First- and second-order awareness

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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby Baba Bozo » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:04 pm

Excellent reply to my yam poem! And unlike my poem, actually relevant to the thread. :-)
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby rachMiel » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:19 pm

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby Baba Bozo » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:45 pm

I thought that I am,
Probably a yam,
Or maybe a guy named sam,
A girl called pam?
A crook on the lam?
Who I yam that I yam, so hard. Damn!
And then wham!, it hit me,
Bam, right between the eyes,
All this yamming...
Always gets me in a jam!
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby tod » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:21 am

dijmart wrote:Love your post tod! I completely agree!! I was going to say something along the lines of a shift in perspective and still feel that way, but what you said fits the bill even better. I find it difficult to put any words to it honestly.


Thanks Dij. Yes, the struggle with words. Know it well.
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby tod » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:23 am

Not essentially disagreeing with anything you have said below E2B. Just adding another perspective for my own clarification.

Enlightened2B wrote:I'll explain what I meant in that quote above in case anyone was confused by it.

Realizing the I AM, is Self Realization as I see it. But, in my opinion, is merely one step. Eckhart Tolle and many of the non-dual teachings don't delve any further, which is why I find them very useful, but only to a certain extent.


As seen here, there is no other step. Any other step would be back into thought, but as consciousness itself in thought. Not that consciousness goes into thought, it only thinks itself there.

I can only suggest for mere consideration that there is more to possibly consider about our human experience than merely realizing that 'we are not our thoughts'. I AM realization is only useful to realize that whatever arises, is perfectly valid....because it merely JUST IS. It's a huge step for sure and for some people, it's all that is needed (and my main focus right now).


I see nothing more world shattering than 'we are not our thoughts' or ‘I am not in thought’. (Of course then the bodymind has to ‘catch up’ with this).

Yet, understanding how manifestation works really can and has been life changing for many other people (including myself) as well in the realization that we very much have free will and free will is and always is at play whether we believe it or not, especially with Self realization.


So called "manifestation" is thought thinking it is in some (thought to be) situation. So yes, you need to be careful what you are thinking, as changing thoughts can change lives whilst there is a thought that someone is living.

I, as I AM, don't have to have anything to manifest consciously or unconsciously. It happens on its own with intent and attention. Of course, there is nothing to have because whatever arises....merely is....what is. And I AM is....what is. There is nothing separate from....what is. But, that doesn't mean that we don't create our experience in any moment. Just because experience is not separate from us, does not mean we (as I AM) don't create it. That's what the human experience is about in my opinion. Self Realization first, and then creation through intent. Thought is the ultimate creator. So, manifesting consciously, provides endless options for experience.


Intent and attention are thoughts (foci) in time and space. (and time and space are thoughts - another (thought) story.)

Consciousness is experience, but consciousness is not experienced nor is it experiencing. In order for consciousness to ‘do this’ it appears (so called ‘manifests’) via experiencing itself as something somewhere - in mind or thought only - so obviously endless options, ranging from some quite vague and vaporous to others quite dense and solid.

As seen here, Human ‘manifestation’ is just at the more dense end of the thought/mind spectrum, due to repeated and chronic immersion in it’s particular culture of thought - but this is changing as thought does.
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:33 am

tod wrote:
Intent and attention are thoughts (foci) in time and space.


Yes, they are. But, I don't see the relevance to be honest in this particular discussion.

Meaning, whether it's an illusion/thought created or not, does not change the fact that I AM being this experiential human experience. I'm still typing on a computer and so are you. I'm still eating to feed this body and so are you. I AM...not merely this body/mind, but I AM....Being....this body/mind for this temporary human experience. I AM also existence itself. No matter how much I observe thoughts or go beyond identification with thoughts, I AM....still....Being this human experience until this body goes six feet under. So, I say, why not work with thought so that I can potentially make for a much richer experience?

Consciousness is experience, but consciousness is not experienced nor is it experiencing
.

I would say that I AM (whatever you would like to call it) is very much experiencING, not in the sense that it is experiencing a separate reality apart from itself, but that the reality it is experiencing IS its own constantly evolving manifestation via thought. It is the experiencER and the experience itself in its own (somewhat lucid) dream. It is simply I AM, experiencing and knowing itself and growing and evolving through every possible avenue through its (sort of ) dream characters. From the perspective of I AM itself, it is one experience in its own mind, but from the viewpoint of its multiple aspects of itself achieving this (dream characters), it appears to be separate and multi-dimensional. To put it very basically, the way I see it, is that waking up is realizing that the dream characters were just that....dream characters and that ultimately, who we are, was always.....WHAT IS/I AM.

Just my take.
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby tod » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:33 am

Very good E2B. First class. Thank you. No argument with anything you have said in your latest post here.

E2B wrote: From the perspective of I AM itself, it is one experience in its own mind,


Yes, and Tod could say this too. I could think all of experience to be for me alone, for my benefit only - just as I AM appears to. But in doing so, Tod forgets that he is not in the same ‘position’ as I AM. Even if Tod were to ‘get quite wise’ in this condition, he would know next to nothing of love, the consideration and respect of and for others - so he cannot get really wise. It looks like he has to ‘melt’ into the wisdom and love of I AM to know that...

This ‘melting’ of Tod (which I touched on in a previous post in this thread) produces changes in Tod’s experience - to such an extent that Tod has trouble finding Tod at times (understandable, as Tod has to be thought of in order to ‘find’ him). So it seems Tod is ‘moving towards’ where there is no experiencING and nothing experiencED for there is no Tod in actually to do any experiencing, nor any time in which it was or is experienced. It appears this may be slowly becoming ‘my’ experience.

Of course this could also be a result of age :) but I think it more likely that since Tod retired from ‘full time’ immersion in the ‘working culture’ of the current human condition, that Tod has more ‘hung loose’ and ‘loosened the grip’ on (some) beliefs/conditioning.

It is interesting to ponder that perhaps (some of) the mental vagueness of old age, including forms of what may be called dementia, may simply be a more full return to I AM…

Not that anyone actually left.
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby dijmart » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:54 am

Great discussion you two, you've put words to what is difficult to express, bravo!

I think one of the biggest misunderstandings is that people think awareness comes and goes, where actually we are awareness! What you are never..goes..any where. It is being lost in thought, mind, body and objects that has one...miss...it. one can not find awareness in thought, even though thought is awareness also, as is everything.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby Rob X » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:09 pm

The problem we are trying to address arises not from the content of thought, but from the nature of thought. And thought is a non-negotiable necessity of human life.

The reason that endless centuries of investigation in to these topics has not delivered the peace we seek is that the illusion of separation that plagues us is built in to the fabric of what we're made of, thought.

Any idea or insight you may come up with here will be immediately infected by the inherently divisive nature of what that idea is made of. There is no clever little trick by which we can maintain "I", the person who seeks peace, and be finally forever rid of division and conflict too.

We need only read the title of Tolle's best known work, The Power Of Now. The title doesn't read "The Power Of Planning For The Future", which is what all these discussions are all about.

We can escape conflict in the now by taking a break from that which is causing the conflict, thought. That's great news!

But then we will have to return to thought to function as human beings, and when we do, the conflict will return.

Tolle tells us to accept what is.

That is what is.

We are thought.

Thought is inherently divisive.

To think, is to suffer.


Thought is fine so long as we see it for what it is.

The illusion of separation is more accurately a delusion, a false belief. Once the delusion has been seen through it can be abandoned.

Once you stop believing in Santa Claus your experience of the world becomes more faithful to how things really are - it's the same with the separation delusion.

This is not to say that differentiation and individuation will not still be apparent - they are built into the fabric of the human condition. The delusion is to mistake differentiation for separation. But there is no separation, there never was - only this… inexplicable dance of existence.

Take Ramana, he saw only Self in all things. The trees were Self, the birds were Self, a meeting or conversation was Self to Self. Yet he turned his head when his name was called. He managed to eat his meals without the need of a bib. He succeeded in opening doors and not walking into walls. The point being is that although for Ramana there was nothing but Self, he saw the differentiation that is apparent in the phenomenal world… heck, he even fell in love with a mountain.
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:32 pm

Rob X wrote:This is not to say that differentiation and individuation will not still be apparent - they are built into the fabric of the human condition. The delusion is to mistake differentiation for separation. But there is no separation, there never was - only this… inexplicable dance of existence.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there *is* only the "inexplicable dance of existence." Why assume that separation is not part of the dance? It is, after all, inexplicable ... so how can one be certain of the absence of separation?

To me, non-duality is a way of looking at things, a "focusing" on the whole. It's a perspective, one of many possible perspectives, not necessarily the only ultimately true perspective.

And let's say ALL perspectives are ultimately un-true, because they are interpretations rather than the real thing. Then ALL the words go away: different, individual, separation, connection. Is that what you're getting at?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby Rob X » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:18 pm

rachMiel wrote:Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there *is* only the "inexplicable dance of existence." Why assume that separation is not part of the dance? It is, after all, inexplicable ... so how can one be certain of the absence of separation?


Well that would be a paradox of the first order. Separation in this type of usage means separate from the inexplicable dance of existence (the absolute/totality/being etc.)

So that would be like asserting that the absolute contains something that it doesn't contain.

But yes, I agree that nonduality is not necessarily the only way of 'looking at things' - it just happens to more faithfully align with my deepest sense and understanding of existence than the duality that I was conditioned with.
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:32 pm

tod wrote:Very good E2B. First class. Thank you. No argument with anything you have said in your latest post here.

E2B wrote: From the perspective of I AM itself, it is one experience in its own mind,


Yes, and Tod could say this too. I could think all of experience to be for me alone, for my benefit only - just as I AM appears to. But in doing so, Tod forgets that he is not in the same ‘position’ as I AM. Even if Tod were to ‘get quite wise’ in this condition, he would know next to nothing of love, the consideration and respect of and for others - so he cannot get really wise. It looks like he has to ‘melt’ into the wisdom and love of I AM to know that...

This ‘melting’ of Tod (which I touched on in a previous post in this thread) produces changes in Tod’s experience - to such an extent that Tod has trouble finding Tod at times (understandable, as Tod has to be thought of in order to ‘find’ him). So it seems Tod is ‘moving towards’ where there is no experiencING and nothing experiencED for there is no Tod in actually to do any experiencing, nor any time in which it was or is experienced. It appears this may be slowly becoming ‘my’ experience.

Of course this could also be a result of age :) but I think it more likely that since Tod retired from ‘full time’ immersion in the ‘working culture’ of the current human condition, that Tod has more ‘hung loose’ and ‘loosened the grip’ on (some) beliefs/conditioning.

It is interesting to ponder that perhaps (some of) the mental vagueness of old age, including forms of what may be called dementia, may simply be a more full return to I AM…

Not that anyone actually left.


Glad to hear that 'Tod' is melting away. Wish 'E2B' (the thought constructed personality, not the perspective of Awareness) would melt away a bit more at times, but E2B is a stubborn compulsive thought construct which likes to make life hell at times 8) It's all good though.

Thanks for sharing your own experiences so candidly and vulnerably.
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:36 pm

Rob X wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there *is* only the "inexplicable dance of existence." Why assume that separation is not part of the dance? It is, after all, inexplicable ... so how can one be certain of the absence of separation?

Well that would be a paradox of the first order.

Yes, a paradox!

But "paradox" is a conceptual construct, an invention of the mind, part of the dance of concepts = the story.

So, to equate an apparent paradox with being false (or true) is imo a mistake.

Personally, when I run into a (seeming) paradox ... I feel I'm on the right track. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:41 pm

Rob X wrote:
Once you stop believing in Santa Claus your experience of the world becomes more faithful to how things really are - it's the same with the separation delusion.


I must be the only person who never truly believed in Santa Claus. Maybe because of my partial Jewish upbringing.
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Re: First- and second-order awareness

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:24 pm

rachMiel wrote:To me, non-duality is a way of looking at things, a "focusing" on the whole. It's a perspective, one of many possible perspectives, not necessarily the only ultimately true perspective.


I think if we over analyze it, it becomes just 'another perspective'. Meaning, what non-duality points to, is one way to look at the world, while materialism is another way. From a rational, logical, conceptual human mind perspective, who's to say which way is more accurate? You can pick either and claim it to be truth.

That's why I feel a deeper knowing, feeling kind of realization is the only true way to connect with who we truly are. We've all had those moments at some point or another, hence why we are here typing on this forum. Tolle's work has moved us all so much to the point where we all (at one point or another) finally stopped identifying (even temporarily) with the mind. Finally seeing the clouds as just clouds leaves an open, free existence in which you and I both are and that, to me, is what (what some call "non-dual") realization is. Therefore, what non-duality points to, is not one of those things you can really analyze, because it just becomes another limited concept.

On the other hand, having an understanding of consciousness can really help 'confirm' that non-dual perspective. That's why I believe that certain types of experiences can truly aid the understanding of who we truly are. Not experiencing something, as a way to cling to something else that's merely temporary, but experiences for confirmation. Some of us need that. My mind is incredibly analytical and skeptical as a former hardcore atheist, I can say that I always required proof that something was the way it is. Granted, self realization has nothing to do with that, I do feel those burning questions tend to arise after awakening such that "What is all of THIS" and the all famous one "How can I know that consciousness is not merely a product of my brain'? The advaita self inquiry response such that 'the brain is known to consciousness' has always been one of the silliest nonsensical answers I've ever heard and doesn't work for me. Therefore, a further delving into consciousness studies can provide a lot of insight to the questions that constantly come up on this board such as this very topic of discussion.
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