Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:30 pm

What if we consider that it's the manifestation itself that's evolving. But the manifestation IS the NOW. So as the manifestation evolves, the I AM learns about itself through every vantage point in existence. Since it's ultimately all consciousness, it's consciousness itself that's evolving through its manifestations. But not evolving in a physical way, but evolving by learning more and more about itself through every aspect of its manifestation. Who's to say that just because the Now is the Now, that it can't learn about itself through its own dream of experience? Knowing all that is, is far different than experiencing it.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:10 pm

Another thing to consider.....who's to say there is one Source? One All That IS? Perhaps that too is on going infinite expansion. Meaning, there's a lot we can speculate on as limited humans, but not a lot to be certain of from this vantage point.

the Now IS experience, but what is it like to know yourself through the experience? What is it like to experience yourself as something that appears to be NOT yourself? The process of growth and evolution we can possibly say is a game of sorts, not necessarily a pointer to a Consciousness that is actually physically 'growing', but more of a growth within it's own Self. If All That Is IS as it IS, then it would also have the capability of blinding itself TO Itself in the process of re-learning who it is through a sort of evolutionary game. Waking up in the dream to know that it's a dream is quite an experience as opposed to being awake the whole time. Contrast and relate-ing is the purpose of the game.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:58 am

How can everything be be divide into multiple everythings? Everything is everything. There can only be one everything. It is inclusive of everything - but it can be only one. The one that is all.

If you choose to perceive it as divided, then that perception of division is an inclusion of the one that is everything. The one never became two in Truth, only in a perception that is a relative aspect of that one Truth - which is included as that Truth to the same extent as all other relative truths. Sum total of all relative truths = absolute truth(?).

Again you don't seem to be coming at this from the same direction as me. If the Now is already all potentials that have been and that will be then how can it ever be made more? Manifested reality may be in a process of learning and growth, but that doesn't mean that the Now itself is. If the Now is the origin of ALL manifested experience, then it is the origin of ALL manifested experience. All experience that has been, that could have been, that will be, that may be. It's ALREADY all this experience right Now. So there is no more experience to learn from. From the perspective of Now, it is all this experience right Now. In being everything, there is no way to be more. It already is all.

This doesn't mean the manifested doesn't go through an infinite fractal learning system of endless growth. That is the way I see manifested reality at this time. What the ultimate reality that underlies and originates all this manifested reality cannot (from my current perspective) undergo a process of growth. It cannot grow because it already is all potential that can ever be. When there is only 1, there is no other that can be added to it for it to grow. There is only 1.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:17 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:What techniques to you do to move deeper?

I yo-yo between:

Inquiring like a madman. As if my life depended on it ... ;-)

and

Simply living, with pretty much no effort to become anything other than what I am in the moment, warts 'n all.

Sometimes I think of it like golf. You practice like mad, obsess on technique, make huge efforts to understand and improve. And then, when you're out on the course, you let it all go and simply play!

You?
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:50 pm

I would suggest that growth is (in my estimation) a part of the game. As I personally see it, Source itself is not actually 'growing' in the sense that you are implying that it's becoming more than it already is. But, I'd also suggest that there is more to it than what you mention and what any of us can comprehend here. It's gaining growth in the aspect of the game itself, just like you and I gain growth when we learn something. Dreaming up a fake world to imagine yourself as something you are not, in order to remember again who you are, implies, that finding your way back home to yourself would mean growth.

Growth in the aspect of remembering and re-learning who you are through the game/dream/manifestation. The Now implies knowing all that is already, since it already IS....all that is.....and there is only NOW. But, perhaps even manifestations created, are not necessarily being 'experienced' in the context of learning about the manifestation by becoming the manifestation. (this is reported by Nanci Danison among others as well). Source might have manifested the universe, but doesn't mean that it's all being explored yet in the context of putting itself within the game. Source is energy. Consciousness is but an aspect of Source. The experience of re-learning who you are through all sorts of imagined/manifested situations, would bring growth to you in the sense that you as I AM, can't actually experience a real world of separation, and understand what it's like, so you imagine what it would be like to divide yourself into aspects of yourself. Do you, as a 'human being' grow? Of course you do. So do I. We all do. But, we're not separate from Source/I AM. So, who's actually growing? Is it just imagined growing?

Let me say this. While I'm taking a stab at this like everyone else, and can only playfully have fun with this from my own very limited perspective.....this is reported in many of the deepest NDE's. I've read all three of Nanci Danison's books (multiple times over the past year). Nanci has even referenced soul less humans. I've read Mellon Thomas Benedict's work as well and he's reported many areas of the universe that have been created energetically, but still not experienced. Meaning, all that IS already KNOWS its manifestation, because it already is.....ALL THAT IS, but the actual experience, is where the insight is gained, by putting yourself into the game (putting an aspect of your consciousness into your own creation.....the experience of the soul) and learning about your true nature by experiencing yourself once again....as something....you are not. It's experiencing yourself as Love through every imagined aspect and learning what Love is through those aspects.

I can create a world within my imagination and know every aspect of the world that exists. But, what would it be like to actually experience those aspects as though, I am an aspect of that world? I can choose to blind myself by pretending I am that aspect and interact with different aspects of this imagined world and try to remember who I by relating to these different aspects, when in reality all of it is merely happening in my own mind.

After reading many of these NDE's, it's come clear to me that experience itself is where insight is gained. Everything that exists is already a manifestation of Source including every mineral, every bacterium, every rock. But, that doesn't mean that every mineral, every bactierum, every rock is being experienced through the eyes of Source. This is where Soul experience/reincarnation/etc, come into play. Source chooses (through its individual aspects) to explore areas of its creation. Therefore, growth does exist, but ultimately, only within the imagination of Source.

Again, I believe it's far more complicated than we can imagine here and none of us will truly know until we die. None of this still is ultimately important, but it's fun to talk about.

That's my stab at it for now.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:58 pm

Zen said: If experience is infinite then potentials are infinite. All occurring Now.

But the Now itself is beyond experience(?). Remaining unaffected by experience (? - key question).

Regardless of the infinite potentials of experience, the Now is the origin of all experience. It already is all experience. So how can it evolve? It already is all things Now, so how can it be any more than the infinite experience that it already is?


eek... tied me little brain knots ye did!

There is a sense of the first notion potentials & therefore experiences are infinite, and all occurring Now. This is a tricky enough one to remember in perceived limitation & isolation because multiple potentials are all simultaneously Now, but we 'know' it by our limitations, not by the potentials.

Maybe it's the word 'evolve' - because that suggests something outside of what is.

What can 'evolve' is the perspectives of limitations within infinite experience, so you're right, not the infinite experience that already IS.

I'm madly trying to think of a metaphor and they are unlimitedly everywhere - it's raining outside - to what purpose - well, no purpose really it's just a natural consequence (unfolding movement of energy) of previous movements of energy at a variety of combinations and densities. Every individual rain drop is having a different experience - not right or wrong just is. Whether it falls on a flower and nourishes it, or falls on a piece of plastic covering and becomes a home for breeding mosquitoes, or falls into a river and out to the seas a) it is still rain in this current form b) it is still a part of the experience of 'raining' with all the potential cause & effect properties manifested and c) when its energy changes the fact that it 'was' 'is' has known itself as rain is eternal.

I want to say folks are looking 'outside' for reasoning, and there is no 'outside'.

There is no overarching, there is no superior directive.

There is no 'if' - experience is by energy in motion at different densities & frequencies of experience itself. Potentials are infinite, and all occurring NOW for there is no other 'time' and there is no other 'place'. NO thing is outside the effect and affect of energy in motion at different densities and frequencies - that's what experience is.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby tod » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:29 am

As conscious potential in thought, I am. There is no need for I AM, as there is no other conscious being. No matter who or what is perceived, there is no other conscious being.

Of course there is potential to become lost in thought (been there, done that), but that is not what I am. As conscious potential in thought I am conscious in thought, I do not think I am in thought. Thought is what I am in thought. Thought is when I am in thought.

Thoughts like "I am pqr" or "I know xyx" are obviously not my thought. As if I thought such thoughts, I obviously would not be conscious, aware, and could not know. I would only think I know, and I don't.

Being conscious potential in thought is knowing/being all there is to know and be this eternal moment. Everything else is imagination, ie not knowing-being, conscious being.

So yes, it could be said that I have evolved to my current state. Such is evolution in thought only.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:18 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:I want to say folks are looking 'outside' for reasoning, and there is no 'outside'.


Ok, Let me try this one more time here :D

I agree, and I made it clear, that the way I see it, is that, there is no outside or Something that is evolving into something more. When I talk about evolution and I hear others, I think that most of us are referring to the manifestation, the dream or whatever you want to call it that is actually evolving, which it is.

I understand Jen's reference to the raindrop of having no purpose of being a raindrop, and her excellent description of cause and effect, but I'd also suggest that her description of purpose in the context of cause and effect, is of a different context than the purpose I am referring to. Since the topic was 'purpose', I'd suggest that purpose is 'experience' and only experience. The experience of a raindrop's purpose as of equal value as the experience of this human experience typing on this keyboard as is of equal value as the experience of a bacterium or mold. Purpose is within the experience. But, the experience of anything is the perception of that aspect. There is no experience outside of perception, whether it's the perception of a human, a bacterium, a raindrop, a molecule, etc. Experience is what illuminates any aspect of I AM into knowing from that particular aspect.

Learning and growth is gained within the 'dream' itself as the experience is within the dream, and not outside the dream. It's not that Source is gaining something more to improve itself as Source already IS all that IS and all that can possibly BE and that WAS as even that is saying too much as ultimately, it's only NOW. It's merely an understanding of itself through a play of its own imagination, and within that imagination, Source is gaining the experience of each of its apparent separate aspects as they evolve vibrationally. The purpose of experience is for Source to know itself as Love through each apparent aspect of itself. I don't believe it's any more complicated than that from a purpose stand point.

Please understand folks, that a lot can get lost in language and context and it's good if we explain to each other contextually as far as where we are coming from. I think we all understand that all is NOW, but there's clearly an apparent reality of separation, so the question of the thread of what ultimately matters, is in reference to....what matters for each of us ultimately? The only thing that ultimately matters is 'experience'.

Just my take
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby rachMiel » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:42 am

Enlightened2B wrote:The only thing that ultimately matters is 'experience'.

Interesting.

Thinking out loud here ...

Experience is subjective and individual, right? My experience of this moment is determined by my subjective state of mind, and it is individual = not your experience or anyone/anything else's.

So if experience is all that ultimately matters, does this mean that the subjective/individual is all that ultimately matters?
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:15 am

rachMiel wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:The only thing that ultimately matters is 'experience'.

Interesting.

Thinking out loud here ...

Experience is subjective and individual, right? My experience of this moment is determined by my subjective state of mind, and it is individual = not your experience or anyone/anything else's.

So if experience is all that ultimately matters, does this mean that the subjective/individual is all that ultimately matters?


Well, we're all thinking out loud, so I'll respond anyway.

The way I see it and again, it's just my own perspective. Ultimately, all experience is subjective, so all experience matters because it's through experience and perception where we learn about who we are. Do we not? How does awakening happen? Through experience. Whether you believe that there is an experiencer or not is fine. It's still experience itself, where awakening happens. In order to awaken, you first need to believe yourself to be something OTHER than yourself, other than THIS. Otherwise, you're not awakening from anything. Experience provides insight and growth in the sense that we (as individual, but not separate aspects of Source) are growing in vibration, the more we align with our nature as Being. Ultimately, sure, we are Source itself. But, we're also relative aspects of Source and likely for many more lifetimes. This is why context is so important in these dialogues as so many love to ignore the individual expression and speak from a place of 'Nothingness' and in the process, missing the whole point of relativity. So, for Source itself, it's just a game perhaps in its own mind where each of its aspects are experienced simultaneously. Time/Space provides that environment for perceived growth by the limitations of the physical experience. Without experience, its dream characters can not grow and learn. (Dream characters again, are just Source's own thoughts). So, lo and behold, experience is ultimately all that matters. It's in experience itself where feelings/sensations/emotions take place.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:36 pm

rachMiel wrote:I yo-yo between:

Inquiring like a madman. As if my life depended on it ... ;-)

and

Simply living, with pretty much no effort to become anything other than what I am in the moment, warts 'n all.


I like the sound of your approach. It reminds me of putting effort into riding a bike up a hill and then enjoying the freedom that comes in taking your feet off the pedals when you go downhill. That oscillation between effort and effortlessness works wonders in my own experience.

In that respect I follow a similar approach. I don't have a specific practice from a specific tradition. Life experience brings me to certain ways of being that work well for a given time and then fall away as new life experience brings me to new ways of being.

I'll try and be specific about what I have been doing recently. It may not make sense to other people, as we all have our own ways based on our own experiences at this particular time - but I will try as I think it's an interesting challenge to try and translate experience into words.

At the moment I bring myself (myself as a vibrant energetic awareness) into the sensations of my experience (be they physical, mental, emotional). Sometimes this is as a kind of effortful lovingness where thoughts cease and instead I experience these sensations convert from a kind of tense painfulness into a relaxed radiance. Sometimes it is as an effortlessness free falling releasing sensation - where the sensation and all the context that define that sensation seems to collapse into an expansive openness. Put more simply, I bring my awareness into the sensations of my experience and allow that experience within the spaciousness of my awareness - resulting in the tensions wound into my being becoming unwound into relaxation.

rachMiel wrote:Sometimes I think of it like golf. You practice like mad, obsess on technique, make huge efforts to understand and improve. And then, when you're out on the course, you let it all go and simply play!


I don't know much about golf, but I like this :)
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:13 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:There is no 'if' - experience is by energy in motion at different densities & frequencies of experience itself. Potentials are infinite, and all occurring NOW for there is no other 'time' and there is no other 'place'. NO thing is outside the effect and affect of energy in motion at different densities and frequencies - that's what experience is.


Mmm I think this is important. It synchronises nicely with a channelling I did with a friend recently where we [Jack's higher aspects] said "focus less of what if, more on what is".

We've been working to created a suitable answer to this question. Below is our attempt:

The original question was "what ultimately matters"? We will address this question.

First, let us define the terms. "Ultimate" is an extremely important term. Ultimate is synonymous with Absolute and Unconditional and Truth (with a capital T). These terms are capitalised to emphasise that we are not speaking here about partial Absolute, or relative Truth etc. But rather with that which is TRULY ABSOLUTE. For anything to meet this criteria it must be TOTALLY absent of change. It must be UTTERLY constant. If it changes, even by the most minute amount, it is no longer constant. It is not Absolute. If it's value is dependent IN ANY WAY on any other factor, it is not Unconditonal. It is conditional.

This Unconditional Constant is known as Spirit / Emptiness / Tao etc. It is our True Nature as Pure Awareness. It is the Creator of all manifest reality - the origin of all that is. Relatively speaking, it IS this manifest reality. Absolutely speaking, it IS only Spirit.

The way we interpret the question is that RM is asking whether All That Is has a purpose. To answer this, we must consider the different levels of existence and the role of purpose within reality and the context in which that purpose takes place.

If a nut falls from a tree and hits the ground, what is the purpose of this event? Has the tree defined a purpose for itself in that moment to release the nut to the ground? Did that event require the definition of that purpose in order for that event to take place? Was the event dependent on the definition of purpose?

If a squirrel picks up the nut and starts to eat it, what is the purpose now? Is the squirrel considering the purpose? Is the tree? Would the event require the consideration of this purpose?

If I am watching the squirrel eat the nut, what is the purpose now? Do I need to have a purpose planned in order to experience this event? Could the event happen without a purpose?

If I am considering whether or not there is a purpose to my watching the squirrel eating the nut, what is the purpose now?

For any of these events, purpose can be attributed. For none of these events, is the attribution of purpose a requirement.

What Is is not dependent on purpose, though purpose IS dependent on What Is.

The tree releasing the nut is what is - the tree did not give it purpose. It does not require purpose.

The squirrel eating the nut is what is - the squirrel did not give it purpose. It does not require purpose.

Me watching the squirrel eating the nut is what is - I did not give it purpose. It does not require purpose.

Me considering whether or not there is a purpose to the squirrel eating the nut is what is - I MAY give it purpose. It does not require purpose.

Everything that exists is completely validated simply by existing as it is. This includes any perception of purpose, but is not LIMITED to any / every perception of purpose.

The Ultimate is Unconditional. The exclusive application of any purpose immediately applies a condition. Thus, the Unconditional is now conditional. The moment you apply a requirement of meaning on what is you have moved away from the pure essence of that which is the complete Oneness of Truth.

Labeling and the applications of conditions is the way to BOTH the raising and the falling of your vibration as vibrational beings (manifested entities). Whether you rise or fall is dependent on the degree to which the direction of your conditioning is toward (rising) or against (falling) alignment with the Unconditional Self, which is your Spirit Self - the Absolute. The more you release from yourselves the requirement for 'What Is' to Be or Not Be ANYTHING, the more you BECOME that Absolute Self. The more you resolve the conditions that are stored energetically within your being, the more you release yourself from the fetters of those conditions and BECOME that which is Unconditional.

The question "what ultimately matters" is potentially a movement toward or away from alignment with Spirit depending upon the perspective that utilises the question. If this question leads to more labels and conditions, you move away from Spirit. If this question leads to less labels and conditions, you move toward Spirit.

The less rigid your answers to this question. The more accepting you are of this question and all other questions arising in your experience. The more you become Spirit - which does not question nor define, for doing so would be to change which is fundamentally not the nature of Spirit.

We hope this doesn't confuse things further.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby rachMiel » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:02 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:First, let us define the terms. "Ultimate" is an extremely important term. Ultimate is synonymous with Absolute and Unconditional and Truth (with a capital T). These terms are capitalised to emphasise that we are not speaking here about partial Absolute, or relative Truth etc. But rather with that which is TRULY ABSOLUTE. For anything to meet this criteria it must be TOTALLY absent of change. It must be UTTERLY constant. If it changes, even by the most minute amount, it is no longer constant. It is not Absolute. If it's value is dependent IN ANY WAY on any other factor, it is not Unconditonal. It is conditional.

Jacks, to broaden your perspectives, consider that in other schools of thought, ultimate truth is characterized differently.

For example, in both Buddhism and process philosophy (Whitehead, et al), ultimate reality is not seen as fixed and unconditional ... rather: ever-changing and causally interconnected. Per Whitehead, even God evolves. :-)
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:27 pm

Nice post Jack. I enjoyed hearing from your higher selves once again.

I think this is why it's a matter of context and asking for purpose is a very nebulous question. I agree with Jack's post in that purpose in a certain context, is really a matter of what you make of it or how you perceive it.

Yet, purpose in a different context, is again....experience. Whatever is experienced, regardless of how conscious or unconscious the experience appears to be, is what matters.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby DavidB » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:33 pm

Ultimately, all that matters is what's happening right now, if you don't mind what happens. :)
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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