge any kind of fee for the service they provide, just like you do for the service you provide in your own jobs/careers. In my opinion, it comes down to service. We all provide service in our lines of work, whatever field that may be. We earn money for doing it. Many of these teachers/healers do this full time and this is their way of earning money. It's one perspective to view it in the lens of 'the teacher is only out for making money', while another perspective can easily say that "the teacher is just trying to live and be able to afford things they enjoy, just like you and I". My beef is in the culture that surrounds these teachers in the spiritual community, in how these teachers are revered by their very word, not so much monetary though.

I hope in the future, that our vibration raises so greatly on this planet, that money (which is just a piece of paper for the most part) is no longer needed, especially in the healing aspect (which is really what spirituality is) at all. But, that's not the case right now.

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coriolis
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Re: Osho

Post by coriolis » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:52 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:Depends on the service folks. I honestly don't have a problem with any spiritual folk trying to make a buck in this western world we live in, where money is kind of needed to get around.

Spiritual teachers/healers are humans in the western world, just like you and I. I don't see any reason, they shouldn't charge any kind of fee for the service they provide, just like you do for the service you provide in your own jobs/careers. In my opinion, it comes down to service. We all provide service in our lines of work, whatever field that may be. We earn money for doing it. Many of these teachers/healers do this full time and this is their way of earning money. It's one perspective to view it in the lens of 'the teacher is only out for making money', while another perspective can easily say that "the teacher is just trying to live and be able to afford things they enjoy, just like you and I". My beef is in the culture that surrounds these teachers in the spiritual community, in how these teachers are revered by their very word, not so much monetary though.

I hope in the future, that our vibration raises so greatly on this planet, that money (which is just a piece of paper for the most part) is no longer needed, especially in the healing aspect (which is really what spirituality is) at all. But, that's not the case right now.
Fair enough.
Most all are convinced they need a roof over their head, food to eat, and enough to move through a world whose lifeblood is money.
But at some point "earning a living" becomes "creating a lifestyle of the rich and famous".
The message "All you need is love" tends to lose some of it's punch when people look at the messenger in a moment of critical thinking and aptly note from their behavior that "Love can't exist without a lot of money".

In our "world" money IS power and power corrupts.
There is no denying that as it happens consistently over and over again without exception.
It is a disease and if you have it you will manifest it's symptoms.

I know there are many people who say that the important thing is the message and not the messenger.
However, at a fundamental level, the message is the messenger and if the walk they walk is drastically different from the talk they talk there is a distinct fishy smell that (should) rankle in one's nostrils.
And that's just the way it is.

beginnersmind
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Re: Osho

Post by beginnersmind » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:11 pm

I don't begrudge someone making a living, even people in spirituality. What I do take issue with, is the outrageous fees that are charged by some of these so called "spiritual leaders" for them to bestow their wisdom on the masses.

Western spirituality seems to quickly becoming a hobby for the financially well to do (or the poor scraping all they have up). I find charging $3,000 for the equivalent of a 3 day seminar is ridiculous. Why is this much money needed? Even if only 10 people showed up, that is $30,000 dollars for 3 days!There comes a point when it goes past making a living to building one's wealth. If it is really about reaching the masses, why not drop the price so that more people can attend? This is only one example. I get offers in my email all the time and when I check them out of curiousity, I am astounded at the high prices that are charged for one day seminars.

Even TM meditation where you're simply taught a chant can run you thousands of dollars, and that foundation claims it just wants to help people. Right.

I also take issue with tactics of some of these "spiritual leaders" like Gary Renard, who is a fraud IMO, who takes advantage of the desperate and the gullible; charging $300.00 an hour in hopes of getting advice from some middle school level humored "ascended masters".

I am finding the current state of western spirituality to be kind of disingenuous. That's not to say there are not good intentions within it, but that often times I am seeing "leaders" putting the emphasis on trying to find their niche' in hopes of selling their commodity of enlightenment for financial gain.

There are some spiritual communities within my neighborhood that charge sliding scale fees for those who cannot afford full price. It would be nice is some of these New York Best Sellers list spiritual leaders took on this model.

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