Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

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Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

Postby Nyseto » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:52 am

I feel like the more I look into spirituality, the more I have to think about. Isn't it all just about throwing away all concepts such as awareness, presence, spirituality, as well as the throwing away of all of these and just remaining as "I don't know"? Is it all just about that there is absolutely nothing to be aware of? I've listened to mooji, eckhart, ramana, osho, nisargadatta, adyashanti, alan watts, and rupert spira by the way and the closest thing that got me to experiencing this "stillness" is my signature. They're are all talking about something big but it's not anywhere close to that. Is that how it's supposed to be or am I not following them correctly?
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

Postby kiki » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:00 am

Concepts are the starting point when talking about this to others or trying to understand it for yourself; no concept, however, is required to actually realize the truth of what you are, or to be what you are. Concepts are pointers only, and the sooner you can drop them the better so that you can simply rest in/as "knowingness".

This knowingness is the ground of being, of existence, and its main characteristics are that it is aware, alert, silent, and still. Beingness has nothing to do with being a particular entity with a name and form. In other words, beneath every idea of "me" there is this alert stillness that is aware of everything that arises. And if nothing arises (thought, emotion, sensation) then it is the state of knowing nothing arises. So there no longer remains a mind created entity (ego/me) to claim ownership of something.

It's not "something big", but rather, it is something quite ordinary. It is just the ordinary awareness that is always present, and that awareness is the "light" that illuminates everything that comes before it. When nothing comes before it it simply shines because that is its nature. In other words, it reveals itself to itself. The realization that you are that is awakening. Consciously abiding as that is what is referred to as enlightenment.

That awareness is not a thing; it has no form - that's why it is sometimes described as being "spacious" and open, like the sky. So you can't put awareness under a microscope and look at it as though it were a thing. Attempting to do that would be like trying to take a piece of space and examining it. You can't do that because space has no form, so how would it be possible to "slice" a piece off of it to examine it? There are no edges or boundaries to it, and yet because space is present all forms have room to exist and then dissolve. Similarly, because awareness is present all forms are known to arise and dissolve. Awareness is alert to the arising and dissolving of every form, and it is silent and still in its alertness.

By the way, welcome to the forum.

kiki
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Re: Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

Postby Nyseto » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:13 am

I see. And this state of knowingness, to know yourself as that, means that you rest as "I dont know anything" or just remaining mentally choiceless. Anytime I am thinking, it is because I want to know something but it turns out I don't know. Now when I stay as "I don't know", then the opposite happens: I know. But it is a silent knowing. Is that along the lines of it?
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Re: Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

Postby Nyseto » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:41 am

I guess awareness is just confidence, the opposite of mental masturbation..simply put.

As far as being your true self, (which is universal presence), does it express itself differently from person to person? Or is that based on conditioning?
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Re: Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

Postby kiki » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:36 am

I see. And this state of knowingness, to know yourself as that, means that you rest as "I dont know anything" or just remaining mentally choiceless.


You rest as awareness, choosing nothing. There is no personal "I" to choose anything. Making a "choice" implies an entity/me/ego that would make a choice. That entity is entirely mind created; it doesn't exist as an actual entity apart from thought.

Anytime I am thinking, it is because I want to know something but it turns out I don't know. Now when I stay as "I don't know", then the opposite happens: I know. But it is a silent knowing. Is that along the lines of it?


That "I" that wants or needs to know is a mind generated character. Without thought providing the support for that character it's nowhere to be found. Without that mind created character what remains is the silent and still "not knowing" that you are talking about. But there is no entity, no separate I that says, "I don't know." This is hard to put into words, but it's the knowingness of not knowing.

I guess awareness is just confidence, the opposite of mental masturbation..simply put.


It is the opposite of mental masturbation, but I wouldn't characterize is as "confidence".

As far as being your true self, (which is universal presence), does it express itself differently from person to person? Or is that based on conditioning?


True self is universal, the same for everyone. Unlike the formless true self, each expression in the world of form is a unique expression. Conditioning is a definite factor in how forms present themselves to others.
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Re: Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

Postby Nyseto » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:08 am

I see. It is just so hard to stay present. I find it's not mentally hard, I can easily let go of thoughts until my mind quiets down. What makes it hard is being present with feelings. Is it true that in order to feel any real joy, you have to first be present with the very negative feelings? Meditation is not a peaceful activity at all. It makes me aware of things I don't want to be aware of.
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Re: Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:13 pm

> Isn't it all just about throwing away all concepts such as awareness, presence, spirituality, as well as the throwing away of all of these and just remaining as "I don't know"?

Great exchange you're having with kiki! Just wanted to add a slightly different perspective to the mix that might be useful to you:

"Throwing away" concepts by attempting to banish them from your conscious mind does way more harm than good. It's also, in the long run, an impossible task. What *is* possible is to cultivate the ability to *see* the concepts for what they are: mental constructs, pointers, metaphors ... and for what they are not: the real things they attempt to point to.

Ditto for living in a (stateless) state of "I don't know." You can't force it, it needs to come of its own, from a down-to-the-bones understanding of what makes things (including you) tick.

The moral of the story (for all of us): Keep digging! Keep unpeeling the layers of the reality onion, and let nature take care of your transformation. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

Postby kiki » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:05 pm

Is it true that in order to feel any real joy, you have to first be present with the very negative feelings? Meditation is not a peaceful activity at all. It makes me aware of things I don't want to be aware of.


What you are is the observer of everything, including all states of emotion and mental activity. You are what is always present, and everything else is what comes and goes. What you are has no preference, and gives space to everything. To have a preference is a function of ego/mind, and that tendency must be seen for what it is in order to abide in peace. Therefore, every state between and including joy and sorrow has equal validity in the world of form, so being present with negative feelings and thoughts is vital.

Meditation is a useful tool in waking up because it exposes what's happening on a moment to moment basis. When first beginning it is a shock to realize just how active the mind is, and the egoic tendency is to resist those thoughts and then to try to eliminate them because "peace" is wanted. This wanting is a function of mind. Continue to meditate without expectation of some preferred state and eventually the mind will settle down and even cease for periods of time. Eventually those periods will become longer and longer, but a permanent no-thought state will not come. Why? Because mind is a necessary and useful tool for the practical things that confront us. It isn't necessary, however, to be churning out thoughts continuously. Meditation is helpful in discerning when mind is useful and when it isn't, and as that discernment sharpens it becomes easier to let it drop away when not needed. So meditation is a skill that strengthens this discernment.

The desire to change what currently is arising is what stands in the way of consciously abiding in peace. Any "joyful" or ecstatic state that comes will also go, so you cannot have any expectation that that kind of experience will be a permanent experience, so trying to cling to it is futile and will only cause pain when it inevitably goes. The same goes for sorrow; any attempt to get rid of it will only help to keep it in place. But what IS permanent is you/awareness, and the nature of you is "peace". This means that one's joyful experience has an underlying peace to it, and so does every sorrowful experience. One can feel peace always because you are always present as awareness. So the bottom line is: be present with whatever arises; feel it fully without trying to cling to or resist it.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Is it all just about resting as "not knowing"?

Postby Nyseto » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:00 pm

I was at a point where I got addicted to drugs and after I quit, I had a lot of anxiety and depression unlike anything else in my life. It's all gone now but I think it was that my presence was greatly weakend by it. I quit smoking cigarettes 11 days ago as well because I felt like it was just an unconscious habit, an avoidance of now. I find if I don't mind the mind, I can still think but it comes as insights. It's not "outloud" thinking, just aha moments.
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