First- and second-order awareness

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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:04 pm

Here's how it works for me:

As soon as you conceive something, you conceive its opposite.

So to conceive non-duality is to conceive duality, which contradicts non-duality.

To end the contradiction, don't conceive. Or, if you do, out of habit/compulsion, don't buy into it ... just let the concepts go, like so much noise.

This is an awkward argument for resisting the temptation to name that which cannot be named.

Wittgenstein said it more clearly:

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:49 pm

Baba said: Tolle is a very intelligent and articulate person with some excellent thought content to share. He is acknowledged worldwide as an expert on these topics. And yet, as you guys keep ignoring, he still feels a need for money, power and fame. And because he has that need he will experience fear, and because he fears he will suffer, whatever might happen to his money, power and fame. All that great thought content, and Tolle is still human.

This is an assumption, not that Tolle is human but some of the finer distinctions you make as opinion and then somehow think we're ignoring them - we're (well me anyway) is accepting that these are your opinions - based on your interpretation, your perspectives. You 'think' he's intelligent & articulate based on your measure of those qualities. You believe he 'feels a need for money, power and fame' - based on your understanding of those things and his experiences, not that they are actually his experiences, just your perspective of them. And from that assumption you draw the line to the assumption that he experiences fear over these things - you even believe you know what and how he fears.

From the horse's mouth, people asked, he shared, - if you take note of his sharing about Aware Doing (in ANE) you'll probably understand his actions better.

When he is asked to go somewhere and speak yes he writes it in his diary, gets dressed, gets picked up in a car and goes and listens and speaks and listens, then he goes home, takes his pants off one leg at a time just like everyone else.

What he has said though, is while he's getting dressed he's immersed in getting dressed, the experience of dressing in acceptance, enjoyment or enthusiasm & not making enemy, obstacle means to an end of anything or projecting out to the past or the future - just dressing. While he's walking to the car he's just putting one foot in front of the other in the direction of the car. When he's in the car he is in the car, when he is listening or talking he is listening or talking - not making assumptions and believing that his perspectives, his opinions are anything more than that in a fleeting moment. It's unlikely that he's secretly counting his money and fearfully trying to think of somewhere safe to stash it, or how much power he can exert over others - he's (for me) neutral bordering on submissive when it comes to the use of power.

Watch him in the video of him with the Dalai Lama - he's like a little boy. One who was/is concerned about their power and their fame would draw themself up to be 'bigger than', and he does not do that. (just my perspective)

He teaches that all things are impermanent in the material world - even his humanity, let alone money, fame, and power. He teaches that to define your self by those sorts of things is insanity - so why then would he a) define himself by them, b) be concerned whether they are there or not and c) fear losing them?

I wonder what it is about money, power and fame that scares you Baba - seeing as you have mentioned it a few times now and linked that emotion to it.

The thing with our thoughts is, it's not others who can learn the most from them, or even assess the quality of them - it's our self.

Reminds me of the thing that if we're pointing one finger at another - there are three times as many fingers pointing back at us.

Just so you know that part of your posts is not really being ignored. :wink:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:19 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:
Rob X wrote:
Once you stop believing in Santa Claus your experience of the world becomes more faithful to how things really are - it's the same with the separation delusion.


I must be the only person who never truly believed in Santa Claus. Maybe because of my partial Jewish upbringing.

That's closer to the truth than you know E2B - we frame our perspectives based on our culture and our exposure to how to interpret things.

I understand that there were many characters that Father Christmas, Kris Kringle etc represented, characters who brought coal and food and toys to children in the mid winter, but Santa Clause the big bellied ho-ho'er he was a creation of Coca Cola's admen. Any parent who leans one way or another, rather than explain all of the factors of a thing to a child, is doing the child a disservice. I do believe in the Spirit of Santa / Father Christmas / Kris Kringle etc in charity & kindness, but it's never made me buy a bottle of coke. :wink:

It is the same with our and others' persona's they are a composite character, ever changing and undefined by characteristics, experiences, possessions or relationships - those things are transient - including thoughts.

Image

There's a level of awareness that goes beyond what's been discussed so far, it's when you realise that we are all and nothing of it together. Not that we are one or the other and experiences and expressions of us don't exist, but that they (all) do.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby rachMiel » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:24 pm

Isn't the peak of the mountain climb missing:

Contentedly Conscious Unknowing: I know that I ultimately don't know, and I'm like utterly cool with it.

;-)
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:55 pm

Contentedly Conscious Unknowing: I know that I ultimately don't know, and I'm like utterly cool with it.


I'd say that's a given :D

What then is there to think about?
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby rachMiel » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:46 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:What then is there to think about?

Whatever catches one's (mind's) fancy.

These days, when I passionately "inquire" into an existential thingie ... I see it like doing an interesting (and really tough!) crossword puzzle. Yes, I toil away, I'm deeply engaged, I try my utmost, I celebrate the Ahas! (got the word) and feel dejected at the failures (didn't get it). But I know it's ultimately just ... a crossword puzzle! And, when I'm done, I let it go ... don't try to hold onto anything.
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