Lies

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Lies

Postby Ervin » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:49 pm

I am interested in opinion from members of this forum on the subject of lies. Is it ok and if it is at times, then when. Would it come back to us? What I mean by that is would we be affected by lies in a way that it would affect our ability to sense the truth about the Source?

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Re: Lies

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:16 pm

Here's how I see it. It's not about the right and wrong of lying, it's about expansion and contraction of consciousness and being. How does lying feel? If what we say, think, and do feels detrimental to our happiness then our alignment with Source is likely contracting. If we feel better for our actions, we are likely expanding with our Source alignment. And it's not just about lying, but about deception in general.

Lying/deception is mostly born of resistance to what is. And resistance to what is separates us from the Source Being that is inherent within that particular aspect of all that is. Inclusion is expansive. Resistance is contracting. It is through our feeling nature that we discern our true relationship with Source in any given moment.

Probably most important is not whether we lie to others, but do we lie to ourselves. The more we can be honest with ourselves the more we can be honest with others.

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Re: Lies

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:06 pm

Well said WW
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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:52 pm

I think intention has a lot to do with it.

Lying to lessen suffering is very different from lying to promote suffering.

For example, a spiritual teacher might "lie" (by omission, etc.) to a student to prevent that student from suffering if presented with the unbridled truth at that stage in their development. This is an act of kindness and responsible instruction. If, instead, the teacher lied to promote their own power or ego, this would be an act of malice.

That's one of the reasons spiritual teaching is so hard ... you have to know what the student needs to hear at that moment.
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Re: Lies

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:10 pm

rachMiel wrote:I think intention has a lot to do with it.

Lying to lessen suffering is very different from lying to promote suffering.

That seems to me to be a slippery slope. If I'm cheating on my wife, should I lie to her because to tell her the truth would cause her suffering? Who decides what another aught be protected from and when? Or is it my own suffering I'm trying to avoid in my lies? Should a child lie to his parents to protect them from the knowledge of his or her misbehavior? Suffering is a part of life and there is much to be learned from its creation. But if one hides from it, avoids it through lying, is that really the best course of action?

Dangerous ground here. How does it feel?

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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:53 pm

Yes, slippery for sure.

To do it right, you need to have a good understanding of the big picture: what makes you and the other person(s) tick.
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Re: Lies

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:25 pm

rachMiel wrote:Yes, slippery for sure.

To do it right, you need to have a good understanding of the big picture: what makes you and the other person(s) tick.

How would you recommend one gain this 'good understanding'? And what do you suggest is the 'big picture' in this context? Wouldn't want to presume too much, so a little guidance please.

And if one doesn't have such an understanding as you suggest, how would you recommend they proceed with their interaction with others?

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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:38 am

Webwanderer wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Yes, slippery for sure.

To do it right, you need to have a good understanding of the big picture: what makes you and the other person(s) tick.

How would you recommend one gain this 'good understanding'?

Become a passionate student of human nature? Pay attention? Care about lessening suffering? Go for the big picture?

And what do you suggest is the 'big picture' in this context?

A global view of the main parties involved, the interaction dynamics, likely outcomes.

And if one doesn't have such an understanding as you suggest, how would you recommend they proceed with their interaction with others?

Carefully. ;-)
Last edited by rachMiel on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lies

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:37 am

I am interested in opinion from members of this forum on the subject of lies. Is it ok and if it is at times, then when. Would it come back to us? What I mean by that is would we be affected by lies in a way that it would affect our ability to sense the truth about the Source?


Only if we believe the lies Ervin :wink:
It would affect our ability to sense the truth about Source if we believed it, if/when we realise the untruth of it, then the truth of all things becomes clear.

The truth is we (likely) all lie (tell untruths, distort what 'is') in unawareness, and more consciously in fear - when we know that we are doing it, but still in unawareness that the fear is 'false emotions/expectations appearing real.
When we lie to ourselves in unawareness, we do not know that we do not know, and so we are 'blameless'. There will still be natural unfolding consequences - as there are to all things under the sun. When we lie in fear we are linking in to the energy of the fear - and that in turn will arise for us to know - to gain more understanding of and about.

When we lie in fear we do so to try to subvert the natural unfolding of consequences, and often we make a bigger mess of things and create more fear, which in turn will add more layers of deception, blindly in ignorance or awarely while experiencing more fear in rejection of what is.

It's why people feel 'relief' when the truth finally comes out - the tensions, the balls of fear, are all released and then the 'natural' consequences - the effect from the original cause is freed from the energy of fear that has bound it to us, and can move as it would have if it had just been accepted / acknowledged in the first place.

My Dad was a stickler for 'telling the truth', growing up under his guidance I (falsely)by punishment and constant reinforcement came to believe that 'good' people don't lie - and so it left me totally defenceless in the face of what is a pretty common reaction to fear in many situations. Far better when I accepted that for many different reasons, in many different situations, with many different fears and avoidances, good people do lie, including me. I then could move into becoming more aware of the distortion of the truth occurring in fear - and testing the accuracy of the fear, shedding light on those falsities that the later ones are built upon. The 'survival' of the ego fears - that we're not enough / will not /do not have enough, that we are not loved, that we will lose something etc etc etc which are their own distortions of the truth.

Rach said: Lying to lessen suffering is very different from lying to promote suffering.

Both are only temporary avoidance of the truth, so just prolonging the substance of suffering, even if it's clouded in unawareness or ignorance. The thing with it is that it makes people doubt their natural instincts that something is not 'right' because they have no where to go with the instinct that is being shut down or denied.

Having said that, if one goes to awareness, capacity & willingness to face the truth, things get more clear that cause-effect of lying or avoiding the truth are more important to understand and become aware of, than any rightness-wrongness of them.

They can also be a 'protective' measure to allow time-space-room for growth in awareness and acceptance of reality, when we don't realise that what we are protecting (image, reputation, falsity about who we are) is not 'real' (the whole truth) either.
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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:06 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Rach said: Lying to lessen suffering is very different from lying to promote suffering.

Both are only temporary avoidance of the truth, so just prolonging the substance of suffering, even if it's clouded in unawareness or ignorance.

Not necessarily. Timing can make a big difference. A person who is not ready for the truth might be harmed by hearing it. That same person might be ready and benefit from the truth a year later.
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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:10 pm

I thought more about the ethics of lying, and one of the things that occurred to me was that sometimes lying is the right thing to do, and that it can take courage to tell a right lie.

For example, let's say you've just found out that your job is probably going to be cut and are emotionally devastated. You'd like nothing more than to share this news with your husband and get comforted by him. But, he's busily preparing for really important and very difficult oral exams, and you know him well enough to realize that this news will ruin his concentration.

The right thing to do imo is to lie, by omission ... simply don't mention it. The courage comes in because (1) society says lying is bad; (2) your husband trusts you to be honest with him; (3) you're on your own with your fears/sorrow about losing your job.
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Re: Lies

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:27 am

Rach said: For example, let's say you've just found out that your job is probably going to be cut and are emotionally devastated. You'd like nothing more than to share this news with your husband and get comforted by him. But, he's busily preparing for really important and very difficult oral exams, and you know him well enough to realize that this news will ruin his concentration.

The right thing to do imo is to lie, by omission ... simply don't mention it. The courage comes in because (1) society says lying is bad; (2) your husband trusts you to be honest with him; (3) you're on your own with your fears/sorrow about losing your job.


Rach, this is in part what I meant about that a lie can occur in fear - if you go to the fear element, whether sharing it with another or even in how you are speaking to your self - losing the job has not occurred - the emotions are based on fear being projected into a future in which you are not - you, your awareness, your capacity and your willingness to be present in a reality is not with you, that's why you're upset. Not because of your actual reality, but because of your feared reality - layer on layer on layer of deceptions and fears about what 'might' or even 'will' happen, but outside of actuality wherein you (and your partner) can actually respond to it.

The lies (for me) in the above scenario are your own, to yourself, creating your own sense of suffering, And yes it would be honest to say I'm upset, --- but the truth is you are upsetting yourself with your fears - false expectations/emotions appearing real.

IF and WHEN you do lose your job you will do what you can - just fearing losing your job you can do nothing about losing your job because you are not there yet.

Does that make sense of it matters only if you believe it? (the lies based on fear that you are telling your self, and if you were in your perspective 'weaker' and shared those fears with your partner.)

What if you did tell your partner you were upset and they said, thank you for being honest, I could feel you were upset and I didn't know why, I was scared you were upset with me because I've been so preoccupied with this exam. We'll worry about it if and when it happens, and we will be okay because we have a love that is honest and not dictated to by fear and making illusions real.
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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:54 am

Yes, good point ... the emotionally/spiritually healthier you are, the less likely you might be to find yourself in situations where lying would be an option. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't occasionally crop up.

Qualifying the previous example, let's say you knew you were going to lose your job, knew you could not find an equal paying job, and knew that the financial well being of you and your husband depended on your salary, since he was a student. Being spiritually mature, you feel no fear, only the actuality of the situation. But ... you also know that your husband will be an emotional wreck if you tell him, and that he needs to feel good to get his studying done for this oral exam, which is crucial for his career.

Whaddya do? Tell him the truth and risk great suffering for him and the relationship? Or lie by omission ... and wait for a more appropriate time to spill the beans?
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Re: Lies

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:53 am

honesty is the highest form of love Rach.

IF you are in a relationship of trust.... then you are in a relationship of trust, trust in you, trust in them, trust in life - it will be what it can be, not necessarily what we fear it will be.

I'm reminded, angels don't worry about you, they believe in you.

If each of you were to 'hide' all the things one thought the other would worry about, in worry, for worry's sake... slippery slope as WW said.

I'm not saying be harmful with fears, I'm not saying dramatise what is unto the inth degree of fear and worry, stay with what is, as it is, even to admitting fears as and when they are, not to burden a partner with them, but to share who you are and what you are experiencing in this moment.

What if, all by them self the partner 'fails' the exam?
Would you love them any less?
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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:04 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:honesty is the highest form of love

Honesty is great, as long as it isn't self serving (to make the truth teller feel virtuous) and doesn't cause unnecessary suffering.
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