Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby rachMiel » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:57 pm

DavidB wrote:Ultimately, all that matters is what's happening right now, if you don't mind what happens. :)

From what frame of reference?

For example, does what's happening in my mind right now matter ultimately to you? To all sentient beings? To the totality? Or just to my particular mind?
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:59 pm

Rach said: For example, does what's happening in my mind right now matter ultimately to you? To all sentient beings? To the totality? Or just to my particular mind?

The 'ground zero' of the activity of your mind impact most energetically on you, and radiate out from you, based on the intensity of energies that you 'choose' to feed into and from it, within the infinite possibilities. They may dissipate if you let go of them, or grow in energetic intensity in order to create, if any, reactions, responses.

eg: if you're having a loving thought - your body will respond to those 'created' energies differently to feeding energy into a fearful thought - the tensions and releases of energies will be felt most keenly by you, but depending on the linkage and leakage of your energies towards and from others it will radiate outwards. Where it 'touches' another, is felt and interpreted, the primary 'response' then is no longer yours.

The wider we go in awareness of cause>effect>evolution, the less personal it is known because it is fed into by unlimited interpretations-responses - in energy flow and dynamic.

So it does/does not matter simultaneously.

It does matter in the sense that it is feeding into the all, but it doesn't in the sense that the all accommodates all potentials unconditionally.

Ultimately the all is the equilibrium of all potentials, eternally.

The closer we are to 'ground zero' the more keenly the experience is personalised in perception & judged in perspective to 'matter'.

A raindrop falling into the ocean is just h20 meeting h20 with a tiny difference in the elemental structure. Therefore energetic resonances are of a more 'harmonious', nature. A plank of wood falling onto the ocean is more elementally 'different' in structure and therefore takes longer and more energetic activity for those elements to melt seamlessly into the 'all' of the ocean - but melt it will.

The same of mind activity, the more 'different' the densities and frequencies of the energies at work are, the more 'activity' / experience occurs to break it back down to equilibrium.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:30 am

Makes sense.

The more you live from a perceived I-center (ego) the more your experience matters to this I-center.

The more you live from/in the totality (what is, filtered of course through your particular mind) the less your experience matters to the I-center, and the more it matters to ... the totality (not-I).

You know I've used "matters" so much in this thread that it's kind of lost its meaning for me ... as repeated words are wont to do. What does it even mean to say "this matters." Or: This matters ULTIMATELY. Is it a value judgment? A feeling? A filling of a painful void? A longing to have some Primal Authority Figure tell me I'm doing the right thing?
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:17 am

Can you now see that 'ultimately' no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience?

Rach said: You know I've used "matters" so much in this thread that it's kind of lost its meaning for me ... as repeated words are wont to do. What does it even mean to say "this matters." Or: This matters ULTIMATELY. Is it a value judgment? A feeling? A filling of a painful void? A longing to have some Primal Authority Figure tell me I'm doing the right thing?

It means whatever it means to you Rach, and often it means different things at different times.
Whether it's a 'matter' under consideration, or 'matter' itself (having definable properties)

Noun
1. physical substance in general, as distinct from mind and spirit; (in physics) that which occupies space and possesses rest mass, especially as distinct from energy.

2. a subject or situation under consideration.
synonyms: affair, business, proceeding, situation, circumstance, event, happening, occurrence, incident, episode, occasion, experience, thing;

verb
1.
be important or significant.



The interesting 'definition' of matter the noun to matter the verb is that it becomes personal & subjective.
Matter the noun is impersonal until it's processed into a positive or negative verb by 'someone' who places value on it.

Eg matter 1. noun might be ice cream or dog poo - and the difference only 'matters' to 'someone' interacting with it.
matter 2. noun is present tense interpreting of the 'values' of those examples in the list above eg: experience.

Matter verb is personalised, judgement, opinion, labelling etc which while maybe not as 'concrete' as the dog poo/ice cream, takes up 'space' as well, even if only in our own minds. This is the one that 'who says?' is a good qualifier to apply to it.

I don't know why it made me think of The Invitation by Oriah Mountain Dreamer, maybe these are things I think 'matter'. (?)

THE INVITATION

It doesn't interest me what you do for a living. I want to know what you ache for, and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart's longing.

It doesn't interest me how old you are. I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool for love, for your dream, for the adventure of being alive.

It doesn't interest me what planets are squaring your moon. I want to know if you have touched the center of your own sorrow, if you have been opened by life's betrayals, or have become shrivelled and closed from fear of further pain. I want to know if you can sit with pain, mine or your own, without moving to hide it or fade it, or fix it.

I want to know if you can be with joy, mine or your own, if you can dance with wildness and let the ecstasy fill you to the tips of your fingers and toes without cautioning us to be careful, to be realistic, to remember the limitations of being human.

It doesn't interest me if the story you are telling me is true. I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; if you can bear the accusation of betrayal and not betray your own soul; if you can be faithless and therefore trustworthy.

I want to know if you can see beauty even when it's not pretty, every day, and if you can source your own life from its presence.

I want to know if you can live with failure, yours and mine, and still stand on the edge of the lake and shout to the silver of the full moon, “Yes!”

It doesn't interest me to know where you live or how much money you have. I want to know if you can get up, after the night of grief and despair, weary and bruised to the bone, and do what needs to be done to feed the children.

It doesn't interest me who you know or how you came to be here. I want to know if you will stand in the center of the fire with me and not shrink back.

It doesn't interest me where or what or with whom you have studied. I want to know what sustains you, from the inside, when all else falls away.

I want to know if you can be alone with yourself and if you truly like the company you keep in the empty moments.

by
Oriah Mountain Dreamer
copyright © 1999 by Oriah Mountain Dreamer.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby DavidB » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:49 am

rachMiel wrote:
DavidB wrote:Ultimately, all that matters is what's happening right now, if you don't mind what happens. :)

From what frame of reference?

For example, does what's happening in my mind right now matter ultimately to you? To all sentient beings? To the totality? Or just to my particular mind?


I should clarify that sentence;

Ultimately, all that matters is what's happening right now. If you don't mind what happens, nothing matters. Eckhart tells us that only one thing matters absolutely (ultimately).

Many things in your life matter, but only one thing matters absolutely.

It matters whether you succeed or fail in the eyes of the world. It matters whether you are healthy or not healthy, whether you are educated or not educated. It matter whether you are rich or poor — it certainly makes a difference in your life. Yes, all these things matter, relatively speaking, but they don't matter absolutely.

There is something that matters more than any of those things and that is finding the essence of who you are beyond that short-lived entity, that short-lived personalized sense of self.

Eckhart Tolle
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:33 pm

Tolle wrote:There is something that matters more than any of those things and that is finding the essence of who you are beyond that short-lived entity, that short-lived personalized sense of self.

This assumes that you ARE in fact something beyond the sense of self ... and that the essence of this is find-able.

A variant that covers more bases:

What matters is exploring the possibility that you are an essence beyond the self.

I.e. it's the looking that ultimately matters ... the process.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby Rob X » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:08 pm

rachMiel wrote:
EnterZenFromThere wrote:First, let us define the terms. "Ultimate" is an extremely important term. Ultimate is synonymous with Absolute and Unconditional and Truth (with a capital T). These terms are capitalised to emphasise that we are not speaking here about partial Absolute, or relative Truth etc. But rather with that which is TRULY ABSOLUTE. For anything to meet this criteria it must be TOTALLY absent of change. It must be UTTERLY constant. If it changes, even by the most minute amount, it is no longer constant. It is not Absolute. If it's value is dependent IN ANY WAY on any other factor, it is not Unconditonal. It is conditional.

Jacks, to broaden your perspectives, consider that in other schools of thought, ultimate truth is characterized differently.

For example, in both Buddhism and process philosophy (Whitehead, et al), ultimate reality is not seen as fixed and unconditional ... rather: ever-changing and causally interconnected. Per Whitehead, even God evolves. :-)


Yes. In Buddhism the only constant is change - every apparent thing is empty of inherent existence and is dependently arisen. This is the (Mahayana) Buddhist conception of emptiness. This constancy of change is so thorough going that in fact it is said that there are no things to be found that are changing - all there is is the ever-changing unformed reality. The ontological nature of this 'unformed reality' is not really discussed in Buddhism as it recognises the limitation of metaphysical speculation.

In parallel to Buddhism, Pantheism sees the Universe as not other than God (or the absolute.) The Universe (undivided turning) meaning everything conceivable in all of its coming and going. This is similar to 'the Way' of Taoism.

There are big problems with the suggestion that the Absolute equals changelessness - not least that the absence of change could never be experienced/known since the very nature of experience implies change at some level.

Fixed ideas about the Absolute are inherently problematic. The creative ground or Absolute (Reality, Being, God, Consciousness) is HERE, it's THIS… it's in plain sight. We can know that it IS (though we might overlook it), but what it is, why it is, how it works and so on… is, in my view, beyond the reach of human cognition.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:26 pm

And the ceaselessness of change is experientially available to pretty much everyone, no esoteric skills involved. So you can check it out in the lab of self. :-)
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby DavidB » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:10 am

rachMiel wrote:
Tolle wrote:There is something that matters more than any of those things and that is finding the essence of who you are beyond that short-lived entity, that short-lived personalized sense of self.

This assumes that you ARE in fact something beyond the sense of self ... and that the essence of this is find-able.

A variant that covers more bases:

What matters is exploring the possibility that you are an essence beyond the self.

I.e. it's the looking that ultimately matters ... the process.


Yes, but only until that essence has been found, then the process serves no further purpose. And not found in a literal sense though, but rather by realizing that the "short-lived entity, that short-lived personalized sense of self" is ultimately an illusion.

For example, If I'm lost in the wilderness on a journey to find my way back home, and then one day I eventually find that home, then I no longer need to be looking. To continue on that journey, continually looking for home would be no longer necessary, no longer matters.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby rachMiel » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:01 am

DavidB wrote:
rachMiel wrote:I.e. it's the looking that ultimately matters ... the process.

Yes, but only until that essence has been found, then the process serves no further purpose. And not found in a literal sense though, but rather by realizing that the "short-lived entity, that short-lived personalized sense of self" is ultimately an illusion.

For example, If I'm lost in the wilderness on a journey to find my way back home, and then one day I eventually find that home, then I no longer need to be looking. To continue on that journey, continually looking for home would be no longer necessary, no longer matters.

Agreed. :-)

But I wonder if "home" is not a place (state of mind, knowledge) ... rather a dynamic process? So "being home" does not mean sitting in unmoving silence on your favorite armchair in the middle of the universe ... rather giving yourself over to the ever-changing flow of the universe, letting yourself be carried along by the crazy ride of existence.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby DavidB » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:45 am

rachMiel wrote:
DavidB wrote:
rachMiel wrote:I.e. it's the looking that ultimately matters ... the process.

Yes, but only until that essence has been found, then the process serves no further purpose. And not found in a literal sense though, but rather by realizing that the "short-lived entity, that short-lived personalized sense of self" is ultimately an illusion.

For example, If I'm lost in the wilderness on a journey to find my way back home, and then one day I eventually find that home, then I no longer need to be looking. To continue on that journey, continually looking for home would be no longer necessary, no longer matters.

Agreed. :-)

But I wonder if "home" is not a place (state of mind, knowledge) ... rather a dynamic process? So "being home" does not mean sitting in unmoving silence on your favorite armchair in the middle of the universe ... rather giving yourself over to the ever-changing flow of the universe, letting yourself be carried along by the crazy ride of existence.


Yeah absolutely. Being at home, is a deep sense of allowing, an acceptance of whatever the universe happens to be manifesting. In this sense, there is no self, except for that self that is content to be in the flow of manifestation, an inner flow and an outer flow, it's all the same. You become the witness, so to speak, where everything is allowed to be as it is. What is, already is anyway, so there is never any need to resist it. Any resistance, is only ever going to take oneself out of the mode of acceptance and create suffering. Eckhart says, that if you cannot accept what is, then accept how you feel about it. If we find ourselves manifesting anger for example, then accept that anger is manifesting, that the pain body is manifesting anger, which in itself is a form of resistance. Allow that anger to be there, as it is already there anyway. In this way, the manifestation of anger is surrounded by awareness, and becomes our greatest teacher.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby randomguy » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:37 pm

Yep. Home is simply realizing one is already home, that un-home is a dream.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:04 am

I've been exploring the wisdoms of Mary O'Malley - this gem -

Life is set up
to bring up
what has been bound up
so it can
open up
to be freed up
so you can
show up
for life.

Mary O'Malley

For me, it speaks to the 'globs' and light trails of energy seen in and of experience.

What is held must be released, in order for it to be released it must be known for what it truly is.

The 'mis-takes' of the mind, judging this or that with tenacity, rather than touching it with curiosity, determines the density of the 'matter', brings it to life - slows it down, makes it tangible, 'real'.

It speaks to my Granny's 'what's for you won't go by you'.

What's for you to understand and let go the fear of, will stop awhile until it is known for what it truly is, rather than the distortion of it that molds it into a 'glob' of energy, rather than the free flowing energy that it is.
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:22 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:For me, it speaks to the 'globs' and light trails of energy seen in and of experience.

What is held must be released, in order for it to be released it must be known for what it truly is.


I read the article as well. My question for you is, in your own interpretation, how can it be known for what it truly is in order to release it? And what is it, truly, if you don't mind me asking?
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Re: Campfire tales too: What ultimately MATTERS?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:49 am

I read the article as well. My question for you is, in your own interpretation, how can it be known for what it truly is in order to release it? And what is it, truly, if you don't mind me asking?

hmm, big Question E2B :wink:

The overarching answer I guess (the 'big' one) 'what is it, truly' is it just is - life /energy in motion, based on a multiplicity of energies feeding into...what is 'bound up' is what is interpreted and the interpretation held onto.

i'm not sure if that answers your question E2B ?

I guess I'm taking it from the globs and light streams in the light (ala nde) what I 'thought' stuff was, most especially the stuff I'd overlaid with fear or judgement or taken offence over, was not at all what I had thought it was, and no where near as 'solid' or unmoving, definitive, or 'black and white' as I had made it appear to myself.

In and of itself it's (all) just energy in motion. When we slow it enough, stop it enough - as she says 'bound up' it does just sit there waiting to be freed. What it takes to free it is knowing it from more perspectives than we previously interpreted it with - the there but for grace goes/is...

How do you interpret it?
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